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      12-18-2012, 05:59 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by SamS View Post
Seems kinda strange to me to go from a 2011 to a 2013, for basically a tranny change. Car basically looks the same either color when you're driving

I could almost see going from a 2008 (old iDrive, maybe you've had it since new) to a 2012 last year. Then you could enjoy the 'newness' of the car and features, and have a '12 for 2-3 years until the F80/F82 comes out. 2011 to 2013 is basically the same car. And in the short term, '13 resale values are gonna drop like a rock when the F80 debuts. Remember how many people really wanted an E46 M3 right after the E9x M3 debuted? Not many. Sure, people will always want the "old" car, but resale values never keep up.

If I was the OP, I'd go test drive a 650i, M6, or maybe even a 991. If you're paying cash for a new M3, then an M6 or 991 shouldn't really be a stretch.

Life is short... drive some different cars
Just look at how people received the new M5 now that there's no more high rev N/A engines!
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      12-18-2012, 06:00 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by bvanderbilt View Post
Everybody has an opinion on the 6MT in the M3; I am sure I will not convince you. But the 6MT in this car requires specific driver adaptations. When I first got mine I was disappointed. Now I think it is one of the best transmissions I have ever used. I love it and I seemingly cannot execute anything other than a perfect shift every time; it's like it is connected to my brain. But it took me a long time to figure out how to use it properly.

In my opinion a lot of people try to adapt the transmission to what they are used to rather than the other way around. Change the knob to something with more weight, modify the pedal, remove the spring. These band-aids actually make the problems worse.

My further thoughts here: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...9&postcount=33 ..

I've met a couple M3 owners who are not enthusiasts/forum members and they all said some variation of "do you have a problem getting a smooth shift into 2nd?" ... so a common problem with this car that I've managed to completely eliminate by changing only my technique.

YMMV
I have no intentions of making it feel like another car, but the stock shifter doesn't feel good at all. And they aren't band-aids because I'm just using the shift knob that BMW put on all their other cars that have been highly praised for their manual transmissions. And in the end it's a 100% improvement with no negative side effects.

For what it's worth, I never had any shifting problems with this car. Unless you are drag racing, there's no reason to shift extremely fast and that's not what this car was intended for. But you really have to wonder why the 1M coupe's MT feels so much better than the M3. Even the new M5 uses the ZHP knob. M division must also know that it's a much better knob.
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      12-18-2012, 06:07 PM   #47
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Solution:
Get a M5 manual
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      12-18-2012, 06:09 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex07M3 View Post
Just look at how people received the new M5 now that there's no more high rev N/A engines!
I assume you're referring to the fact that the new M5 has be near-universally praised by both owners and press? I love the sound the E60 M5 makes. But hardly anyone can deny that the F10M is just a better overall package.

I have no doubt the same conclusions will be drawn about the F80 M3 compared to the E9x versions.
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      12-18-2012, 06:38 PM   #49
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I assume you're referring to the fact that the new M5 has be near-universally praised by both owners and press? I love the sound the E60 M5 makes. But hardly anyone can deny that the F10M is just a better overall package.

I have no doubt the same conclusions will be drawn about the F80 M3 compared to the E9x versions.
I was talking about the fact that no one was disapointed to ear that the M3 would go from high rev N/A 6cyl in the E46 to high rev N/A V8 when the E9x came out. Not comparable to what a lot of enthusiast on this forums are thinking about M cars going to F/I and in the M5 case, fake engine noise also!
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      12-18-2012, 06:46 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by av2
Colors are personal preference, so I'll leave that alone. As for the transmission, the M3 seems to be built around this DCT, and it fits the characteristics of the car very well. All the newer generation sports cars and super cars are using it and for a good reason, performance. If you miss driving a manual, use the price difference to get a 2nd car that is built around a manual transmission.
Amen to that. I completely missed driving a manual after dct so I picked an e36m. So fun to beat that thing around in a stick. You really couldn't get full use of the 6mt in the v8 IMO. Too much power for daily use
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      12-18-2012, 07:48 PM   #51
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I am confused by this line of reasoning. I faced the same dilemma, did a bunch of research, and came to the conclusion that the only thing that actually made sense was to get a 2013 E92. Will be selling my 2011. I got 6MT both times in similar configurations -- speed cloth, competition package, carbon roof. Only change is the color!

Short hand notes, most of it my opinion of course:

1) I don't like sedans
2) I don't like the new non-M BMWs; the throttle lag drives me nuts and takes the fun out of driving.
3) No new M3 coupe out till 2015.. so much for "instantly outdated."
4) Very few cars have a small displacement V8 that revs to 8400rpm with individual throttle bodies that responds instantly to any input and makes the best noises above 5K this side of Ferrari.
5) The M3 has an excellent 6MT, which I prefer for involvement (you can't drive that fast in the USA anyway) where as this is an afterthought or non-existent for everyone else except Porsche in this category.
6) Sad to say but the E92 M3 now looks like a lightweight car compared to other offerings
7) The M3's competitors:
a) S5 = basically a joke at the asking price
b) RS5 = more expensive and too soft
c) 2013 Cayman S = REALLY nice but being <100hp down with the Porsche exhaust note killed it for me
d) Previous generation Cayman = too ugly IMO
e) Boxster = IMO can't get over the Boxster stigma
f) CTS-V = totally not my style
g) C63 = really not my style; don't like brute power; don't like the styling at all
h) 911 = either a used car or double the price for a new one ?? no thanks
i) Lexus IS-F = IMO a total POS of a car; would never drive one, a poorly executed attempt to copy the M3, why drive the crappy copy when you can have the original?

Did I miss anything? There is no other 35XXlb coupe with a high-revving 8400rpm V8 and a great, smooth 6MT on the market right now or planned to be on the market that I am aware of. Oh, and the car needs 2-3 oil changes and NOTHING else and is in shop for an hour a year.

+ big factor: I do ED leases, get a nice Euro trip every two-three years and I pay <$600/mo for the M3 $0 down and end up with significant equity in the lease due to USA residual. I am a numbers guy -- BMW's lease programs are unparalleled, nobody else has the MSD option that saves a ton of money for letting BMW hold a tiny bit of capital for a while. Oh, and BMW is offering $2500 off the M3 this month.

So all these factors... considering equity in a lease and an even cheaper payment for a brand new car.. what ELSE would you get?
+1000 ^^^^
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      12-18-2012, 07:49 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Alex07M3 View Post
I was more talking about the fact that no one was disapointed to ear that the M3 would go from high rev N/A 6cyl in the E46 to high rev N/A V8 when the E9x came out.
Actually people were up in arms, a lot of people swore they would never buy the E9X because the "M division has given up on the inline 6".

People make the argument that "every generation thus far has been an improvement over the last one."

Well yeah, but look at the E9X M3. The budget for the car must have been astronomical. One off engine not used anywhere else. Only the doors and the trunk lid (if I remember correctly) are shared with the 3-series. 5K worth of CF roof on top and 20K worth of suspension upgrades underneath. All for a single model run of one low volume (compared to overall sales) car.

That kind of staggering expense is dead and gone and cost-cutting is in due to the economic downturn; no-one, even BMW M was immune. So efficiency and cross-company sharing are now the name of the game.

Will the F30 M3 be better than the E92 M3? Possibly. But the E92 M3 is the last of its breed in a way that the E46 was not. Not only will the new car be turbocharged (with all the implications thereof) but the car will not be a dedicated M car with 99% of parts separate from mainline production with an esoteric engine. Can M still turn out something spectacular under their new constraints? I'm sure they can! But how much more amazing would the F30 be if it was coming out before the fiscal crisis rather than in 2012? We will never know.

Therefore I think most of the arguments about "Hey, look at the past" are invalid in this case because the past situation was nothing like what is happening now. That's why I'm more than happy to pick up the last of the E92 M3s exactly how I want it on a lease. If the F30 is amazing and resale plummets then I win because I leased. If the F30 sucks then I have the option of keeping the car - or selling what will be probably the most desirable (minimal) configuration. Win.

Last edited by bvanderbilt; 12-18-2012 at 07:56 PM.
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      12-18-2012, 08:12 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanderbilt View Post
Everybody has an opinion on the 6MT in the M3; I am sure I will not convince you. But the 6MT in this car requires specific driver adaptations. When I first got mine I was disappointed. Now I think it is one of the best transmissions I have ever used. I love it and I seemingly cannot execute anything other than a perfect shift every time; it's like it is connected to my brain. But it took me a long time to figure out how to use it properly.

In my opinion a lot of people try to adapt the transmission to what they are used to rather than the other way around. Change the knob to something with more weight, modify the pedal, remove the spring. These band-aids actually make the problems worse.

My further thoughts here: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...9&postcount=33 ..

I've met a couple M3 owners who are not enthusiasts/forum members and they all said some variation of "do you have a problem getting a smooth shift into 2nd?" ... so a common problem with this car that I've managed to completely eliminate by changing only my technique.

YMMV
I never had any major issue with the M3's shifter or clutch. From my first test drive, I was able to use them perfectly, and they felt very natural. I love the lightness of the clutch. The shifter could be slightly better weighted, but that didn't change the functionality. I never had trouble going into any gear, and the lightness of everything lets you fire off really fast shifts. The "rubbery" feeling improves with time.
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      12-18-2012, 09:39 PM   #54
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Pure white is sporty on a e92 m3...mineral white..is not as sporty to me though.
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      12-18-2012, 09:46 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Alex07M3 View Post
I was talking about the fact that no one was disapointed to ear that the M3 would go from high rev N/A 6cyl in the E46 to high rev N/A V8 when the E9x came out. Not comparable to what a lot of enthusiast on this forums are thinking about M cars going to F/I and in the M5 case, fake engine noise also!

many people were upset as the BMW inline 6 is considered the holy grail by many. Sure now that the e9x has been around and e60 m5 people love the s65 and s85 but there's nothing like a BMW inline 6
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      12-18-2012, 09:50 PM   #56
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Actually people were up in arms, a lot of people swore they would never buy the E9X because the "M division has given up on the inline 6".

People make the argument that "every generation thus far has been an improvement over the last one."

Well yeah, but look at the E9X M3. The budget for the car must have been astronomical. One off engine not used anywhere else. Only the doors and the trunk lid (if I remember correctly) are shared with the 3-series. 5K worth of CF roof on top and 20K worth of suspension upgrades underneath. All for a single model run of one low volume (compared to overall sales) car.
I agree that it is (was) nice to have a car that obviously cost so much in R&D and material cost, relative to its MSRP. And the benefits of all that expense were/are definitely realized.

However, there have been lots of advancements in the past 10 years in regards to manufacturing tolerances, weight reduction, improved ECU, mechanical components like differentials, etc.

Just look at the interior of the M6, or it's new diff. Those two things would have been impossible, or cost prohibitive in 2006 when the E9x M3 was in development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanderbilt View Post
That kind of staggering expense is dead and gone and cost-cutting is in due to the economic downturn; no-one, even BMW M was immune. So efficiency and cross-company sharing are now the name of the game.

Will the F30 M3 be better than the E92 M3? Possibly. But the E92 M3 is the last of its breed in a way that the E46 was not. Not only will the new car be turbocharged (with all the implications thereof) but the car will not be a dedicated M car with 99% of parts separate from mainline production with an esoteric engine. Can M still turn out something spectacular under their new constraints? I'm sure they can! But how much more amazing would the F30 be if it was coming out before the fiscal crisis rather than in 2012? We will never know.

Therefore I think most of the arguments about "Hey, look at the past" are invalid in this case because the past situation was nothing like what is happening now. That's why I'm more than happy to pick up the last of the E92 M3s exactly how I want it on a lease. If the F30 is amazing and resale plummets then I win because I leased. If the F30 sucks then I have the option of keeping the car - or selling what will be probably the most desirable (minimal) configuration. Win.
Just a small nit-pick... the replacement for the M3 is chassis code F80/F82/F83.

Of course the past is not the same as it is now, but in many ways it is better. We already see the F20 M135i running almost the same lap time as the 1M.

The E92 M3 was no more the last of it's breed than the E46 (straight 6, NA). Maybe the E46 can even be considered "more pure" because of all the elecro-wizardry in the E9x M models, that will surely be bettered by the F80 cars.

One thing is for sure, the E9x M3 feels pretty heavy. So much so that it takes some fun out of driving it. BMW M GmbH have already said the new car will be lighter and faster. What's not to love about that?
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      12-18-2012, 09:53 PM   #57
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Your car is gorgeous. However, don't you think paying $5000 for some stitching a bit of a poor value proposition? "Individual" has always been a gimmick to me, e.g. "pick from these five colors we're willing to do, for a truly custom car." ...what?

I was impressed by that guy that stitched his existing stitching. It looked OEM. And easily returnable to stock.
A much poorer value proposition is changing a car for a 2 years-newer same model, same version, car.

Now, if you are itching to go there -cost becomes irrelevant once the itching to swap sinks in- then go further in, IMO. European Delivery, Individual, Performance Delivery, whatever... just do something special.

But going to the dealer and doing the same thing over for basically the same thing is just boring.
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      12-18-2012, 10:43 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanderbilt View Post
+ big factor: I do ED leases, get a nice Euro trip every two-three years and I pay <$600/mo for the M3 $0 down and end up with significant equity in the lease due to USA residual. I am a numbers guy -- BMW's lease programs are unparalleled, nobody else has the MSD option that saves a ton of money for letting BMW hold a tiny bit of capital for a while. Oh, and BMW is offering $2500 off the M3 this month.

So all these factors... considering equity in a lease and an even cheaper payment for a brand new car.. what ELSE would you get?
Good points on your thread, very valid arguments and all vehicle comparisons are subjective....

If you are a numbers guy however (I definitely am one), replacing a 2011 M3 with an identical car with a different color at a time where dealers are no longer offering big ED savings further makes no sense. Strictly looking at it from a numbers point of view.

Either way, it appears OP made the right decision by keeping his 2011.
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      12-18-2012, 11:06 PM   #59
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get something else
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      12-19-2012, 12:53 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donovan
Pure white is sporty on a e92 m3...mineral white..is not as sporty to me though.
Yea MW is like the pearly Lexus white of the nineties. If u still see those around today, mw will look like that after several years. Yellowy white
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      12-19-2012, 01:54 AM   #61
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Give your car a pat on the roof, it's blower time!

DCT/Jet Black here as well, but I kept mine stock externally, I like the contrast between the paint color and the silver wheels and grill, personal thing. In my opinion AW has been overdone with the M3. It looks great, but wouldn't justify trading in my book. As far as the DCT goes, I had an MT in a previous E90 and I was disappointed, DCT seemed to be a good match for the E92 M3. So far I still really like it, but I might go back to a manual one day if the car was designed for it, e.g. 1M.
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      12-19-2012, 06:19 AM   #62
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Quote:
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Good points on your thread, very valid arguments and all vehicle comparisons are subjective....

If you are a numbers guy however (I definitely am one), replacing a 2011 M3 with an identical car with a different color at a time where dealers are no longer offering big ED savings further makes no sense. Strictly looking at it from a numbers point of view.

Either way, it appears OP made the right decision by keeping his 2011.
I was able to get near ED invoice on the 2013. The 2013 will actually be $100 cheaper per/mo than my 2011 and the equity in my 2011 nearly covers all the lease payments I made. How can you beat that?
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      12-19-2012, 08:13 AM   #63
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I have no intentions of making it feel like another car, but the stock shifter doesn't feel good at all. And they aren't band-aids because I'm just using the shift knob that BMW put on all their other cars that have been highly praised for their manual transmissions. And in the end it's a 100% improvement with no negative side effects.

For what it's worth, I never had any shifting problems with this car. Unless you are drag racing, there's no reason to shift extremely fast and that's not what this car was intended for. But you really have to wonder why the 1M coupe's MT feels so much better than the M3. Even the new M5 uses the ZHP knob. M division must also know that it's a much better knob.
I took a saw to my stock gearknob within 24 hours of purchasing the car. I absolutely couldn't stand it. Put a ZHP knob on there, and the car was transformed. It's amazing how big of a difference a $60 mod can make (I actually pulled the ZHP knob out of my old 328i E46 haha).

Driven only DCT cars (on Autobahn, race tracks in England, and back roads in Germany and Austria). Loved it. But I have to say I'm 100% happy I went with MT. It's almost like a different car, but it'll be the last of its kind. N/A V8 with MT? Yea she's a keeper (color combo helps too).
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      12-19-2012, 09:10 AM   #64
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You are definitely going to be disappointed with the difference in acceleration. Dct's shorter gears and immediate shifts contribute a pretty big difference in speed from the manual. I had both. But once you get over (if you get over) the performance difference, you will enjoy rowing through the gears in the manual. I miss my m3 and gt3 for that reason.
Frankly.. having driven auto and manual versions of the same car(different car, same concept), I don't notice a difference in acceleration.

if anything, the manual version feels faster, and maybe that's because there's less drivetrain loss which may not be strictly relevent in my comparison since the 'auto' was a plain planetary gear/ Torque converter auto and a DCT has less DTL than this trans.

In any event.. I don't say outloud 'damn, that felt 3/10ths slower than my old car' every time I mash the pedal. That simply does not happen anywhere except on an internet forum.
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      12-19-2012, 09:31 AM   #65
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MT > DCT imo anyway... but I don't think its "dumb" "stupid" etc; to have one car and get a new one ? my uncle gets new 5 series every year or 2 , I had a z06 , i would still buy another z06 .

Personally I love a white/red m3 hence why i ordered mine and just received it. black is sexy too but brutal to care for , only reason my z06 was black was because it was pre-owned.
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      12-19-2012, 09:36 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by lolwut View Post
Frankly.. having driven auto and manual versions of the same car(different car, same concept), I don't notice a difference in acceleration.

if anything, the manual version feels faster, and maybe that's because there's less drivetrain loss which may not be strictly relevent in my comparison since the 'auto' was a plain planetary gear/ Torque converter auto and a DCT has less DTL than this trans.

In any event.. I don't say outloud 'damn, that felt 3/10ths slower than my old car' every time I mash the pedal. That simply does not happen anywhere except on an internet forum.
Absolutely not. I have driven both mt and dct back to back and yes the dct feels faster. You have an extra gear and you can also downshift into first which. Makes driving around town feel a little peppier rather than lugging the car in second. That being said I still have my MT
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