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      12-29-2012, 10:13 AM   #1
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M3 GTS Suspension

While doing my research on my next coilover setup I discovered this.

"KW equips BMW M3 GTS
BMW strengthens its M3 and broaden its portfolio with a BMW M3 GTS. The 450 horsepower strong BMW M3 GTS, made for the usage on the road and the race track, will be optimized for the usage on the race track regarding the drive system and suspension technology and will be produced individually only per orders. M-GmbH focused only on KW suspensions, that means, that all GTS-models will be delivered with a KW Clubsport suspension kit in series with separately adjustable compression and rebound damping."

http://www.kw-suspensions.eu/int/kw_history.php

After reading through many posts, I though Sachs was the supplier even though the GTS suspension is identical to the KW CS. Now I am a bit happier I ordered the KW CS kit.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=385970

Looks like RLDZHAO had it right back in 2010
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      12-29-2012, 03:47 PM   #2
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I have kw clubsport, albeit and another platform ( s/C Z4m) and they are phenomenal, they car performs on track sooooo well, the only issue i have is they are ROCK solid.... imo not very DDable..... they would drive you nuts.... again could be different on the m3s...... On the track or sprint circuits, warm sticky tyres, they are faultless, definitely one of my fave purchases, i really enjoyed bolting it all together as well, everything fit like oem parts, the quality is first rate, they do not make the slightest creak, which is nice!!!

when Bmw stick them on their GTS model that 100k plus over here in the UK..... you know its a solid setup!!!
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      12-30-2012, 02:25 AM   #3
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I believe the GTS has the KW Competition 2-way adjustable line.

http://www.m-world.us/products_kw_competition.html

.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      12-30-2012, 04:37 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggynuts01 View Post
Looks like RLDZHAO had it right back in 2010
Thanks for the recognition!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
I believe the GTS has the KW Competition 2-way adjustable line.

http://www.m-world.us/products_kw_competition.html

.
Same internals and technology, but different valving/set up based on BMW's specs. I believe that non-disclosure forbids KW from selling the exact same thing.
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      12-30-2012, 07:47 AM   #5
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So the point of this thread is...to confirm Richard's two year old thread?
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      12-31-2012, 02:33 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
Same internals and technology, but different valving/set up based on BMW's specs. I believe that non-disclosure forbids KW from selling the exact same thing.
But it is the Competition line in the GTS and not the Club Sport?

.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      12-31-2012, 04:08 AM   #7
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makes me lean a little more towards getting the clubsport over sleeve kit now...
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      12-31-2012, 01:45 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
But it is the Competition line in the GTS and not the Club Sport?

.
From the information I can gather from various sources, GTS has a mix of parts between Clubsport, Competition, and BMW's custom design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KEYON View Post
makes me lean a little more towards getting the clubsport over sleeve kit now...
If you want better performance, Clubsport hands down.
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      12-31-2012, 01:49 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
From the information I can gather from various sources, GTS has a mix of parts between Clubsport, Competition, and BMW's custom design.

Thanks Richard. What are your thoughts on the CS vs. the Competition. Is it more than twice the performance difference given the price difference? Obviously, it'll depend on the level of the driver in order to tell the difference, but where you ever able to drive on a CS car vs. your Competition equiped car?

.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      12-31-2012, 05:35 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEYON View Post
makes me lean a little more towards getting the clubsport over sleeve kit now...
IMO...sleeve overs are a waste unless you must keep EDC. Even then you don't need height adjustability to balance the car. If you have lightened the car significantly...why would you want to keep using the OE shocks?

Go full coilovers or go home!
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      01-01-2013, 05:37 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Thanks Richard. What are your thoughts on the CS vs. the Competition. Is it more than twice the performance difference given the price difference? Obviously, it'll depend on the level of the driver in order to tell the difference, but where you ever able to drive on a CS car vs. your Competition equiped car?

.
KW Clubsport is a trackable street suspension, and KW Competition is a streetable track & race suspension.

Typically, for my customers who use the car daily and goes to the track a handful of times a year, I would recommend KW Clubsport. It offers improved performance vs. stock, a very decent ride, and design features that can handle the elements from daily driving such as snow and salt.

For example, the Clubsport camber plate has a rubber boot to keep the main bearing clean, lubricated and protected from salt and debris. The front adjustable spring perches are made using steel sandwiched in between self-lubricating composites which eliminates corrosion and prevents the spring perches from seizing onto the front strut.

KW Competition, on the other hand, is designed with performance and precision first and foremost. All the rubber bushings and mounts found on the Clubsport are replaced with race quality metal bearings. Springs and valving are substantially uprated based on your driving style and tire use. The camber plate is beefed up to handle increased loads from racing conditions.

Also available now (just released) is an inverted front strut, increasing the strength and rigidity of the damper by distributing the bending load onto the entire shock body while reducing frictional loads during cornering.

I've driven many of my customers' and students' M3s with Clubsport on the race track, and compared to KW Competition, the difference is substantial, especially for more experienced drivers using sticky tires. If you are ever in the area, shoot me a PM
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      01-01-2013, 08:09 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
KW Clubsport is a trackable street suspension, and KW Competition is a streetable track & race suspension.
Richard, do you have any track time data points on the Clubsport similar to what you shared on the Competition? (http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536863)

If the Competition netted you 2.8 seconds, the Clubsport 1/2 that? Or are we talking marginal lap time difference between the two?
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      01-01-2013, 11:40 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
KW Clubsport is a trackable street suspension, and KW Competition is a streetable track & race suspension.

Typically, for my customers who use the car daily and goes to the track a handful of times a year, I would recommend KW Clubsport. It offers improved performance vs. stock, a very decent ride, and design features that can handle the elements from daily driving such as snow and salt.

For example, the Clubsport camber plate has a rubber boot to keep the main bearing clean, lubricated and protected from salt and debris. The front adjustable spring perches are made using steel sandwiched in between self-lubricating composites which eliminates corrosion and prevents the spring perches from seizing onto the front strut.

KW Competition, on the other hand, is designed with performance and precision first and foremost. All the rubber bushings and mounts found on the Clubsport are replaced with race quality metal bearings. Springs and valving are substantially uprated based on your driving style and tire use. The camber plate is beefed up to handle increased loads from racing conditions.

Also available now (just released) is an inverted front strut, increasing the strength and rigidity of the damper by distributing the bending load onto the entire shock body while reducing frictional loads during cornering.

I've driven many of my customers' and students' M3s with Clubsport on the race track, and compared to KW Competition, the difference is substantial, especially for more experienced drivers using sticky tires. If you are ever in the area, shoot me a PM
Thanks for the detailed response. I always appreciate your input since you have hands on experience. What line is the new inverted strut in? CS or Competition or is it a new line?

.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      01-01-2013, 11:45 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
IMO...sleeve overs are a waste unless you must keep EDC. Even then you don't need height adjustability to balance the car. If you have lightened the car significantly...why would you want to keep using the OE shocks?

Go full coilovers or go home!
James, being quite the bully again I see!

Just kidding!

I also considered sleeve-overs, but decided they are not worth it just to be able to corner balance. Hope 2013 brings you lots of track time and happiness!
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      01-01-2013, 10:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ortho281 View Post
James, being quite the bully again I see!

Just kidding!

I also considered sleeve-overs, but decided they are not worth it just to be able to corner balance. Hope 2013 brings you lots of track time and happiness!
Lol...yeah, don't see why you need to corner balance a stock car. See you at Driver's Edge. You should have did an event when I told you to!

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      01-01-2013, 10:39 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Lol...yeah, don't see why you need to corner balance a stock car. See you at Driver's Edge. You should have did an event when I told you to!

Yeah, you are right! Now I'm missing out on COTA. Maybe I can still get on with BMWCCA in June. I'm also signed up for MSR Cresson in Feb. Have fun at COTA and see you at MSRH.
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      01-02-2013, 02:24 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Richard, do you have any track time data points on the Clubsport similar to what you shared on the Competition? (http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536863)

If the Competition netted you 2.8 seconds, the Clubsport 1/2 that? Or are we talking marginal lap time difference between the two?
Two data points I have are from two M Club members orion565 and tinpot, whose cars I worked extensively on. Both cars had DCT, KW Clubsport, AD08 or similar tires, Akrapovic Evo, and StopTech brakes. Basically the same as my car except for suspension, GT4 aero, and weight loss. Their cars did 1:48 at the same track.

Here's the Houston M Club lap time database FYI. My best time on it was with Continental scrubs or Hoosier R6, KW Competition, StopTech BBK, at about 3,450 lbs w/o driver.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=605530

Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Thanks for the detailed response. I always appreciate your input since you have hands on experience. What line is the new inverted strut in? CS or Competition or is it a new line?

.
It will be an option for for Competition 2-way. It is already the standard for Competition 3-way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ortho281 View Post
James, being quite the bully again I see!

Just kidding!

I also considered sleeve-overs, but decided they are not worth it just to be able to corner balance. Hope 2013 brings you lots of track time and happiness!
Look forward to seeing you at our February event!
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      01-02-2013, 09:11 AM   #18
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[quote=Richard@M-World]
Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Thanks Richard. What are your thoughts on the CS vs. the Competition. Is it more than twice the performance difference given the price difference? Obviously, it'll depend on the level of the driver in order to tell the difference, but where you ever able to drive on a CS car vs. your Competition equiped car?

.

Very nice compare also helpful. I heard people saying that JRZ RS1 damper and ohlins R&T damper is better than KW CS. Is that true?
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      01-02-2013, 02:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhouzitao View Post
Very nice compare also helpful. I heard people saying that JRZ RS1 damper and ohlins R&T damper is better than KW CS. Is that true?
I will be straight and honest. I do not have much experience with JRZ or Ohlins, so I will not comment on whether they are "better" or not.

I do want to comment a little bit on KW and specifically their Clubsport and Competition lines.

As many of you know, on the E9X platform I have hands on experience with H&R coil over, H&R springs, Eibach springs, Dinan stage 1, Moton Street Sport, Moton Clubsport, KW Sleeve Over kit, KW V3, KW Clubsport, and KW Competition.

I only recommend what actually works to my customers, and I sell KW because they truly put in a thorough engineering effort (design, analysis, simulation, track testing, etc) on their kits for the M3.

When you receive a KW kit, it comes as an engineered, plug and play package. The springs are of the correct lengths and rates, the camber plates will actually fit (and not break) on your car, and the dampers are actually valved specifically for your car/set up.

Having a plug and play package means a lot to me and my customers because we want to spend time driving on the race track, and not fiddling with the suspension in the garage.

Unfortunately, in the past couple years, partly due to its popularity, there were way too many dealers (authorized and unauthorized) on the market. And many dealers, desperate for business, started heavily discounting KW products. Many sold KW at cost just to move units. And this has led to the perception that KW is somehow a discount product with inferior quality and performance to the other brands.

I think KW has been actively trying to address this problem, but it will take a long time to rebuild its brand.
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      01-02-2013, 03:33 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
I will be straight and honest. I do not have much experience with JRZ or Ohlins, so I will not comment on whether they are "better" or not.

I do want to comment a little bit on KW and specifically their Clubsport and Competition lines.

As many of you know, on the E9X platform I have hands on experience with H&R coil over, H&R springs, Eibach springs, Dinan stage 1, Moton Street Sport, Moton Clubsport, KW Sleeve Over kit, KW V3, KW Clubsport, and KW Competition.

I only recommend what actually works to my customers, and I sell KW because they truly put in a thorough engineering effort (design, analysis, simulation, track testing, etc) on their kits for the M3.

When you receive a KW kit, it comes as an engineered, plug and play package. The springs are of the correct lengths and rates, the camber plates will actually fit (and not break) on your car, and the dampers are actually valved specifically for your car/set up.

Having a plug and play package means a lot to me and my customers because we want to spend time driving on the race track, and not fiddling with the suspension in the garage.

Unfortunately, in the past couple years, partly due to its popularity, there were way too many dealers (authorized and unauthorized) on the market. And many dealers, desperate for business, started heavily discounting KW products. Many sold KW at cost just to move units. And this has led to the perception that KW is somehow a discount product with inferior quality and performance to the other brands.

I think KW has been actively trying to address this problem, but it will take a long time to rebuild its brand.
To add to your comment above.

I was previously a Pcar guy. I had a Cayman S. Just a few years back, on Planet-9 forum, KW coilovers were the best you can get and were pretty expensive. If you wanted track handling you get the V3s or CS, if you wanted just a drop you get the PSS9s.

Now, coming to the ///M forums, it looks like JRZ/Moton/Ohlins are for superior handling, while KW is just for lowering. Its good to hear that you think highly of KW.. Especially since I just ordered the KW CS

Its does seem like a lot of marketing and brand fads that are swaying decisions rather than real performance gains.
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      01-02-2013, 05:57 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post

Unfortunately, in the past couple years, partly due to its popularity, there were way too many dealers (authorized and unauthorized) on the market. And many dealers, desperate for business, started heavily discounting KW products. Many sold KW at cost just to move units. And this has led to the perception that KW is somehow a discount product with inferior quality and performance to the other brands.

I think KW has been actively trying to address this problem, but it will take a long time to rebuild its brand.
Richard,

You are absolulely right, and it is of pure consequence to consumers now due to certain retailers undermining KW products by selling them at cost or below cost just to move their own inventory.

KW Suspension is top shelf grade, especially the Clubsport and Competition line.

Having experience with Ohlins (we are their dealer) and JRZ as well, the competition and clubsport KW lines are awesome in comparison and cost less.

The best part about buying KW suspension is that not much "user R&D" needs to be done any longer, KW did pretty much all of it. Its mainly up to us car builders to set them up ideally for the driver and car.

Malek
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      01-02-2013, 07:19 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
Two data points I have are from two M Club members orion565 and tinpot, whose cars I worked extensively on. Both cars had DCT, KW Clubsport, AD08 or similar tires, Akrapovic Evo, and StopTech brakes. Basically the same as my car except for suspension, GT4 aero, and weight loss. Their cars did 1:48 at the same track.

Here's the Houston M Club lap time database FYI. My best time on it was with Continental scrubs or Hoosier R6, KW Competition, StopTech BBK, at about 3,450 lbs w/o driver.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=605530
So basically they matched your stock time? Believe that you might be pretty quick.. Can't imagine the clubsports count for nothing over stock. Wonder what their times were pre-clubsport.
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