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      08-16-2007, 08:43 AM   #23
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If you want to save money, then buy an old used honda or VW diesel for about $2-4K. That's how you save money. Spending $23k on a used car and then trying to make it back through gas savings is dumb. The depreciation alone on a $23k car will be thousands. You will need to get 500 mpg to make up the lost money on the car depreciating in value over the years. Purchasing a $20k + car to save money on gas makes no sense. Buying a cheap, used car will put you way way ahead when it comes to saving money.
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      08-16-2007, 08:45 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by elucas730 View Post
Agreed. In general, people buy hybrids to make it look like they care about the environment, not because they actually care about the environment. If they actually cared about the environment, they'd move out of their McMansions and be biking to work. Hybrids are just a way to make them feeling good about THEMSELVES and ease their conscience. Hybrids do very very little for either the environment OR our dependence on oil. You can get 45-50mpg with a good diesel that costs half the price of a Prius.

Another thing for the OP, until this year, Prius was advertised at 60mpg city and 51mpg highway. That is being dropped this year to be more inline with what it really gets, 50mpg city and 45 mpg highway. If you do a lot of city driving, the Prius makes more sense because at low city speeds (under 32 mph), the Prius is running off of the electric motor. But once you are over 32mph, the electric motor can't power the wheels and you are running solely off of the gas engine, just like any other car.

so you'll support the diesel buyer for getting good mileage/helping environment, but deride someone buying a prius for getting good mileage/helping environment?

I think that anyone getting 45-50mpg in their vehicle is entitled to easing their conscience, no matter what car they drive.
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      08-16-2007, 09:20 AM   #25
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so you'll support the diesel buyer for getting good mileage/helping environment, but deride someone buying a prius for getting good mileage/helping environment?


Until they have a more environmentally frendly way to make and recycle Li-ion batteries, newer generation clean burining diesel is still the better way to go.
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      08-16-2007, 09:39 AM   #26
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From what I know, Toyota is currently the best in this arena. I have friends with the Prius and Highlanders. They do not financially make sense over their gas counterparts, especially with gas going below 2.50. I've often heard $5 gal. is where they will shine. But we all know hybrids are not simply a mathematical equation like health care, they give their owners a lot of satisfaction, not to mention the ability to use the car pool lane as a SOV. The OP sounds like someone who would benefit from a hybrid purchase. GL!

p.s. I wonder if anyone has stuck a synergy drive emblem on their gas powered Highlander in Cali.?
toyota has a greener image than they deserve by far

the prius does get good mileage, but not much better than diesels or other small gas powered cars

the highlander hybrid only cuts a couple miles per gallon off the regular version, to really save gas there are many vehicles on the road that use less fuel than the highlander hybrid

the lexus hybrids don't get better fuel economy than small vehicles either, a GS450h, or LS600h have a greater environmental impact than a 3 series does

Toyota trucks burn just as much gas as the american versions

toyota as a "green" company is complete hogwash

A vehicle isn't "green" because it's a hybrid, if you could use less resources by using a conventional car, the hybrid's an environmental catastrophe
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      08-16-2007, 10:37 AM   #27
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Our city Prius currently is at 39.x MPG for it's lifetime of about 4000 miles. And it uses teh gas motor directly to the wheels any time you accelerate. Ours has this LCD in the middle that is defaulted on either the drivetrain information (how the wheels are getting powered) or consumption. It is a trip to watch the power go from the electric engine to the wheel, then brake and have teh wheels charging the battery.

It's not the total gutless wonder I had expected.
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      08-16-2007, 10:41 AM   #28
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buy one of those new Chinese cars for $7k...

only problem...
They're painted with lead paint
Very high quantites of diethylene glycol
and failed the crash test worse then Coke addict who cant get his fix.
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      08-16-2007, 10:55 AM   #29
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Here is a study done my CNW Research about the lifetime energy cost of a vehicle. It is a "dust to dust" study, meaning how much energy was used to make it, how much it uses in a lifetime, and how much energy is used to scrap it. It is updated for the 2006 model year.

http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automoti...%20VERSION.pdf

The most "energy efficient" model based on those criteria is a Scion xB, followed by the Ford Escort and the Jeep Wrangler 4x4 coming in 3rd. The Scion has a lifetime energy expense of $0.48/mile. In comparison, the Prius has a lifetime energy expense of $3.25/mile!

Interesting reading, but rather long at nearly 500 pages....
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      08-16-2007, 11:09 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poiney View Post
so you'll support the diesel buyer for getting good mileage/helping environment, but deride someone buying a prius for getting good mileage/helping environment?

I think that anyone getting 45-50mpg in their vehicle is entitled to easing their conscience, no matter what car they drive.
The point of getting good mileage is to reduce the amount of money you are spending on transportation. With the extra cost of the Prius, you will save much more money buying a cheaper diesel. And they aren't really that much more environmentally friendly.
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      08-16-2007, 11:18 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scollins View Post
Interesting reading, but rather long at nearly 500 pages....
Wow, that is very interesting.

One semi-slam on hybrid owners as poseurs -- pp. 74-75: "But a strong reason for selecting a hybrid is the 'distinctive styling' or styling ques [sic] it projects or has. Insight buyers and Prius owners list this as a highly critical reason for making the particular selection. This also a likely reason the Ford Escape and Honda hybrids seem to be languishing. It [sic] simply can't be identified easily as a hybrid and for the premium paid it lacks instant recognition."

Sorry for the [sic] entries above, but the article is peppered with grammatical mistakes and misspellings. The fact that it is so poorly written makes me wonder how much to trust the content (i.e., it seems a little unprofessional), but the data is very interesting if it is accurate.

BTW - I do not suggest to label the OP a poseur -- far from it. I just found it interesting to see the article suggest that many hybrid purchasers are just looking for the image.
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      08-16-2007, 11:36 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinbev View Post
Oh and the batteries have a 10 year warranty. The car also has a 6 year powertrain warranty that covers the car bumper to bumper. I'm about to get one myself for my daily driver.
They do have a 10 year warranty against damage, not against them slowly losing their ability to hold a charge. After 5 years, most hybrid batteries have lost a good amount of rechargeability (something like 60% of new batteries). These batteries are no different than batteries that your cell-phone uses (and we all know how well they hold a charge after a few years).
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      08-16-2007, 11:36 AM   #33
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Listen, just be the selfish bastard you already are and keep the BMW and have some fun; like we all do.

You're not going to save the world by driving a car, hybrid or not. Man-made global warming is a bunch of BS. The Earth didn't have people, or animals, on it for a long long time. Animal life is really a new thing for our planet. So if we all go extinct because the Earth warms up 5,000 years from now, then so be it. I really don't understand why anyone worries about this crap. If you worry about your children’s children’s children's children... you'll be so far down the family tree they won't even remember you anyway.

Enjoy life. Don't feel guilty about it!

BTW you exhale CO2 just like everyone else. You are part of the problem too.
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      08-16-2007, 12:46 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ENINTY View Post
Listen, just be the selfish bastard you already are and keep the BMW and have some fun; like we all do.

You're not going to save the world by driving a car, hybrid or not. Man-made global warming is a bunch of BS. The Earth didn't have people, or animals, on it for a long long time. Animal life is really a new thing for our planet. So if we all go extinct because the Earth warms up 5,000 years from now, then so be it. I really don't understand why anyone worries about this crap. If you worry about your children’s children’s children's children... you'll be so far down the family tree they won't even remember you anyway.

Enjoy life. Don't feel guilty about it!

BTW you exhale CO2 just like everyone else. You are part of the problem too.
At this rate of destruction, it wouldn't take 5000 years. I bet in less than 50 years, there is already going to be some extremely drastic changes that no one right now can imagine. This is of course, we keep our current practices. Stop denying that humans are the main propulsion of world wide climate changes. The actual arguments that can be made to prove humans are not the cause is extremely weak.

Right now, we are observing 'dramatic' climate changes. Not over thousands of years but over the last few decades. In the past, before our species exists if you like, take earth thousands of years to observe the same type of climate changes.

And don't be so ignorant as to thinking global warming won't affect you but only your 'extremely distant generations'.

Animals exhaling CO2 is not a problem at all. This is part of the ecological cycle. CO2 is provide for plants to survive but cars 'exhale' CO2 at thousands of times faster than any one could and by doing this, you are upsetting the ecological balance. Not to mention all the emissions that is created in making the resources available to operate/manufacture a car.

Finally, if you want to be ignorant, so be it. I am sure you are not the only one around who thinks like this. But please, don't start claiming these global warming/climate change issues BS and saying humans are not the main cause of these problems.
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      08-16-2007, 01:32 PM   #35
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At this rate of destruction, it wouldn't take 5000 years. I bet in less than 50 years, there is already going to be some extremely drastic changes that no one right now can imagine.
Regardless, if global warming is man made or not, we still should try to use less oil just so we put less money into the Middle East. Period.

I don't like the idea that we are a country at war with people who want to kill us, and their only money maker is oil. We need to take that away from them.

So for now, anybody who wants to drive a diesel, hybrid, or economical 4 cylinder car has my blessing. It's amazing because I live in south Florida, and everywhere I look I see these 4x4 SUVs. There is absolutely no need for an SUV here in the hot and flat terrain of Florida. It's simply retarded.
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      08-16-2007, 09:24 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by elucas730 View Post
The point of getting good mileage is to reduce the amount of money you are spending on transportation. With the extra cost of the Prius, you will save much more money buying a cheaper diesel. And they aren't really that much more environmentally friendly.
The point of getting good mileage to you maybe financial, but not to the prius driver or to some diesel buyers. That's the point. They don't mind paying extra if its for a good cause.

Don't forget that clean diesel is a new thing, and as yet, as not been an option in some states including mine. If it were, I like to believe that we would see a lot more 335d on the road, rather than 335i.
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      08-16-2007, 09:44 PM   #37
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The point of getting good mileage to you maybe financial, but not to the prius driver or to some diesel buyers. That's the point. They don't mind paying extra if its for a good cause.

Don't forget that clean diesel is a new thing, and as yet, as not been an option in some states including mine. If it were, I like to believe that we would see a lot more 335d on the road, rather than 335i.
so how is a prius greener than say a yaris or civic?
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      08-16-2007, 10:33 PM   #38
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you're better off picking up a smaller compact car like yaris or honda fit. they are cheaper(around 15k+) and the savings you get from there is more significant. the 10k you save from buying a prius will get you alot mileage
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      08-16-2007, 10:46 PM   #39
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so how is a prius greener than say a yaris or civic?
Proportional to the relative mileage difference (although no battery pack is a counter advantage).

I still have preference for electric (or hybrid) or diesel since they are better designs than gasoline ICE, at least in the long run.

Regardless, and as your question suggests, I am still a big supporter of anyone driving an underpowered engine (e.g., civic, yaris) in an effort to reduce fossil fuel consumption. And if they REALLY do it purely to save money, well then, they still get kudos because the end result is the same.

I admit that I am too selfish, but I am also irritated that there doesn't seem to be a market for those that want fun-to-drive cars with good gas mileage (e.g., affordable, more practical Tesla).
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      08-16-2007, 10:59 PM   #40
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people who support plug in electrics often forget that fossil fuel is still burned to create the electricity that powers them, it's just burned at a power plant rather than the vehicle itself
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      08-16-2007, 11:57 PM   #41
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As long as youre generalizing, it could be that they are better informed than non-hybrid drivers.
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      08-17-2007, 12:51 PM   #42
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It'll take a veeery long time to rack up the mileage to eventuially pay for the premium of a hybrid car.

Buy a cheaper car.
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      08-17-2007, 02:26 PM   #43
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One of my neighbors has a Civic Hybrid. He mentioned that he had a lot of buyers remorse over getting it because the gas mileage isn't that much better than the regular Civic. At that time we still had an '06 Civic LX that was rated 30/40 (old standards) mpg's whereas his was rated at 49/51 mpg. He spent quite a bit more than we did for our's (like $5000 more?)and he was usually seeing about 45mpg average, where we were getting about 38mpg on highway trips.

I remember reading an article that said you'd have to drive over 160,000 miles to break-even on the Civic Hybrid.
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      08-17-2007, 04:53 PM   #44
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Quote:
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At this rate of destruction, it wouldn't take 5000 years. I bet in less than 50 years, there is already going to be some extremely drastic changes that no one right now can imagine. This is of course, we keep our current practices. Stop denying that humans are the main propulsion of world wide climate changes. The actual arguments that can be made to prove humans are not the cause is extremely weak.

Right now, we are observing 'dramatic' climate changes. Not over thousands of years but over the last few decades. In the past, before our species exists if you like, take earth thousands of years to observe the same type of climate changes.

And don't be so ignorant as to thinking global warming won't affect you but only your 'extremely distant generations'.

Animals exhaling CO2 is not a problem at all. This is part of the ecological cycle. CO2 is provide for plants to survive but cars 'exhale' CO2 at thousands of times faster than any one could and by doing this, you are upsetting the ecological balance. Not to mention all the emissions that is created in making the resources available to operate/manufacture a car.

Finally, if you want to be ignorant, so be it. I am sure you are not the only one around who thinks like this. But please, don't start claiming these global warming/climate change issues BS and saying humans are not the main cause of these problems.
I am quite informed on it actually. I review the scientific data. I understand the Earth cycles between cooling and warming periods. It's been warmer than now before, and it's been cooler than now before. My point is you try to believe the environment is at the status quo because it now supports Human life, when the geological evidence proves that the climate will change and is constantly changing regardless of what or who lives on Earth. There is geological proof that in the past 100,000 years there has been over 15 times the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere then there is today. There is geological proof that the sun temperature cycles affect the climate. Read other things than just one side of the issue. Stop believing "projections" and look at scientific evidence. The greenhouse effect is actually what keeps the climate habitable for life. You look at one micro-second of geological time and call it bad climate change. Be realistic.

If you think we'll be dead in 50 years, than please stop driving your car. What can you possibly do that is so more important than the survival of the planet?
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