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      09-09-2013, 06:27 AM   #1
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E85, tune and fuel system for FI

has anyone ever thought about doing a full e85 tune on there FI m3?

what would the good and bad things about it?

could we run a little more boost on our stock motors?
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      09-09-2013, 09:19 AM   #2
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I wouldn't push the stock motor any further. E85 is fine but I wouldn't even think about adding any more boost.
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      09-09-2013, 09:28 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by THE TECH View Post
I wouldn't push the stock motor any further. E85 is fine but I wouldn't even think about adding any more boost.
what kind of power do you think you would see with e85?
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      09-09-2013, 09:34 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh View Post
what kind of power do you think you would see with e85?
I don't like to speculate. With the number of blown motors without E85, I believe that the ceiling has already been found with the current s/c power levels. Because this motor is fairly expensive, I wouldn't suggest pushing it any further without it being fully built.
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      09-09-2013, 09:56 AM   #5
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what kind of power do you think you would see with e85?
Ask Bren@BrenTuning
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      09-09-2013, 11:44 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE TECH View Post
I wouldn't push the stock motor any further. E85 is fine but I wouldn't even think about adding any more boost.
Agreed, the internals will not handle it long term.
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      09-09-2013, 11:48 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh View Post
what kind of power do you think you would see with e85?
There's no doubt you can make more power with E85, even a mix helps quite a bit, but even with a mix you should go with a larger single pump or a two pump setup on your car to keep it safe. A twin pump setup would be better, as keeping the stock pump is more ideal and it's a good pump as well. Going over 600whp on this car with stock internals is pushing it too far IMHO, safer to build the motor and lower the compression.
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      09-09-2013, 12:08 PM   #8
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Running E85 requires more capacity than the stock fuel system can supply with FI. A VT1-550 kit is most likely the level of kit that could safely run E85 without upgrading the stock fuel system. Cars running higher HP will quickly max out the stock fuel system resulting in the car running lean. Higher boost / HP M3's already push the stock fuel system to it's limits.

The reason for running an E85 system would be to make additional power without adding more boost to the motor not to also run additional boost. Race fuel and high quality fuel will do just fine to limit detonation with higher boost levels, E85 is not required for this. The issue with this motor is not fuel related when it comes to high boost it is stress on the motors internals. The point at which we feel is the limit for this motors on 93+ AKI fuel is 8 psi if your goal is long term use. If you want to ride the jagged edge you can run 9 psi but at this point you have almost no safety margin or room for error. This opinion may vary depending on who you talk with but with years of in house testing and over 700 E9X M3's supercharged worldwide we have seen first hand the result of high boost on the S65 motor. This is not something we are guessing at or talking in theory. Over the years we have had several customers who decided to run high boost on our kits with the stock motor only to later on inform us that they had one really good year with the car and that is was very fast while it lasted. If you think the stock motor is fine with high boost just because you run quality fuel or E85 you will most likely be in the market for a new motor in the near future.

If you want to run high boost safely do what others like DLSJ5 have done and lower the CR. This will allow higher boost levels with pump fuel. We are working on a system that will supply additional fuel for E85 use along with proper software but there is still in house testing that needs to be done before we can release it to the public.
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      09-09-2013, 12:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
If you want to run high boost safely do what others like DLSJ5 have done and lower the CR. This will allow higher boost levels with pump fuel. We are working on a system that will supply additional fuel for E85 use along with proper software but there is still in house testing that needs to be done before we can release it to the public.
Bingo, it does not matter what fuel you run the cylinder pressure is too high for it to live with stock internals. Very informative post, thanks Roman
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      09-09-2013, 01:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
Bingo, it does not matter what fuel you run the cylinder pressure is too high for it to live with stock internals. Very informative post, thanks Roman
Thank God there are still mature, knowledgable enthusiasts like you in the E9X M3 platform, I've been getting a little concerned over the last couple of days.
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      09-09-2013, 04:36 PM   #11
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How about e85 and 8psi still?
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      09-09-2013, 04:57 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh View Post
How about e85 and 8psi still?
It will make more power if you are tuned for it but then you are stuck running it and you are doing more damage than not running it IMHO. Likewise if you leave everything else the same it will make less power than gasoline.
Furthermore E85 fuel is absolute junk, it sucks up water so fast it is crazy, it will ruin the fuel system if run for extended periods of time without cycling new fuel through the tank all the time. The only reason for running it is so you can lean on the motor more, but it is already maxed out so there is no point. If the block could handle 800hp then run it, lay the timing to it and lean it out. That is not possible though unless you spend some massive money on motor work.
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      09-09-2013, 05:17 PM   #13
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I agree with Kawasaki above, E85 is not a necessary addition to the S65 in stock form.

Ultimately any engine converting to E85 from a standard gasoline fuel system needs a tremendous increase in fuel delivery. The M3's original fuel pump does not have miles of reserve when used with a high output supercharger kit, and as Roman said will not have enough capacity to provide adequate fuel for an E85 setup.
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      09-09-2013, 05:20 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
It will make more power if you are tuned for it but then you are stuck running it and you are doing more damage than not running it IMHO. Likewise if you leave everything else the same it will make less power than gasoline.
Furthermore E85 fuel is absolute junk, it sucks up water so fast it is crazy, it will ruin the fuel system if run for extended periods of time without cycling new fuel through the tank all the time. The only reason for running it is so you can lean on the motor more, but it is already maxed out so there is no point. If the block could handle 800hp then run it, lay the timing to it and lean it out. That is not possible though unless you spend some massive money on motor work.
E85 fuel demands are increased over unleaded gasoline. What do you mean by "lean it out?"
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      09-09-2013, 05:43 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYZ View Post
E85 fuel demands are increased over unleaded gasoline. What do you mean by "lean it out?"
Relative to stoich, you can get away with a leaner mixture with e85 because the octane is higher. For relative sake the a/f for gas is 14.7 and the a/f for e85 is about 9.7. Everyone knows the car is on its face at 14.7 though, you can get closer to that stoich number with e85
Ex, if you run a s/c setup with gas and you know your target a/f you can run leaner with the e85 than with gas and make more power. But, you paint yourself into a corner because then you can never put gas back in the car unless you switch tunes.
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      09-09-2013, 06:15 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
Relative to stoich, you can get away with a leaner mixture with e85 because the octane is higher. For relative sake the a/f for gas is 14.7 and the a/f for e85 is about 9.7. Everyone knows the car is on its face at 14.7 though, you can get closer to that stoich number with e85
Ex, if you run a s/c setup with gas and you know your target a/f you can run leaner with the e85 than with gas and make more power. But, you paint yourself into a corner because then you can never put gas back in the car unless you switch tunes.
That's what I figured you meant. Thanks for clarifying.
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      09-10-2013, 02:38 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
Thank God there are still mature, knowledgable enthusiasts like you in the E9X M3 platform, I've been getting a little concerned over the last couple of days.
I'm just asking because I've seen a few people talking about e85 tunes and wanted to know if more boost would even be safe but I didn't think so
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      09-10-2013, 02:41 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilia@IND View Post
I agree with Kawasaki above, E85 is not a necessary addition to the S65 in stock form.

Ultimately any engine converting to E85 from a standard gasoline fuel system needs a tremendous increase in fuel delivery. The M3's original fuel pump does not have miles of reserve when used with a high output supercharger kit, and as Roman said will not have enough capacity to provide adequate fuel for an E85 setup.
Don't you think a car with a vt3 fuel system a vt2-650 kit and as e85 tune just for more octane would be ok?
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      09-10-2013, 02:44 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
It will make more power if you are tuned for it but then you are stuck running it and you are doing more damage than not running it IMHO. Likewise if you leave everything else the same it will make less power than gasoline.
Furthermore E85 fuel is absolute junk, it sucks up water so fast it is crazy, it will ruin the fuel system if run for extended periods of time without cycling new fuel through the tank all the time. The only reason for running it is so you can lean on the motor more, but it is already maxed out so there is no point. If the block could handle 800hp then run it, lay the timing to it and lean it out. That is not possible though unless you spend some massive money on motor work.
You could always have 2 tunes

I've seen injectors in cars after 1 year of e85 and if they had this black gunk all over them I would never run it all the time
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      09-10-2013, 07:10 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh View Post
You could always have 2 tunes

I've seen injectors in cars after 1 year of e85 and if they had this black gunk all over them I would never run it all the time
2 tunes would be ok but to me that would just be a PITA, each time you flash back the car need a few days to adapt so changing twice a year is ok but changing every couple weeks or so is just too much hassle
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      09-12-2013, 11:39 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh View Post
I'm just asking because I've seen a few people talking about e85 tunes and wanted to know if more boost would even be safe but I didn't think so
My comment was not directed toward you! I think this thread is a good one.

I think with a VT3 fuel system on a stock motor you would good fuel wise, but I don't think the stock internals will last long with over 600whp.
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      09-13-2013, 07:14 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
My comment was not directed toward you! I think this thread is a good one.

I think with a VT3 fuel system on a stock motor you would good fuel wise, but I don't think the stock internals will last long with over 600whp.
Haha! How much power do you think there is to be made by just going full e85 and running the same boost?

I know on turbo cars they can get around 30-40hp but do not know of It would be the same on an m3
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