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      01-11-2013, 04:10 PM   #89
Sal@Evolve
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Noooo..

I am sure there are more people who want to be part of the club!

So can we have a conversion factor for dyno dynamics guys who can joint the club too? LOL
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      01-11-2013, 04:15 PM   #90
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Last edited by happos2; 01-11-2013 at 04:17 PM. Reason: I was too harsh...
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      01-11-2013, 04:32 PM   #91
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      01-11-2013, 04:45 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckRodgers View Post
Im still waiting for your superchargers to make decent power on any dyno other than yours. The only dyno numbers that are anywhere close to average for your kits have been on your dyno posted by you. Maybe before you attack other vendors products you should get your own products in order.

As far as vendors telling other vendors how to post their own dyno results please stop. Like Tom said if you don't like it post your own but don't act like an angry teen on the internet and attack someone because you do not agree with the way they post their own data. Tom has posted very good results from products he does not even sell. What I see from his dyno's is that all the tunes are very close in what they add to these cars. Other mods like exhaust, intakes etc... make more of a difference from one car to the next.

Many people get dyno numbers from independent shops in STD. They often do not have the choice or they simply might not have known any better. Im sure these people appriciate seeing comparison dyno's posted in both SAE and STD for reference, I know I do. I think the real debate here is about ego. Some people seem to be going out of their way to prove they are correct, know more than others and everyone who does not do it their way is wrong.

My opinion is these cars do not make 400+ whp "stock motor" with a tune and bolt on mods but some dyno's can get them there. I believe with proper drivetrain loss calculated they can make about 370-380 whp at best. I made around 340 whp stock on a dynojet which I believe is what these cars make and there is no way in hell bolt on mods and a tune are going to add 60+ hp to this motor.

Nice try all of the new kits were done on a 3rd parties dyno not our own.
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      01-11-2013, 04:46 PM   #93
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I don't usually participate in 400+whp or less threads but when I do I say ....
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      01-11-2013, 04:47 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckRodgers View Post
Im still waiting for your superchargers to make decent power on any dyno other than yours. The only dyno numbers that are anywhere close to average for your kits have been on your dyno posted by you.
AA recently posted Dynojet SAE results of its Level 1 and 2 and 3 kits:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...charger+c38-92

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...vortech+rotrex

The numbers are similar to what many ESS and VFE cars have made.
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      01-11-2013, 04:49 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33
I don't usually participate in 400+whp or less threads but when I do I say ....
Get back to your 600+whp club
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      01-11-2013, 04:51 PM   #96
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Quote:
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I don't usually participate in 400+whp or less threads but when I do I say ....
:
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      01-11-2013, 05:18 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
AA recently posted Dynojet SAE results of its Level 1 and 2 and 3 kits:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...charger+c38-92

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...vortech+rotrex

The numbers are similar to what many ESS and VFE cars have made.
He only has 9 posts
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      01-12-2013, 02:44 AM   #98
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This thread is extremly intresting.
I have a dynojet bench but for bikes and we run a lot of bikes every single week in it.

We are having the same problem as we seem to have here! A few dealers close to us are always dyno the bike with 10-20hp more than we do.
So we took one of our Yamaha R1 and had that done in 5 differnt dealers dynojet and 4 of us showed more or less the exact same hp BUT one showed 15hp more than any of us.
And later it was proved he did manipulate the figures BUT the funny thing is that people still go to him and get their bikes tuned since they get a higher Hp! We have runned so manybikes from this tuner in our Dynojet and they always comes out with a LOT less Hp than on his dyno.

So it is easy to mainpulate the hp figures in any dyno and I think we all need to remember that we can just use the dynos as a guidline. If you want to see the before and after dyno from parts you need to use the same dyno and condition. So many variables that can make it go up or down.

But at least all could agree on showing dynos base on the same correcton factor so at least this is a fair comparison.
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      01-12-2013, 03:40 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Mike does show a graph from a dynapack. A lot. It's even linked in this thread (and many others), so its implied that it's easily reachable and used as a primary means of marketing, thus setting expectations that others can easily reach that number also. I have dynoruns from when his car was dynoed here as well.
I think that's a pretty misleading statement Tom. Those dyno runs were done by Shawn Church who is a very well respected tuner and probably does ten times more volume than ESS, Evolve, and I combined on non German vehicles.

Furthermore, since it's a dynapack it's not going to account for losses attributed to the wheels and tires since it bolts directly to the hubs. The point of a dyno is to show DELTA gains, not compare one to another. I never said reaching a particular number was easily attainable and I have never set unreasonable expectations. I'm sure if you read many of my other posts you'll realize that I'm pretty realistic especially when speaking of dyno numbers. You're comparing apples to oranges.

If you want to post dyno runs from when my car was dynoed well over a year ago with a test file (which made great gains I will add), then please post the dyno of the dyno of the MS intake VS the AFE intake that was done on the same day on your own dyno so everyone can see the difference. At least there was a gain with the tune!

In terms of marketing, I don't really review my own products. Sal touched on the fact that you do. Our tunes sell themselves and we don't post tons of marketing threads at all. In fact, the BPMSport GB was one of the first threads I've ever posted in the sponsors section. I'm rarely over there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Now back to Mike. According to the reviews on the forums, there are a lot of Mike's tunes out there. And a lot of happy users. One of his last posts claimed over 30 of them just in the last session, why wouldn't results be shared? When we do see it, let's see the same info you are requesting from us, including timing and IATs as would only benefit everyone here.

It would definitely add credibility the tuners, as well as back up the claims.
The last group buy had 20 slots and most of them are tuned. They are free to hit the dyno if they want, I can't control peoples lives. I've done a ton of logging on the track and on the dyno. None of your results (aside from posting STD graphs) have IAT measurements.

Stock cars have their timing targets set at 32 degrees. If you dyno a stock car and it hits 32 degrees, keep running it and if you log the timing you'll see that it will drop down lower because of the rising inlet temps. Then flash a tune in and see what it does. There is only so much than can be achieved out of a heatsoaked car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
But we don't tune, only validate. And the dyno doesn't discriminate. That's the difference as there's not an agenda to push. We need examples from tuners, tuning facilities and 3rd parties. We simply can't take only the tuner's word for it anymore.

Producing before/after results on real world vehicles (not his own) should be relatively simple, but doesn't exist. Are we simply supposed to simply take the tuner's word for it? Wouldn't a dyno be an everyday and essential tool used in tuning with plenty of data at hand?
I've never made any unrealistic claims so there is nothing really to dispute here. I have nothing to prove to you. As long as my customers are happy, I am happy. It's not all about numbers and dyno's are not the most accurate tools in the first place. The tune extracts what is safely left on the table without dumbing down any factory safeguards or using any 'tuner' tricks.

When customers that track their car 15 times a year email me and tell me that post tune they've shaved seconds off of their lap times, that's a REAL world result which holds much more bearing than a piece of paper with numbers on it.

I touched on some of these topics here: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...1&postcount=11

I wish this customer would post his dyno but he's probably having too much fun driving his car http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=763362

I've seen a few things from you that I'd like to bring to light but I'm not one to throw rocks in a glass house.
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Last edited by Mike Benvo; 01-12-2013 at 03:49 AM.
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      01-12-2013, 04:15 AM   #100
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These types of threads are in themselves.

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      01-12-2013, 04:18 AM   #101
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Quote:
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Invest in some driver education courses.....best mod i have ever done
Sorry, that does nothing for you with the hood popped up at Starbucks!
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      01-12-2013, 08:34 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post

Those dyno runs were done by Shawn Church who is a very well respected tuner
The Church dynapack is very well respected. It was used by European Car in the recent Turner War competition (EAS competed with its upercharged E92M3 and there were two or three other teams running BMWs). A lot of experienced fabricators and tuners were watching and there were no complaints noted about this dyno. Race gas was allowed.
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      01-12-2013, 10:57 AM   #103
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Dyno packs are only good for one reason ..... Mobility !
To many variables in that dyno , it can easily be manipulated.

Dyno jet is the preferred dyno
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      01-12-2013, 06:11 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
No problem, I'll be in touch soon.

In the meantime, this thread has served it's purpose.
This thread hasnt served anything lol.

I posted with the simple question of asking: what bolt ons are there for M3?

-headers
-tune
-intake
-pulley
-exhaust (catless for more power)

anything else?
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      01-12-2013, 06:39 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRSSIIM3 View Post
This thread hasnt served anything lol.

I posted with the simple question of asking: what bolt ons are there for M3?

-headers
-tune
-intake
-pulley
-exhaust (catless for more power)

anything else?
Ive seen some people using meth kits on the forum but never had the chance to see one in person or dyno one.
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      01-12-2013, 07:05 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRSSIIM3 View Post
This thread hasnt served anything lol.

I posted with the simple question of asking: what bolt ons are there for M3?

-headers
-tune
-intake
-pulley
-exhaust (catless for more power)

anything else?
Ive seen some people using meth kits on the forum but never had the chance to see one in person or dyno one.
I'm not to fond of meth kits but then again drew always saw positive results and I would on one, run and on another it would drop in power but I think that's due to nozzle location .
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      01-12-2013, 07:45 PM   #107
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There is also the question of whether certain mods add any power. Intakes and cat back exhausts, for example, have shown inconsistent results on dynos.

Meth has the effect of increasing the octane when the meth is flowing. Increasing the octane is proven to add power on these cars. Pencilgeek ran race gas with no tune or other changes years ago and gained significant power just from the car adapting and increasing timing. But meth is usually added with one or two nozzles in the intake and that is not as good for dispersion as individual injectors (though some of us remember back to the days of throttle body injection). Vishnu has a Procede with meth injection available avafor these cars and has posted the back to back dyno results and they were impressive -- the tune alone was worth about 10 rwhp and the meth alone was worth about 10 rwhp and together, the two were worth at least 20 rwhp.

E85 is another option that is cheaper than race gas, but not much more widely available. The nearest E85 station for me is about 75 miles, for example. It is also much higher octane, though also less energy so you need about 50% more to make the power, which typically means larger injectors.
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      01-12-2013, 11:51 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Ive seen some people using meth kits on the forum but never had the chance to see one in person or dyno one.
Tom posted my dyno sheet earlier ( post #46 ) in this thread where my car was dynoed with a magnaflow catback, removed second cats, proceed and vishnu meth kit, my car hit the 400 club. Its been rock solid, no issues at all.
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      01-13-2013, 01:48 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Ive seen some people using meth kits on the forum but never had the chance to see one in person or dyno one.
Tom posted my dyno sheet earlier ( post #46 ) in this thread where my car was dynoed with a magnaflow catback, removed second cats, proceed and vishnu meth kit, my car hit the 400 club. Its been rock solid, no issues at all.
Good to hear that.

Longboarder (edit, meant to say Longbow64) had that kit too and had lots of issues with CELs - if I remember correctly, fuel mixture and o2 sensor faults.

After he took the kit off and added our performance software, zero issues to date.

Piggybacks are much more prone to these types of issues but certainly do what they advertise in a roundabout type of way. I'm very interested in tuning a meth kit using the stock DME only. I think that the same gains can be achieved. One benefit of the piggybacks however are aftermarket features which usually can not be implemented with the stock DME only.
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Last edited by Mike Benvo; 01-13-2013 at 04:27 PM.
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      01-13-2013, 02:57 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Good to hear that.

Longboarder had that kit too and had lots of issues with CELs - if I remember correctly, fuel mixture and o2 sensor faults.

After he took the kit off and added our performance software, zero issues to date.

Piggybacks are much more prone to these types of issues but certainly do what they advertise in a roundabout type of way. I'm very interested in tuning a meth kit using the stock DME only. I think that the same gains can be achieved. One benefit of the piggybacks however are aftermarket features which usually can not be implemented with the stock DME only.
What i like about the proceed is if for some reason meth flow stops, the proceed will fall back to the stock map. If you tune a stock ecu for meth, say you run out of meth, now you are tuned too lean/ too much timing. Also, there really isnt a way to control how and when the meth starts to flow and how much of it. I drove for about 6 months without any issues at all! Then again, i havent drove my car is 6 months either
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