Why we all will miss "high-revving" engine

Munit · 01-03-2013, 03:47 PM

So I am the first to say I am and was extremely disapointed when bmw took the turbo route to all M cars and no longer will be the days of RPMS soaring to 8400 or higher. I just don't get how porsche can get 450hp out of a NA flat 6 with less displacement. But that is not the point.

Although there are several things I objectively like about high-revving engines, when I think about it, it actually isn't so clear as to "why" we like it.

Naturally I am not referring to throttle response as that is more of a NA thing and not a high revving thing. Aside from that. Many even say they would have been ok with a turbo v8 revving to 8k but again why?

For me the reasons were straight forward.
1. Probably the most important to me is the sound of the engine and car that you cannot get in any other setup. I really enjoy sound every single drive in this car.
2.the "special" feeling of being somewhat "near" race-car like feel. Nascar actually does not rev much higher than ours. Obviously F1 does but nonetheless it gives you a bit of that "race-car" like feel which makes it feel special each time you drive, atleast for me.

But in the end, while I will miss it, I guess I can't say the important things besides throttle response which seems to be getting better with each engine, will really be negatively effected. Curious other poeples reasons for liking the high-revving nature?

mhabs · 01-03-2013, 05:29 PM

For me it's always been 1) throttle response, 2) high revs. From how the cars feel to me, all the BMW turbo engines still exhibit turbo-lag, despite everyone saying they don't. It's pretty noticeable, at least to me

JJunkins · 01-03-2013, 06:08 PM

So why not just keep a few spare S65 M3's for fun? No one says ya gotta move into a turbo.

Mr. ///M3 RD · 01-03-2013, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJunkins

So why not just keep a few spare S65 M3's for fun? No one says ya gotta move into a turbo.

This ^^^ 100% why not keep it or trade up to the latest e9X M3 then do keep it they are build to last a long ... long time!

///M Power-Belgium · 01-03-2013, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhabs

For me it's always been 1) throttle response, 2) high revs. From how the cars feel to me, all the BMW turbo engines still exhibit turbo-lag, despite everyone saying they don't. It's pretty noticeable, at least to me

But almost everyone loves the Nissan GT-R ..... !
And yes...with two turbo's.....?!?!
I just don't get it ....???

PrimoM3 · 01-03-2013, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

But almost everyone loves the Nissan GT-R ..... !
And yes...with two turbo's.....?!?!
I just don't get it ....???

Not me. Super artificial feeling. Fast as balls tho.

Vic311 · 01-03-2013, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munit

So I am the first to say I am and was extremely disapointed when bmw took the turbo route to all M cars and no longer will be the days of RPMS soaring to 8400 or higher

You must know something the rest of us don't

1) How do you know the new M wont have an equally high redline?
2) How do you know the new M will have the same turbo set up as seen in other BMW platforms?

Its all speculation until the platform is officially released and what does it matter for us anyways, we have the high rev, N/A car

VCMpower · 01-03-2013, 07:02 PM

GTR is fast but feels like a Xbox CPU. Not connected enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

But almost everyone loves the Nissan GT-R ..... !
And yes...with two turbo's.....?!?!
I just don't get it ....???

MKE_M3 · 01-03-2013, 07:07 PM

There are engineering advantages (and some disadvantages, of course) to generating horse power at high RPMs, vs. low RPMs.

Consider two engines, both putting out 414HP, one puts it out at 8000RPM, the other at 4000RPM (think big turbo diesel). The first only makes around 250 lb-ft of torque, while the second makes around 546 lb-ft of torque. The drive train strength for the car making 250 ft-lbs is much lower than the needs of the engine producing 546 ft-lbs. This means that the high revving engine can be partnered with a lighter drive train. Additionally, less torque requires(generally) less displacement (or lack of hardware like super/turbo charger), which also saves weight.

Lighter is better for sports cars.

Additionally, there are gearing advantages to high revving engines, the car revving to 8000 RPM can get twice the mechanical advantage (half as tall of gears) as the low revving engine while covering the same speed in each gear.

Lower gearing is better for sports cars.

So if you like light cars that are aided by mechanical advantage, then high revving is for you

The main downside is obviously driveability, which is not a high priority for sports cars.

To determine what is more important to you, consider this.... would you rather drive an NSX to the local grocery store, or a turbo diesel truck cross country?

///M Power-Belgium · 01-03-2013, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrimoM3

Not me. Super artificial feeling. Fast as balls tho.

A month ago i came back from work (pm-shift)
I stopped at the traffic light....and yes a GTR stopped alongside of me.
After two second's my MDM was already pressed !and i have DCT....and
gave full trottle...i assure you..the GTR flew away ( and yes i can drive my ///M.Got the impression that i was moving in almost slow motion !
It was a big disappointment for me...believe me !
But still ...i love my ///M3

Mike Benvo · 01-03-2013, 07:12 PM

I will never, ever, ever sell this M3. I might get the new one when it comes out (just because I like to have every new BMW!), but this M3 and my 7 series will never leave my fleet.

Something about a tightly knit small block V8 at 8,700 RPM really makes me smile.

VCMpower · 01-03-2013, 07:17 PM

8700 RPM! Mmmmmmmm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I will never, ever, ever sell this M3. I might get the new one when it comes out (just because I like to have every new BMW!), but this M3 and my 7 series will never leave my fleet.

Something about a tightly knit small block V8 at 8,700 RPM really makes me smile.

spotshooter · 01-03-2013, 07:42 PM

I pulled the trigger on a 2013 for this very reason. The last NA //M motor from BMW. Coming from a turbo N55 engine, nothing compares to the sound and the instant power at hand. The M3 never ceases to impress.

phrozen06 · 01-03-2013, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I will never, ever, ever sell this M3. I might get the new one when it comes out (just because I like to have every new BMW!), but this M3 and my 7 series will never leave my fleet.

Something about a tightly knit small block V8 at 8,700 RPM really makes me smile.

agreed. My ///M is a keeper.

LarThaL · 01-03-2013, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

A month ago i came back from work (pm-shift)
I stopped at the traffic light....and yes a GTR stopped alongside of me.
After two second's my MDM was already pressed !and i have DCT....and
gave full trottle...i assure you..the GTR flew away ( and yes i can drive my ///M.Got the impression that i was moving in almost slowe motion !
It was a big disappointment for me...believe me !
But still ...i love my ///M3

And this surprises you? The GTR is a maniacal speed machine, but as others have pointed out, leaves a very sterile driving experience, especially on the street. I test drove a GTR three times, once for over 2 hours, when I was car shopping in 2011. Still chose the M3. However, if my goal was simply to have the fastest and baddest beast around, the GTR is it, hands down.

mhabs · 01-03-2013, 07:51 PM

Totally... if the engine fails eventually, would buy a new engine in a heartbeat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I will never, ever, ever sell this M3. I might get the new one when it comes out (just because I like to have every new BMW!), but this M3 and my 7 series will never leave my fleet.

Something about a tightly knit small block V8 at 8,700 RPM really makes me smile.

Mike Benvo · 01-03-2013, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCMpower

8700 RPM! Mmmmmmmm

I have my redline set at 8,800 even though I only really go to 8,600 before the shift. The car has seen this RPM a handful of times. Runs stronger than ever

A car I tuned that came to me a few weeks ago (which had stock software w/8,400 limit +/- 100) recorded the highest REV I've EVER seen in an M3, 9,114 RPM! I've read the freezeframe data from hundreds of M3's, and never saw anything like that. This is a testament to how well built these motors are considering it's still running fine 20000 miles later.

///M Power-Belgium · 01-03-2013, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarThaL

And this surprises you? The GTR is a maniacal speed machine, but as others have pointed out, leaves a very sterile driving experience, especially on the street. I test drove a GTR three times, once for over 2 hours, when I was car shopping in 2011. Still chose the M3. However, if my goal was simply to have the fastest and baddest beast around, the GTR is it, hands down.

Surprise...not realy,i wanted the experience in person..(the difference)
and yes... it was a lot...and to much for me at that moment !

VCMpower · 01-03-2013, 08:09 PM

I would like to see what the S65 could bench RPM at. I have all the confidence it could go over 10K. I know the DCT could not handle that RPM but these motors are just amazing!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I have my redline set at 8,800 even though I only really go to 8,600 before the shift. The car has seen this RPM a handful of times. Runs stronger than ever

A car I tuned that came to me a few weeks ago (which had stock software w/8,400 limit +/- 100) recorded the highest REV I've EVER seen in an M3, 9,114 RPM! I've read the freezeframe data from hundreds of M3's, and never saw anything like that. This is a testament to how well built these motors are considering it's still running fine 20000 miles later.

Mike Benvo · 01-03-2013, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCMpower

I would like to see what the S65 could bench RPM at. I have all the confidence it could go over 10K. I know the DCT could not handle that RPM but these motors are just amazing!

I'm not brave enough to try it, but if anyone is I will raise your redline for free!

VCMpower · 01-03-2013, 08:30 PM

Calling all NA guys!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I'm not brave enough to try it, but if anyone is I will raise your redline for free!

kwike92 · 01-03-2013, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJunkins

So why not just keep a few spare S65 M3's for fun? No one says ya gotta move into a turbo.

+1

01-03-2013, 03:47 PM	#1
Munit Banned Drives: m3 Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: CA Posts: 220 iTrader: (0)	Why we all will miss "high-revving" engine So I am the first to say I am and was extremely disapointed when bmw took the turbo route to all M cars and no longer will be the days of RPMS soaring to 8400 or higher. I just don't get how porsche can get 450hp out of a NA flat 6 with less displacement. But that is not the point. Although there are several things I objectively like about high-revving engines, when I think about it, it actually isn't so clear as to "why" we like it. Naturally I am not referring to throttle response as that is more of a NA thing and not a high revving thing. Aside from that. Many even say they would have been ok with a turbo v8 revving to 8k but again why? For me the reasons were straight forward. 1. Probably the most important to me is the sound of the engine and car that you cannot get in any other setup. I really enjoy sound every single drive in this car. 2.the "special" feeling of being somewhat "near" race-car like feel. Nascar actually does not rev much higher than ours. Obviously F1 does but nonetheless it gives you a bit of that "race-car" like feel which makes it feel special each time you drive, atleast for me. But in the end, while I will miss it, I guess I can't say the important things besides throttle response which seems to be getting better with each engine, will really be negatively effected. Curious other poeples reasons for liking the high-revving nature?
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01-03-2013, 07:07 PM	#9
MKE_M3 Lieutenant Colonel Drives: 2011 e90 M3 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,502 iTrader: (0)	There are engineering advantages (and some disadvantages, of course) to generating horse power at high RPMs, vs. low RPMs. Consider two engines, both putting out 414HP, one puts it out at 8000RPM, the other at 4000RPM (think big turbo diesel). The first only makes around 250 lb-ft of torque, while the second makes around 546 lb-ft of torque. The drive train strength for the car making 250 ft-lbs is much lower than the needs of the engine producing 546 ft-lbs. This means that the high revving engine can be partnered with a lighter drive train. Additionally, less torque requires(generally) less displacement (or lack of hardware like super/turbo charger), which also saves weight. Lighter is better for sports cars. Additionally, there are gearing advantages to high revving engines, the car revving to 8000 RPM can get twice the mechanical advantage (half as tall of gears) as the low revving engine while covering the same speed in each gear. Lower gearing is better for sports cars. So if you like light cars that are aided by mechanical advantage, then high revving is for you The main downside is obviously driveability, which is not a high priority for sports cars. To determine what is more important to you, consider this.... would you rather drive an NSX to the local grocery store, or a turbo diesel truck cross country? __________________ M in love Last edited by MKE_M3; 01-03-2013 at 07:35 PM.

01-03-2013, 07:12 PM	#11
Mike Benvo BimmerPost Supporting Vendor Drives: BPMSport M3 / 7 Series Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 3,216 iTrader: (6)	I will never, ever, ever sell this M3. I might get the new one when it comes out (just because I like to have every new BMW!), but this M3 and my 7 series will never leave my fleet. Something about a tightly knit small block V8 at 8,700 RPM really makes me smile. __________________ -----\| Like us on Facebook \| Instagram \|\| Tuning Information \| Remote Coding \|----- ----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. \| Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----

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01-03-2013, 05:29 PM	#2
mhabs Lieutenant Drives: M3 (E90) Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: San Francisco Posts: 448 iTrader: (0)	For me it's always been 1) throttle response, 2) high revs. From how the cars feel to me, all the BMW turbo engines still exhibit turbo-lag, despite everyone saying they don't. It's pretty noticeable, at least to me

01-03-2013, 06:08 PM	#3
JJunkins M3GAHTZ Drives: 2013 E92 M3 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 170 iTrader: (0)	So why not just keep a few spare S65 M3's for fun? No one says ya gotta move into a turbo.

01-03-2013, 07:42 PM	#13
spotshooter Private First Class Drives: 2013 AW M3 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 134 iTrader: (0)	I pulled the trigger on a 2013 for this very reason. The last NA //M motor from BMW. Coming from a turbo N55 engine, nothing compares to the sound and the instant power at hand. The M3 never ceases to impress.