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      08-12-2013, 03:16 PM   #1
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M vs. GT3, R8 & GTR

I’m really interested in seeing how the 2015 M4 with twin turbo’s is going to stack up to the Porsche, when you look at the numbers the Porsche which cost $40,000 to $60,000 more than the dated e9x platform M3 isn’t beating the M3 by much! So to all who are jumping ship & going over to Porsche aren’t you’ll just a little curious that you might be jumping ship a little too soon? From what I understand the new M4 is going to be lighter & have a lot more torque as well as hp compared to our e9x M3, not to mention the fact of the ease of tuning the new M4 (being turbo & all)

I was reading an article about the new M5 (with the V8 twin turbo setup) in the May issue of European Car which came from the factory with 560hp with a tune it was putting out 646hp & 570 lb-ft…..just sayin! I’m not all that thrilled about the M3 being called the M4 or the fact that we’re losing our NA V8 but a twin turbo 6 M changes the game.

When you look at the New Porsche GT3 (arguably the best Porsche in production) curb weight 3,153 475 hp 325 lb-ft msrp $130,400. Then we have the Audi R8 in full trim curb weight 3,605 5.2 liter FSIŽ V10 550 hp 398 lb-ft. msrp $170,000. And the Nissan GTR curb weight 3,829 545hp 463lb-ft. msrp $99,590

In pure speculation let’s just throw out some numbers, let say the new M4 comes in at a curb weight of 3,400 460hp 375lb-ft msrp $75,000 (those number are very realistic) with a $1500 tune it would kick ass (if you assume the tune would be good for about 100hp increase & a gain of 75 to 100 lb-ft) The GT3, GTR & the R8 which would be almost double the price (except for the GTR which comes in at $25,000 more) would be in the cross hairs of the M4!

I guess what I’m saying is before I can jump ship I have to at least see the numbers on the M4! I love my M3….. is it the fastest? No! However, imho it’s the most well rounded sports car you can buy, the question at hand is will the new M4 make up for it not being the fastest?
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      08-12-2013, 03:27 PM   #2
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I believe BMW is going straight 6, not V6.

Think tuned 335 motor in an M body.
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      08-12-2013, 03:31 PM   #3
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I too, am sad to see the NA V8 is gone and the name will be changed to M4.

As for your speculations, they seem very realistic
Knowing BMW M Division, they will probably tune the M4 to near 50/50 weight distribution, have one of the best suspensions setup and steering feedback. Performance wise, I would say the M4 may not be in the same league as GT3 & GT-R, yet. But who knows what tricks the boys in Munich have in their bags.

In addition, BMW would like the M4 to be more attainable by enthusiasts thus keeping the price at or below $80k. Can they tune the car to 550+ hp, 500+ torque as a "Stock" M4? Absolutely, but that will raise the cost tremendously.
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      08-12-2013, 03:32 PM   #4
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I believe BMW is going straight 6, not V6.

Think tuned 335 motor in an M body.
You are correct, actually that's what I meant....nothing a quick edit can't fix
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      08-12-2013, 03:33 PM   #5
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Think those 3 would be faster around the track than M4 but since majority of time is spent on the roads the M is hard to beat for an all-around ride. Especially for the money.
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      08-12-2013, 03:36 PM   #6
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The M3/4 will not be in the same performance class or price range as the other cars you mentioned.

The M3 has always been an in-between car offering good performance while maintaining every day drivability. It's never been about all out performance.
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      08-12-2013, 03:39 PM   #7
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Are you buying a car for tuneability? Or for power/price value?

It sounds like that's all you care about. If so, yea man. Get the M4. Unless you can stretch and get a GT-R or something that's fast enough to satisfy you.

The M4 will probably come in around 3500 lbs or so....maybe a bit over 3400 dry weight. I'd be super pleased if it was lighter. We already know it sounds weaker than the S65 and there's absolutely nothing that can fix that.

It will be faster in probably every measurable way and way more driveable with that tq down low. It won't be high revving if high revving means at least hitting 8k.

With $1500 to tune it, you will likely be able to take it from 430-450 stock to perhaps 520 hp. Probably get it fast enough to walk away from a stock M5/6 in straight line while also taking it down by a larger margin on a road course.

The motor is not interesting to me, however the aluminum bodywork and other weight saving tech + the improved M chassis will be nice.

If it were me I'd be perfectly happy with them slapping the S65 exactly as it is into the M4, while simply working on weight savings. M needs to go on a serious diet.
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      08-12-2013, 03:43 PM   #8
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Im not jumping ship, Im just waiting till I see a good Blower setup go on sale I plan on keeping my M3 for the long run. Its a 09 with only 20k on the clock now.
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      08-12-2013, 03:45 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
The M3/4 will not be in the same performance class or price range as the other cars you mentioned.

The M3 has always been an in-between car offering good performance while maintaining every day drivability. It's never been about all out performance.
I agree the M3 has never been all out performance, however it's never had twin turbo's either!
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      08-12-2013, 03:47 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by M3/4 life View Post
I agree, however it's never had twin turbo's either!
Yes, but that won't help other than straight line power. A GTR, GT3 etc, have a lot more going for them than just power. They are finely tuned driving machines offering good driving feel and awesome performance. The current M3 is a primitive beast compared to those and I don't think it will get better in the next generation. BMW is not out to compete with those cars because doing so will sacrifice the balance that the M3 offers.
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      08-12-2013, 03:53 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Are you buying a car for tuneability? Or for power/price value?

It sounds like that's all you care about. If so, yea man. Get the M4. Unless you can stretch and get a GT-R or something that's fast enough to satisfy you.

The M4 will probably come in around 3500 lbs or so....maybe a bit over 3400 dry weight. I'd be super pleased if it was lighter. We already know it sounds weaker than the S65 and there's absolutely nothing that can fix that.

It will be faster in probably every measurable way and way more driveable with that tq down low. It won't be high revving if high revving means at least hitting 8k.

With $1500 to tune it, you will likely be able to take it from 430-450 stock to perhaps 520 hp. Probably get it fast enough to walk away from a stock M5/6 in straight line while also taking it down by a larger margin on a road course.

The motor is not interesting to me, however the aluminum bodywork and other weight saving tech + the improved M chassis will be nice.

If it were me I'd be perfectly happy with them slapping the S65 exactly as it is into the M4, while simply working on weight savings. M needs to go on a serious diet.
For me it’s not about the ability to tune, however by judging on the number of supercharged M3 on the forum it just might be about the ability to tune for many! For me it’s about getting the best looking bang for the buck, so if I can get an M4 for $75,000 & spend $1,500 on a tune and match the performance or maybe even out perform a car costing upwards of $130,000 than that’s a smart investment. Plus I love BMW, so I guess I’m rooting for the M to make a come back!

However, I do agree on the M going on a serious diet!
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      08-12-2013, 03:55 PM   #12
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let say the new M4 comes in at a curb weight of 3,400 460hp 375lb-ft msrp $75,000 (those number are very realistic) with a $1500 tune it would kick ass (if you assume the tune would be good for about 100hp increase & a gain of 75 to 100 lb-ft)
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With $1500 to tune it, you will likely be able to take it from 430-450 stock to perhaps 520 hp. Probably get it fast enough to walk away from a stock M5/6 in straight line while also taking it down by a larger margin on a road course.
There will be no $1,500 tune to add 100HP...at least not for a looong time. Initially think $5-7K for maybe 30-40 HP. As time goes one, the cost will decrease and HP will increase. Just look at the progression of the M5/6 tunes. And do you think BMW is going to make the new M3/4 ECU easier to crack?
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      08-12-2013, 04:27 PM   #13
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Yes, but that won't help other than straight line power. A GTR, GT3 etc, have a lot more going for them than just power. They are finely tuned driving machines offering good driving feel and awesome performance. The current M3 is a primitive beast compared to those and I don't think it will get better in the next generation. BMW is not out to compete with those cars because doing so will sacrifice the balance that the M3 offers.
What's making the M3 so primitive is the weight & lack of torque! If BMW would simply put the M on a diet I have doubt the M would be better able to compete and yet still be balanced! IMHO anyways.........
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      08-12-2013, 04:33 PM   #14
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There will be no $1,500 tune to add 100HP...at least not for a looong time. Initially think $5-7K for maybe 30-40 HP. As time goes one, the cost will decrease and HP will increase. Just look at the progression of the M5/6 tunes. And do you think BMW is going to make the new M3/4 ECU easier to crack?
The new M5 hasn't been out very long and with Manhart Racing ECU software & a GruppeM carbon fiber intake system it gained 16% over stock taking it from 560hp to 646hp! As popular as the M3 is I doubt it will be long before Mike over at BPM will have a tune ready for the M4!
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      08-12-2013, 04:34 PM   #15
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The new M5 hasn't been out very long and with Manhart Racing ECU software & a GruppeM carbon fiber intake system it gained 16% over stock taking it from 560hp to 646hp! As popular as the M3 is I doubt it will be long before Mike over at BPM will have a tune ready for the M4!
And how much do those mods cost? And what is the size/displacement of the M3/4 motor vs M5/6 motor (baseline for analyzing expected gains)? And do you think BMW is going to make it easier of harder to tune the M3/4 comparatively? And you think some forum tuner is going to be the one to figure this all out? lol
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      08-12-2013, 04:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by SilentAttack View Post
Im not jumping ship, Im just waiting till I see a good Blower setup go on sale I plan on keeping my M3 for the long run. Its a 09 with only 20k on the clock now.
I'm with you, I plan on keeping my M3 for the long run as well! My 09 has 21,800 on the clock.....however I'm very curious as to what the M4's capabilties might be, as well as the fact that I'm tired of hearing about Porsche & Audi & GT-R (don't get me wrong there awesome machines) I'm just rooting for the underdog I guess
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      08-12-2013, 04:43 PM   #17
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And how much do those mods cost? And what is the size/displacement of the M3/4 motor vs M5/6 motor (baseline for analyzing expected gains)? And do you think BMW is going to make it easier of harder to tune the M3/4 comparatively? And you think some forum tuner is going to be the one to figure this all out? lol
Ummmm........I don't know, however I do have the winning lotto numbers for Saturday nights drawing
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      08-12-2013, 04:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
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What's making the M3 so primitive is the weight & lack of torque! If BMW would simply put the M on a diet I have doubt the M would be better able to compete and yet still be balanced! IMHO anyways.........
It isn't that. Go drive an 911 GT3 and drive an M3. The GT3 just feels so much more in tune. It feels like an extension of your arms and legs. A M3 is numb compared to that. The steering is distant - not as precise, the feeling of the road is muted to make it more comfortable and the handling is just not as good. Even a big pig of a car like the GT-R feels much more connected and sporty compared to the M3. Weight and power are just numbers, they do not convey what a car feels like to drive.

The M3 is just not made for that kind of purpose, because of the balance it needs to achieve, it is a compromised car. To make it more like the other cars you mentioned, it'd need to have some major changes - stiffer, less comfortable, lighter, smaller, quicker steering, uncomfortable seats, more road noise etc. That won't sit well with the majority of M3 buyers.
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      08-12-2013, 04:56 PM   #19
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It isn't that. Go drive an 911 GT3 and drive an M3. The GT3 just feels so much more in tune. It feels like an extension of your arms and legs. A M3 is numb compared to that. The steering is distant - not as precise, the feeling of the road is muted to make it more comfortable and the handling is just not as good. Even a big pig of a car like the GT-R feels much more connected and sporty compared to the M3. Weight and power are just numbers, they do not convey what a car feels like to drive.

The M3 is just not made for that kind of purpose, because of the balance it needs to achieve, it is a compromised car. To make it more like the other cars you mentioned, it'd need to have some major changes - stiffer, less comfortable, lighter, smaller, quicker steering, uncomfortable seats, more road noise etc. That won't sit well with the majority of M3 buyers.
Yeah, I suppose you have a point.....however the GT3 is 500 lbs. lighter than the M3 that makes a huge difference when you're talking about feeling connected & steering feel. The GT-R makes up for it's mass with four wheel drive & power/torque. The M3 is heavy with no torque......
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      08-12-2013, 05:02 PM   #20
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Yeah, I suppose you have a point.....however the GT3 is 500 lbs. lighter than the M3 that makes a huge difference when you're talking about feeling connected & steering feel. The GT-R makes up for it's mass with four wheel drive & power/torque. The M3 is heavy with no torque......
You are comparing different types of cars. I'd say a GT-R, GT3, R8 etc are "sports cars". The M3 is more of a "sporty GT" car. Something you can drive every day but not as hardcore as a sports car.

Look no further than the car's origins. The M3 starts off as a 3 series that is modified for more performance. All the other cars starts off as-is - purpose built cars to go fast in.
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      08-12-2013, 05:14 PM   #21
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Quote:
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You are comparing different types of cars. I'd say a GT-R, GT3, R8 etc are "sports cars". The M3 is more of a "sporty GT" car. Something you can drive every day but not as hardcore as a sports car.

Look no further than the car's origins. The M3 starts off as a 3 series that is modified for more performance. All the other cars starts off as-is - purpose built cars to go fast in.
I think for the most part ya'll are both saying the same thing but just in different ways......as I tend to agree with both of you
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      08-12-2013, 05:23 PM   #22
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You are comparing different types of cars. I'd say a GT-R, GT3, R8 etc are "sports cars". The M3 is more of a "sporty GT" car. Something you can drive every day but not as hardcore as a sports car.

Look no further than the car's origins. The M3 starts off as a 3 series that is modified for more performance. All the other cars starts off as-is - purpose built cars to go fast in.
Yeah, and I understand that the GT-R, GT3 & R8 are indeed supercars with super price tags whereas the M3 was built with a totally different protocol in mind. I guess my point is or maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part is that to be as practical a dd as the M3 is; it's not that far behind these supercars. And if BMW wanted to push the envelope with the next generation M I think it would be very intriguing to say the least as to what they could create. I mean if Toyota can build a supercar in the LFA surely BMW can make the M compete with Porsche with a tweak here & there. But like I said maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part........
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