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      12-15-2012, 10:46 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
The .223 is actually a supersonic round with most versions having over 3000ft/sec muzzle velocity. Despite it's small size it does an incredible amount of damage. But yeah, because the pic he posted looks like all the fully automatic weapons we see in the movies people assume it's the same thing. He could have used several other semi-auto hunting rifles to do the same damage or more.
Well almost every rifle cartridge has a supersonic MV. Rifle Ballistics

But I think we are missing the point here that the victims were children, not adults wearing bullet proof vests..so this argument of handguns vs rifle seems moot. If anything I believe hand guns are more deadly because they are easy to conceal
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      12-15-2012, 10:51 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Pontrelli View Post
Banning guns will do NOTHING to prevent sociopaths from unleashing havoc..so keep your anti-gun rhoteric confined to Canada where it belongs
Spoken like a true Texan. Ok buddy. Have fun with all your gun related violence.

We're not "anti-gun". But I don't expect you to know that. You're American...so I don't expect you to know much about anything outside of America, after all, that's the whole world isn't it - or everything that matters?

I think all factors need to be considered as well, not as easy as just banning guns - for the record, guns are certainly not banned here. But there is an interesting correlation between our system and the number of shootings at a school, and the American system and their number of shootings at a school. On the other hand, America has a lot more people, and thus a higher percentage of the "crazies"...which also needs to be considered.

My heart goes out to all those affected by this tragedy - its terrible, its senseless, and action needs to be taken to start to prevent these type of incidents.
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      12-15-2012, 10:57 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by samchoi604 View Post
Schools can barely afford staffing teachers. Do you know the cost of putting armed guards at every school or public facility in the country? Also, you can't just have one guard standing at the front door, the psycho can easily blow the guard's brains out first before continuing on with his rampage.

Gun nuts always propose unrealistic solutions: "Fix the mental illness in society!" Gosh really? Finding these people is like needle in a haystack. Without actually committing crimes the police can't do jack shit to them. And these psychos aren't going to turn themselves in for mental check up either.

The only feasible solution is putting a ban on this crap.
Having one armed guard is typically sufficient for bank security, and I think the same could apply to schools, the money could be allocated from some of the government fat in other budgets. It would cost millions is government man hours to change the current gun legislation anyway, why not just put that money towards improving security instead.

You foreigners do not understand the importance of gun rights in this country it was the basis of our ability to fight for our freedom in the revolutionary war, and it is a tradition and a right that we cherish to this day, the right to arm and protect ourselves, we should't have to give this up, because of the wackos who seek harm.
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      12-15-2012, 11:05 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foodle View Post
1) Who said anything about just point blank

2) Even at close range, the type of weapon, caliber of bullet, and type of bullet make a huge difference. You're telling me that getting shot by a .22 pistol round is the same as getting hit by a .50 rifle round? Many people have survived getting shot by pistol rounds, even in the head or multiple shots (ask Gabby Giffords or 50 Cent). Take a .50 rifle round anywhere but an extremity and you're likely going to the morgue. Even a rifle round of a similar caliber (e.g., .223 like in this case) will cause much more damage than a pistol.
I don't care what size caliber was used, shooting a 6 year old child will have devastating effects. Gabby Giffords and 50 Cent were full grown adults when they were shot. The shooter's "targets" were no more than 10 yards away considering he was shooting inside a classroom. Point blank or 10 yards away, any gun will be lethal to a child.
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      12-15-2012, 11:07 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontrelli View Post
Well almost every rifle cartridge has a supersonic MV. Rifle Ballistics

But I think we are missing the point here that the victims were children, not adults wearing bullet proof vests..so this argument of handguns vs rifle seems moot. If anything I believe hand guns are more deadly because they are easy to conceal
Bingo.
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      12-15-2012, 11:08 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontrelli View Post
Well almost every rifle cartridge has a supersonic MV. Rifle Ballistics

But I think we are missing the point here that the victims were children, not adults wearing bullet proof vests..so this argument of handguns vs rifle seems moot. If anything I believe hand guns are more deadly because they are easy to conceal
Yes, but it seemed that you were comparing this round to pistol rounds which are not supersonic. No worries.

When talking about damage a rifle round always wins. But when talking about danger, your right about the pistol.
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      12-15-2012, 11:20 PM   #95
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The incident occurred about 25 miles from where I work. Newtown is one of the more affluent towns in the state. Families move there to settle down and put their kids in the excellent school system. Things like this don't usually occur there.

The information is still sketchy coming in, but I heard the killer tried to purchase a gun about one week earlier but he ran into some hurdles. So that means this whole thing was premeditated for quite some time. He wasn't sick. He was the devil in disguise. He was 100% pure evil. I hope he rots in hell, where he belongs.

By the way, some of you we're talking about injuries. The state examiner says each victim received more than one bullet to the body. He also said they probably didn't suffer very long. I think that paints a picture right there. By the way, there were only three people hospitalized. That jerk hit his mark every time. I heard his mom(the one he killed) had often taken him along to target practice, so he was not new to firearms.

Last edited by JoeyO; 12-15-2012 at 11:27 PM.
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      12-15-2012, 11:33 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvergray545 View Post
I don't care what size caliber was used, shooting a 6 year old child will have devastating effects. Gabby Giffords and 50 Cent were full grown adults when they were shot. The shooter's "targets" were no more than 10 yards away considering he was shooting inside a classroom. Point blank or 10 yards away, any gun will be lethal to a child.
There are so many variables in this situation I don't know how you can make this claim. Maybe you should put a few more conditions on your BS statement

As a clear counter example, 10 children in the Dunblane massacre (extremely similar incident in the UK) were shot by a pistol and wounded but not killed. But maybe they weren't exactly 10 yards away or less.
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      12-15-2012, 11:34 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by samchoi604 View Post
Schools can barely afford staffing teachers. Do you know the cost of putting armed guards at every school or public facility in the country?
so losing 20 kids in less than 15 minutes isn't worth the cost !?!?

that funding shouldn't come from schools, it should come from somewhere else.....
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      12-15-2012, 11:37 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by JoeyO View Post
his mom(the one he killed) had often taken him along to target practice, so he was not new to firearms.
So ironic.

Such a tragedy, innocent children killed. Countless more traumatized. Teachers lost their lives. All around Christmas time.

I hope all those involved or affected will eventually recover in some way and manage to move past all this.
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      12-15-2012, 11:38 PM   #99
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He wasn't sick. He was the devil in disguise. He was 100% pure evil. I hope he rots in hell, where he belongs.
Sorry, but blaming "the devil" or "evil" for this is a cheap cop out. He was a person. A very disturbed person that decided to do this terrible thing. But to say that there was some kind of metaphysical force that made him different from other people is simply unrealistic. Many many people have done very evil things in past (e.g., genocide all across the world). Under the right circumstances ordinary people can do evil things too. The capacity to do "evil" acts is a part of human nature. Some people with mental problems may be more prone to do them, but don't delude yourself, that your neighbor isn't capable of doing something evil.
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      12-15-2012, 11:39 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samchoi604 View Post
Schools can barely afford staffing teachers. Do you know the cost of putting armed guards at every school or public facility in the country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Litos View Post
so losing 20 kids in less than 15 minutes isn't worth the cost !?!?

that funding shouldn't come from schools, it should come from somewhere else.....
+1

If we can spend billions on our miltary to protect us abroad..we can spend any amount to protect our children in their schools.
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      12-15-2012, 11:40 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyO View Post
That jerk hit his mark every time. I heard his mom(the one he killed) had often taken him along to target practice, so he was not new to firearms.
of course he hit every target - they described the killings as up close shots - he wasn't sniping kids from 50 yards.

without security at the school he was basically able to walk up to anyone in the school and dispose of them......
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      12-15-2012, 11:43 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Pontrelli View Post
+1

If we can spend billions on our miltary to protect us abroad..we can spend any amount to protect our children in their schools.
here's how fucked up it is:

here in the united states, we spend money to protect our money at banks - money that can be replaced.

...but we can't spend money to protect our children from being murdered in cold blood !??!
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      12-16-2012, 12:52 AM   #103
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Prayers go out to all the victims' families. Really do not know what kind of sick, twisted individual does this. Unlike most people I do not see a clear solution. I think a full ban of guns leaves all non-criminals at risk. A lot of people want to ban "scary guns". However, the problem lies with the people who posses the guns. We need a better system for selling guns. In addition the argument that crazy people will find a way to kill without guns has its flaws as well. A knife (or a similar weapon) can kill a person, but a gun can kill multiple people very fast. I'm not trying to come off pro or anti gun so hopefully I don't upset anyone...
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      12-16-2012, 01:43 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
Totally agree! We are talking about the most important thing in the world - our kids.
This likely won't be well received but this mindset is partly responsible for these kids growing up to be so disturbed.

For many, their kids are the most important thing in their life. More important than their spouse and even their own lives. They do everything in their power to make sure their kids don't get hurt. To make sure they are treated fairly. They make sure they have the best of everything. The most trendy clothes, the latest electronics, the best games and smartphones by age 10. They fight their battles, blame others for their disobedience and chastise anyone who has a cross thing to say about their child.

Then the child goes off to college and find life to be more difficult with out their parents protection and assistance. They find out that life isn't fair and typically other students and professors teach them this lesson. Then they get a job and find out just how unfair life can be.....

Some adjust, some turn to drugs, some turn to alcohol. Some get depressed and are inconsolable. Some of those begin wishing bad on those around them while others wish for a position of power over those, who in their mind, have created the unfair situation they are in. After all their parents always told them it was someone else's fault. And as said before, some get to a point where they want to see the world burn, just before they exit it.

I'm not saying our children aren't valuable and worth of protection. They most certainly are our future and deserve protection. But what some many parents do in the name of protection is actually a disservice. People from my generation and earlier knew from an early age that life wasn't fair. Children of today find this out at a much later age when their lives are so much more complicated. This late realization destroys their expectations and it seems that some can't handle that. Most that can't handle it only fire one shot to end it. For a small percentage of others, they don't want to go alone.
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      12-16-2012, 02:04 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Litos View Post
here's how fucked up it is:

here in the united states, we spend money to protect our money at banks - money that can be replaced.

...but we can't spend money to protect our children from being murdered in cold blood !??!
the ugly truth: some people are a net negative to society. picture someone who's on welfare, doesn't do shit for anyone. how much is that worth?

and in some places, people will kill you for trying to steal from them...
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      12-16-2012, 02:05 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Bingobimmer View Post
Prayers go out to all the victims' families. Really do not know what kind of sick, twisted individual does this. Unlike most people I do not see a clear solution. I think a full ban of guns leaves all non-criminals at risk. A lot of people want to ban "scary guns". However, the problem lies with the people who posses the guns. We need a better system for selling guns. In addition the argument that crazy people will find a way to kill without guns has its flaws as well. A knife (or a similar weapon) can kill a person, but a gun can kill multiple people very fast. I'm not trying to come off pro or anti gun so hopefully I don't upset anyone...
i like non-lethal guns: rubber bullets, taser shotguns etc. they should be as easy to buy as a baseball bat.
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      12-16-2012, 02:20 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
This likely won't be well received but this mindset is partly responsible for these kids growing up to be so disturbed.

For many, their kids are the most important thing in their life. More important than their spouse and even their own lives. They do everything in their power to make sure their kids don't get hurt. To make sure they are treated fairly. They make sure they have the best of everything. The most trendy clothes, the latest electronics, the best games and smartphones by age 10. They fight their battles, blame others for their disobedience and chastise anyone who has a cross thing to say about their child.

Then the child goes off to college and find life to be more difficult with out their parents protection and assistance. They find out that life isn't fair and typically other students and professors teach them this lesson. Then they get a job and find out just how unfair life can be.....

Some adjust, some turn to drugs, some turn to alcohol. Some get depressed and are inconsolable. Some of those begin wishing bad on those around them while others wish for a position of power over those, who in their mind, have created the unfair situation they are in. After all their parents always told them it was someone else's fault. And as said before, some get to a point where they want to see the world burn, just before they exit it.

I'm not saying our children aren't valuable and worth of protection. They most certainly are our future and deserve protection. But what some many parents do in the name of protection is actually a disservice. People from my generation and earlier knew from an early age that life wasn't fair. Children of today find this out at a much later age when their lives are so much more complicated. This late realization destroys their expectations and it seems that some can't handle that. Most that can't handle it only fire one shot to end it. For a small percentage of others, they don't want to go alone.
While your comment might make sense in a different context (e.g. parents' coddling spoiled brats), it makes absolutely no sense in this context (murderous killer amongst innocent, defenseless children). Either you're arguing for the sake of arguing or you're completely disassociated from the reality of the issue at hand.
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      12-16-2012, 02:37 AM   #108
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should forks be banned to because they aid in making people obese?

if someone is set on killing people for whatever reason they will find a way to do it. Cavemen used to kill huge animals with sharpened sticks. What difference would a mental health check do? ok maybe John Doe cant buy the gun but Jane can buy it for him. Or John can steal it from someone he knows or break into a house he knows has guns. Also what would an armed school security guard do? by the time the guard took his gun out anyone that already has their gun out, cocked, and ready will pick him off in a second. The other suggestion is armed teachers... have you seen elementary school teachers? You think Little Mrs. Whatever is going to pull a glock out from under her desk and start accurately shooting at a gunman who has nothing to lose? This also puts a scared teacher who most likely cant handle a gun not having a shootout in a classroom still full of kids. Implementing armed teachers also now means that anyone planning on doing something like this now knows that they have to take out the teacher first.

Banning guns would be completely useless as well as a constitutional violation. If guns were all of a sudden banned, there still hundreds of thousands of guns out there anyway. A gun can also be made fairly easily by any good machinist. Ive seen machinists build their own 50 cal snipper riffles.
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      12-16-2012, 02:39 AM   #109
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like others have said, if a gun wasnt available he could have easily made napalm at home or some other incendiary weapon and dont equal damage
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      12-16-2012, 02:43 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
You know exactly what I meant... I was talking about the safety of our children, and this should be our highest priority. Your rant about parenting has nothing to do with it. I find it appalling that you decide to find a very benign quote and argue about it for the sake of arguing; on a thread like this. Thanks for reminding me why I don't post in the off-topic section that often. I'm a parent of a little girl, and yes, this girl is the most important thing to me.

I'm out.
My apologies for offending you. My post wasn't directed at you personally. I found myself thinking what what could possibly cause that kid to do such a horrible thing. Going back to the Aurora kid and the fact that most of these mass killings involve mentally unstable college age kids brought me to these thoughts. Your post was an innocent comment from a loving parent. I didn't intend to make it out to be anything more and didn't do a good enough job separating the two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
While your comment might make sense in a different context (e.g. parents' coddling spoiled brats), it makes absolutely no sense in this context (murderous killer amongst innocent, defenseless children). Either you're arguing for the sake of arguing or you're completely disassociated from the reality of the issue at hand.
I believe this thread is about a deeply disturbed kid who chose to murder several innocent people, mostly children. Have i been mistaken? What i made is a general statement that could very well apply to the kid who took it upon himself to kill other innocent kids. It seems to me that it fits squarely in this thread. Prior to Friday, the perpetrator was also somebody's kid. He wasn't a murderous killer until Friday. There is no argument in my comment. It's a theory that could be at the root of these mass shootings.

I know it's a trying time and emotions are still running high, so i can see how you guys could misconstrue my comments.
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