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      12-02-2012, 03:34 PM   #1
BimmFiniti
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Has Audi overtaken BMW with performance cars?

Recent comparison tests show a disturbing trend with new BMW models:
  • Motor Trend, S8 vs Alpina B7: S8 blew it away
  • Road and Track, S7 vs 650 Gran Coupe: S7 pretty clear winner
  • Motor Trend, Panamera GTS (not Audi, I realize) vs M5: M5 absolutely panned as disappointing, big, imprecise

Audi's small Turbo engines seem to be better than BMW's and they also seem to be building lighter, more sporting cars. BMW's electric steering has been criticized as artificial and lacking feel. What the heck is BMW doing? Have they lost the sporting "edge"?

I'm glad I have a "legit" sporting BMW with my E90 (although the steering in my E46 330i is better), but I'm a bit worried about the M3 (and M4?) and whether it will be better than its competition.
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      12-02-2012, 03:38 PM   #2
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meh...
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      12-02-2012, 03:49 PM   #3
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Partly why BMW is moving towards turbos..
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      12-02-2012, 03:58 PM   #4
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      12-02-2012, 04:00 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmFiniti View Post
Recent comparison tests show a disturbing trend with new BMW models:
  • Motor Trend, S8 vs Alpina B7: S8 blew it away
  • Road and Track, S7 vs 650 Gran Coupe: S7 pretty clear winner
  • Motor Trend, Panamera GTS (not Audi, I realize) vs M5: M5 absolutely panned as disappointing, big, imprecise

Audi's small Turbo engines seem to be better than BMW's and they also seem to be building lighter, more sporting cars. BMW's electric steering has been criticized as artificial and lacking feel. What the heck is BMW doing? Have they lost the sporting "edge"?

I'm glad I have a "legit" sporting BMW with my E90 (although the steering in my E46 330i is better), but I'm a bit worried about the M3 (and M4?) and whether it will be better than its competition.
You make some good points .... I wonder about this as well.

BTW, I agree on your about your 330i, I think the gear shift on our 1987 535is is smooth as silk compared to the e92 M3 MT I call it a night and day comparison.
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      12-02-2012, 04:12 PM   #6
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I just don't trust Audi in terms of reliability. My experience with my former s4 was an absolute nightmare. I've several friends who have weird electrical gremlins and other issues with Audi. I would perhaps lease an Audi but would never purchase another one.
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      12-02-2012, 04:44 PM   #7
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Yes, BMW is losing its way for sure.

Not just Motor Trend but a number of magazines have cited the new cars (3 Series, 5 Series) as not quite up to the mark of previous generations.
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      12-02-2012, 05:10 PM   #8
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Definitely Audi is gaining the upper hand with regard to the A4/S4, A6/S6, and A8/S8 vis a vis the new generation BMWs across several comparison tests (and vis-a-vis the consumer). So far the E9x M3 has remained untouchable, but that too will probably change with the F80. It's almost like a perfect role-reversal and a little troubling given BMW had a nearly 50 year dynasty of producing performance sedans that were beyond reproach. Audi has strived to become BMW while BMW is trying to be more like Audi. Short term that will probably work for BMW, but longer-term any company in any industry that abandons its core values or tries to be something else usually doesn't pan out well. Even in the case of Porsche, whom people give a lot of heat for SUVs, large sedans, etc, is still building performance category leaders embracing and emphasizing Porsche's core performance strengths that it built up over decades. The 911 is the epitome of this philosophy...Porsche invested in the same styling/engine setup since the early 60s and faced a ton of criticism for sticking to and reinvesting in the formula until all of a sudden, they nearly perfected the car (despite the 'suboptimal' back of the rear axle engine setup).

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      12-02-2012, 05:19 PM   #9
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I was just reading that article. Audi has taken great strides to be as competitive as possible in the various car segments.

Look at what you get for the pricing that they offer theirs cars at. The S7 is almost $30k cheaper, comes with better performance, interior is top notch (seen in person and drove the S7 on Friday) and what you get as a base package is something heavily optioned in a BMW, MB, Porsche, etc..

If I were shopping for this type of vehicle, the S7 would be a no brainer in my mind.

Also, can we all agree on what the hell BMW IS DOING WITH THEIR BRAKES!!! Sliding calipers belong on a $20k car. Even Buick these days has brembos in their "sportier" cars.

Get with the program BMW.
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      12-02-2012, 05:21 PM   #10
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I really do not like audis... I've worked on them , driven them, etc; still not a fan
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      12-02-2012, 05:23 PM   #11
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What about Audi's reliability and ease to repair (especially DIY)?

I've been reading in another forum that Audi < BMW in terms of reliability, and Audi cars break down often. Wonder if it's all subjective.
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      12-02-2012, 05:28 PM   #12
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They're venturing into a new direction where the competition has more experience and strength. They've seen a lot of their series car buyers move to other brands, namely Audi, so they're changing the series cars to appeal to those buyers. Making them softer makes for a worse platform for M to work with, and in a changing environment with strict fuel requirements and safety standards. Basically, market and political forces.

It's all cyclical though... I think these are teething problems we'll continue to see for a few years as BMW learns forced induction, FWD and AWD, electric steering, etc. BMW and M are innovative though, so I believe in time we'll see the pendulum swing back this way.

For now, I'll enjoy my 2013 M3. Still near perfect 6 years into the model.
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      12-02-2012, 05:35 PM   #13
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Good points...the engineering and innovation cultures at BMW are still good, so maybe not all hope is lost.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimoM3 View Post
They're venturing into a new direction where the competition has more experience and strength. They've seen a lot of their series car buyers move to other brands, namely Audi, so they're changing the series cars to appeal to those buyers. Making them softer makes for a worse platform for M to work with, and in a changing environment with strict fuel requirements and safety standards. Basically, market and political forces.

It's all cyclical though... I think these are teething problems we'll continue to see for a few years as BMW learns forced induction, FWD and AWD, electric steering, etc. BMW and M are innovative though, so I believe in time we'll see the pendulum swing back this way.

For now, I'll enjoy my 2013 M3. Still near perfect 6 years into the model.
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      12-02-2012, 05:37 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by BimmFiniti View Post
Recent comparison tests show a disturbing trend with new BMW models:[*]Motor Trend, S8 vs Alpina B7: S8 blew it away[*]Road and Track, S7 vs 650 Gran Coupe: S7 pretty clear winner[*]Motor Trend, Panamera GTS (not Audi, I realize) vs M5: M5 absolutely panned as disappointing, big, imprecise

Audi's small Turbo engines seem to be better than BMW's and they also seem to be building lighter, more sporting cars. BMW's electric steering has been criticized as artificial and lacking feel. What the heck is BMW doing? Have they lost the sporting "edge"?

I'm glad I have a "legit" sporting BMW with my E90 (although the steering in my E46 330i is better), but I'm a bit worried about the M3 (and M4?) and whether it will be better than its competition.
You could also add:
* S4 > F30 335i
* S6 > 535i
* R8 V10 Plus > anything from BMW
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      12-02-2012, 05:59 PM   #15
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No, I don't think that Audi has overtaken BMW. The current M3 triumphs over the much newer RS5 in nearly every comparison test. The 1M thrashes the TT-RS. And if you want a taste of artificial steering you should drive the new S4.

I think that it's closer than ever in the large performance saloon category, specifically. The M5, Panamera, E63, S models, XFR, etc. all seem legit options.

I am very anxious to see what ///M does with the F80 M3. They seem to be on the right path with it. (EDIT: Given current restrictions.. I'd much prefer an updated S65 + 100 hp )
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      12-02-2012, 06:02 PM   #16
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I like Audi's styling but I have found BMW to be much more reliable and a better balanced chassis. I used to live in MN so Audi Quattro was great for winter driving. I used to have an RS6, S4, S8 and a Q7. All of those cars had odd repair needs. S4 needed a new transmission after 12k miles, Q7 needed an engine repair that took 2 weeks (at 20k miles) and the RS6 had recurring suspension issues. The S8 had a weird electronic glitch that required a reset of the computer to fix (found this out after two shops made multiple attempts to fix over a few weeks). I think Audi is improving but I have had 0 issues with my M3 after 36k miles. Same was true for my '05 e36 M3 and '01 328i back in the day....
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      12-02-2012, 06:31 PM   #17
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I have had 0 issues with my M3 after 36k miles. Same was true for my '05 e36 M3 and '01 328i back in the day....
I think you accidentally typed either a 0 instead of a 9, or a 3 instead of a 4.
Did you have a '95 e36 or '05 e46?
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      12-02-2012, 06:41 PM   #18
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I completely agree with the reliability factor of BMW being far superior. I have come from a long line of RS, S, and AMG models. All of these cars had more issues than you could possibly imagine. Especially the 4.2 V8 platform from Audi.

The only time I have my M in the shop is for performance or cosmetic reasons!

This is why I went to BMW in 2010

I still dabble with the RS brand within Audi (owning a TTRS). I am very happy with vehicle so far. Is it perfect..no. Mostly from a technology standpoint and I wish the seats were better bolstered. But, the engine and tranny have been rock solid and it's never in the shop..knock on wood..ha!

Some great points being made here.. A lot of manufacturers are trying to compete with BMW in reliability. And like one of the posters mentioned, BMW is creating vehicles to compete and regain market share from the brands that have taken business away. As others have mentioned, EPA guidelines are strict these days it almost as though car makers are told how they are allowed to make their cars (except for a few brands like the new Viper as just one example).

One thing in the background not car related is the customer service from BMW. Last year BMW sent me this beautiful carbon fiber pen just as a thank you( I'm sure many of you got this as well). In all the years I've owned Audi and MB, all I get is a crappy magazine and a mass produced letter. BMW goes above and beyond in customer satisfaction. As a result you get loyalty from the customer. I know I will always have a BMW in my garage in one way or another.
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      12-02-2012, 06:46 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmFiniti View Post
Recent comparison tests show a disturbing trend with new BMW models:
  • Motor Trend, S8 vs Alpina B7: S8 blew it away
  • Road and Track, S7 vs 650 Gran Coupe: S7 pretty clear winner
  • Motor Trend, Panamera GTS (not Audi, I realize) vs M5: M5 absolutely panned as disappointing, big, imprecise

Audi's small Turbo engines seem to be better than BMW's and they also seem to be building lighter, more sporting cars. BMW's electric steering has been criticized as artificial and lacking feel. What the heck is BMW doing? Have they lost the sporting "edge"?

I'm glad I have a "legit" sporting BMW with my E90 (although the steering in my E46 330i is better), but I'm a bit worried about the M3 (and M4?) and whether it will be better than its competition.
Why is this even a thread? Volkswago/Audi are not on the same planet. I wouldn't look twice at a Volkswagon/Audi unless its an SUV. That said. I recall a thread where Volkswagon/Audi was being compared to Honda/Acura as they should be. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Sorry to rant but not a fan.
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      12-02-2012, 06:51 PM   #20
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Having driven BMW' for 25 years now, I have a strong feeling that it's all about Marketing now ... I might be wrong ... Some years back the Auto Industry was looking at BMW ... Trying to follow them I mean ... I strongly think that trend is changing.

Too bad ...
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      12-02-2012, 06:55 PM   #21
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Quote:
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Having driven BMW' for 25 years now, I have a strong feeling that it's all about Marketing now ... I might be wrong ... Some years back the Auto Industry was looking at BMW ... Trying to follow them I mean ... I strongly think that trend is changing.

Too bad ...
yeah i have this feeling as well. bmw wont be getting any new business from me i dont think. the greatest drivers cars may have already been made.
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      12-02-2012, 07:09 PM   #22
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If my M3 were totaled right now I would get an Audi RS5. OTOH, when my lease is up I suspect the next M3 will be the car to get. It's a constant battle of competitors and I love it.
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