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      08-23-2007, 09:42 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Stahlgrau View Post
Lack of decent brakes? I guess that'd depend on your definition of "decent".

I'd say the M3 brakes are at least decent. The best $$$ can buy? Nope.
I was about to make that point, but didn't want to get labeled a BMW fanboy on a BMW site...
Also, argument should be "on a $60k performance car".
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      08-23-2007, 09:54 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
I was about to make that point, but didn't want to get labeled a BMW fanboy on a BMW site...
Also, argument should be "on a $60k performance car".
60k after options? we'll see...
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      08-23-2007, 09:55 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stahlgrau View Post
Lack of decent brakes? I guess that'd depend on your definition of "decent".

I'd say the M3 brakes are at least decent. The best $$$ can buy? Nope.
decent = doesn't fade after a few laps at lime rock (not a heavy braking track).
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      08-23-2007, 10:11 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
In paraphrasing Todd, BMW electronics are notoriously horrid. ...... then I read on M5 board about all the SMG failures and BMW's refusal to CPO the cars or offer extended warranties.
I've spent a few hours on the M5Boards myself and the situation there is horrid. Cars are hitting the resale market now under $60K and BMWNA still refuses to CPO, allowing the values to drop like a proverbial rock.

They are sending a crystal clear message to the resale market about how they perceive their own reliability - specifically in electronic technology and SMG.

This thread frankly gives me serious pause. I'm on the fence about a 997S (used) or a new M3 and now I think I'm going to wait a year to see if the M3 is simply the next M5 (a disaster). I'm not talking about 0-60 or handling here. I'm talking about BMW making the same technology mistakes on the E92 M3 as the E60 M5. On the upside, at least they are not offering the SMG III for the 08 M3. What a disaster that would have been.

Either way - I'm not ordering ANY of this techno BS in my build. Have fun with your cars in the shop boys!
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      08-23-2007, 10:30 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by kishg View Post
60k after options? we'll see...
That isn't the point. The OP of the $70k mark was talking as if the base price, which would include the factory brakes, would be $70k. That is going to be proven most incorrect.
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      08-23-2007, 10:31 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mofomat View Post
The gear shifter, not the paddle.

Over time, the SMG drivelogic system learns your driving style, and therefore adapts how the gears are changed. This is more relevant to the automatic gear changes, something which I used for about ten minutes in three years of ownership. I never once recalibrated the SMG in my M3.

No. You're in neutral and that's it. The display has an 'N' there.

Imagine you are doing 50mph down the street in 4th gear, and you slip the SMG shift lever to the left i.e. into neutral. The car begins to coast, the display says 'N'. If you wait for about 20 seconds and let the car gradually slow down, lets say to about 15 mph, and then you move the shift lever to the right again to engage a gear, the SMG system will select the most appropriate gear for the road speed. In this case probably 2nd. Then as you move the shift lever to the right to engage a gear, the 'N' disappears and '2' appears.

So the system automatically does what you were asking could be done manually by flicking the paddles.

You cannot skip gears when changing down using the paddles or shift lever. It just runs though the gears in order, but very quickly, depending on how quick you initiate each shift. However, if you gradually approach a set of traffic lights for example, in fourth gear, and do not disengage the gear, the system will remain in fourth for a long time, and quite happily. But, imagine the lights change to green before you come to a complete stop, and you then press gas. If you haven't initiated a downshift to 3rd and then 2nd using either the left paddle or the shift lever yourself, the system will automatically select the most appropriate gear (2nd) immediately (and therefore skipping 3rd altogether), allowing you to accelerate away and not labour the engine.

It's all very easy and intuative in practice, and it certainly doesn't take away from the driving experience for me. It's just a different experience.
Thanks for the details. I am seriously considering going for this. Also, it might be a rather smooth transition having had played F1 on my PS3 for many hours.
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      08-23-2007, 10:37 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kishg View Post
decent = doesn't fade after a few laps at lime rock (not a heavy braking track).
It's not a track car.
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      08-23-2007, 10:41 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
That isn't the point. The OP of the $70k mark was talking as if the base price, which would include the factory brakes, would be $70k. That is going to be proven most incorrect.
The OP made no mention of 70k base as far as i can see (maybe i didnt re-read the entire thread in detail). I mentioned 70k. Note, I didnt say 70k base car, i said 70k car because that most likely what it will cost me with the options i'd want (i hope it's less but we'll see.. ) in any case, the point is pedantic, whether 60k or 70k, the stock brakes don't do justice to the car. Having to sink another 3k on stoptechs after buying an M3 doesn't make sense to me.

Of course for those that just buy an M3 to look cool in one won't need any better brakes than what BMW puts on.
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      08-23-2007, 10:43 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stahlgrau View Post
It's not a track car.
then lets not brag about it being tuned on the 'ring then..
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      08-23-2007, 10:46 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kishg View Post
then lets not brag about it being tuned on the 'ring then..
or compare it to the 997S in the brochure
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      08-23-2007, 11:51 PM   #77
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Correction

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddMcF2002 View Post
or compare it to the 997S in the brochure
It was only compared to the base 997 in the BMW materials and I am pretty sure that was not a brochures, but a sales guide for BMW sales folks. However, that being said the car will likely outperform the current 997S and already has with some particulars. A totally fair comparison IMO except the cost of the M3 will be way less.
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      08-24-2007, 06:17 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kishg View Post
The OP made no mention of 70k base as far as i can see (maybe i didnt re-read the entire thread in detail). I mentioned 70k. Note, I didnt say 70k base car, i said 70k car because that most likely what it will cost me with the options i'd want (i hope it's less but we'll see.. ) in any case, the point is pedantic, whether 60k or 70k, the stock brakes don't do justice to the car. Having to sink another 3k on stoptechs after buying an M3 doesn't make sense to me.

Of course for those that just buy an M3 to look cool in one won't need any better brakes than what BMW puts on.
Ugh, I just don't have the energy to correct this again.
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      08-24-2007, 09:28 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
Ugh, I just don't have the energy to correct this again.
Maybe I can help. The M3's single pot brakes are sick. They are the best designed, best looking and best performing brakes on the the planet. Don't you know the M3 is a BMW?...end of discussion.
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      08-24-2007, 09:34 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Maybe I can help. The M3's single pot brakes are sick. They are the best designed, best looking and best performing brakes on the the planet. Don't you know the M3 is a BMW?...end of discussion.
You're needling a lot lately, don't you? Kinda boring...

Best regards, south
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      08-24-2007, 09:37 AM   #81
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To bring this thread back around

I will probably get EDC but I am on the fence about Mdrive.

From what I have read the only thing I will lose is the ability to customize the M button.

Without Mdrive I will have to push all the buttons in the order I want to get the settings I want. Honestly, this will probably take only a few seconds once I become comfortable with the controls.

To be honest Mdrive to me will not be worth 6K or maybe even 3K if that ends up being the case.

Howver, I am not even sure that Mdrive is an option. I guess we will see...

Jason
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      08-24-2007, 09:47 AM   #82
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Honestly, how many hot shoes complaining about the brakes will (a) actually buy the car AND (b) take it on the track at 10/10s?

I don't know.

If I buy the car, I probably will not take it to 10/10s (of my own ability) on the track unlike with my E46 M3, because honestly I am not as comfortable as I used to be with the notion of wadding up a new car and (at best) being dropped from my insurance carrier. Good luck finding new coverage in that situation. If that makes me a poseur in the eyes of some hard core forum racers, then so be it.

I've taken my E46 M3 to 10/10s at Road America, a very high speed/hard braking track for multiple 20 minute sessions. Turn 5 in particular is tough on brakes because you are braking for a second gear turn at the bottom of a fairly steep hill, which is at the end of a long straight. Canada corner also can induce some pucker when braking. I experienced slight fade towards the end of each session. Not enough to spook me or even to make me back off. Certainly not enough to justify investing $5k in a big brake kit.

If the new M3 has similar braking performance, that is enough for a poseur like me.
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      08-24-2007, 09:47 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
To bring this thread back around

I will probably get EDC but I am on the fence about Mdrive.

From what I have read the only thing I will lose is the ability to customize the M button.
You will also lose out on a couple of extra settings which you can only choose if you have M drive.

Namely the 3rd and extra throttle setting (sport plus).

The ability to change the responsiveness of the steering (servotronic).
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      08-24-2007, 09:50 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
To bring this thread back around

I will probably get EDC but I am on the fence about Mdrive.

From what I have read the only thing I will lose is the ability to customize the M button.

Without Mdrive I will have to push all the buttons in the order I want to get the settings I want. Honestly, this will probably take only a few seconds once I become comfortable with the controls.

To be honest Mdrive to me will not be worth 6K or maybe even 3K if that ends up being the case.

Howver, I am not even sure that Mdrive is an option. I guess we will see...

Jason
You lose three settings without M-Drive:
-MDM mode
-third throttle mapping
-second sterring mode

It's not that expensive if you're ordering NAV anyway (~500€ in Germany)...

Best regards, south
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      08-24-2007, 10:02 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It was only compared to the base 997 in the BMW materials and I am pretty sure that was not a brochures, but a sales guide for BMW sales folks. However, that being said the car will likely outperform the current 997S and already has with some particulars. A totally fair comparison IMO except the cost of the M3 will be way less.
Out perform the 997S? In a strait line or on a track?
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      08-24-2007, 10:08 AM   #86
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there are some rumors floating around the the new M is faster around the ring than the 997S...I guess we will just have to wait and see...

Jason
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      08-24-2007, 10:26 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It was only compared to the base 997 in the BMW materials and I am pretty sure that was not a brochures, but a sales guide for BMW sales folks. However, that being said the car will likely outperform the current 997S and already has with some particulars. A totally fair comparison IMO except the cost of the M3 will be way less.
As you know, I am not happy with the direction the M division is heading. Sort of the beginning of the end for me starting with the e60. However, I do agree with you in part. IMO, The M3 will take the C2 on all but the twistiest courses. M3 should also be able stay close to C2S. IMO, the E92 4 litre is also a better powerplant than the C2S' 3.8 and not just because of the horsepower ratings. I would even take the M3's 4 litre powerplant over the GT3 and 997 turbo powerplants and that is saying something. There is a reason why BMW wins so many international engine awards (now one can argue how objective these awards are but it is BMW who is winning so who is whining, right)? I think M did a good job trying to keep the weight down, especially considering their intent was to build a great GT car sporting a racing motor. The CSL will be the car for the track. My frustratation stems from a history of no CSL offering in the states and the fact that BMW has this incredible motor that they dumb down with single pot brakes and electronic assist steering that numbs both feel and response. You can probably attest, M's of old had incredible steering response and feel. Steering seems to have worsened with each succeeding generation. Swamp, I know you have experience with the engineering aspect of mountain bikes. I race road bicycles on occasion. As you know, bike manufactures are experts at selling bikes with great frames that look like a great deal price wise but sneak in cheaper components, wheels or vice versa to more than make up the difference. This is my fear with the M3.
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      08-24-2007, 10:51 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
You're needling a lot lately, don't you? Kinda boring...

Best regards, south
Epacy and MI6 started hitting me with fan boy responses when I expressed what I thought were legitimate concerns about the M3. Got to the point where I thought I would have some fun and take them to task a bit. I agree with you in general. However, I find it ironic that you never call the fan boys out for "needling" or "fanboism" in fact you support their arguments. Epacy had it right when he said this is BMW site. I need to keep that in mind.
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