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      10-10-2013, 02:42 PM   #1
lutfy
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NASA TTB Setup

Peeps,

The more time I spend here the more I end up skull f***ing imaging mods/parts etc. I have been there and done that and don’t have motivation, time, energy to do it all again. Part of the reason I got this car was to not have a truck/trailer/broken race car.

So… since I instruct with NASA, it would be not only be fun to do TTB but also allowing me to get the most out of myself (competition is good) and use my equipment to the fullest (something I will look forward to with much anticipation).

My car is an E90 with ALL OPTIONS DCT so a heavy pig (part of the reason I got it was because I’d wake up and say “this car is already a handicap so why mod it?”)

My equipment:

1) PFC rotors (no points, will run these next year)
2) PF08 (again no points)
3) 18X10 ET25 Enkei wheels.

Anyone out there in TTB, what are you running for tires/size/other limited mods?

Thanks,

Lutfy
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      10-10-2013, 03:43 PM   #2
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This is an interesting dilemma that I also found myself in as I recently purchased an E92 with the vision to create another race car, but over time, done in phases (to learn about the car and to spread the cost out over time). So the first phase for me was to build a street driveable track car.

The problem with the E9x M3 is that its base class is TTB** with 3,625 lbs minimum base weight. The ** means you already have 14 points and 19 points is the limit to stay in TTB. So you have 5 points to work with.

I quickly gave up on TTB when I realized that 5 points isn't even enough to do street driveable R comp tires (like NT01s). Jumping up to the next class puts you in TT3, which is absurd because its a power to weight class with 9:1 base, which is substantially nuttier than the 11:1 ratio of GTS3 race class! I gave up on TTB, because it didn't give me the chance to build the street driveable track car setup the way that I wanted. I ran the last glen event in TT3, but was sofa king far from being competitive it was painful. I guess it was more about lining up grid by lap time to allow me to get the open track I needed to benchmark myself and this car's laptime.

That said, if you choose to remain in TTB, you have 5 points to work with.

I would do 2 things with those 5 points:

#1: Tires
It looks like your best tire choice within that point limit is a sticky street tire (non r comp), like Dunlop Direzzas or Hankook RS3s. Those are +2 points. Also remember that if your widest tire is 275, that's 10mm over the 265 TTB base, so that will cost you another +1 point.

#2 (option A): Weight Reduction
20 lbs is +2 points. Therefore, your goal is to get your car to weigh 3,605 lbs with you in it and almost no gas. This is definitely doable. My e92 currently weighs 3,600 lbs with 1/2 tank of gas and me in it. That's with just the rear seat and trunk lining removed (easy to do, just a few bolts and clips and can go back in in 20 minutes). Find some scales and do the math. Pull stuff out until you get near the limit (remember, scales tend to vary, so be sure to leave a little extra margin).

#2 (option B): MAKE IT LOUD
If you don't want to give up luxury and utility that comes along with weight reduction or you don't want to be bothered removing all that crap before a track event and reinstalling it after... Then I would go for a nice loud exhaust that will make you smile and disrupt society with that V8 symphony. Exhaust is +2 points as long as you leave the cats in.

Just some suggestions. I hope this helps.

Last edited by Stee; 10-11-2013 at 02:09 PM.
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      10-10-2013, 07:03 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stee View Post

That said, if you choose to remain in TTB, you have 5 points to work with.

I would do 2 things with those 5 points:

#1: Tires
It looks like you best tire choice within that point limit is a sticky street tire (non r comp), like Dunlop Direzzas or Hankook RS3s. Those are +2 points. Also remember that if your widest tire is 275, that's 10mm over the 265 TTB base, so that will cost you another +1 point.

#2 (option A): Weight Reduction
20 lbs is +2 points. Therefore, your goal is to get your car to weigh 3,605 lbs with you in it and almost no gas. This is definitely doable. My e92 currently weighs 3,600 lbs with 1/2 tank of gas and me in it. That's with just the rear seat and trunk lining removed (easy to do, just a few bolts and clips and can go back in in 20 minutes). Find some scales and do the math. Pull stuff out until you get near the limit (remember, scales tend to vary, so be sure to leave a little extra margin).

#2 (option B): MAKE IT LOUD
If you don't want to give up luxury and utility that comes along with weight reduction or you don't want to be bothered removing all that crap before a track event and reinstalling it after... Then I would go for a nice loud exhaust that will make you smile and disrupt society with that V8 symphony. Exhaust is +2 points as long as you leave the cats in.

Just some suggestions. I hope this helps.
Stee,

You are the man! I had one of those last nights where I was dreaming of the exhaust. It always start from there and my cars end up being caged up. I have done it multiple times to keep telling myself ONE AND HALF more year before CPO wears out and you get a Euro delivery on the new M3.

I will be at a NASA event at VIR this weekend so will weigh in the car for baseline then on Sunday weigh in again with the items removed as suggested.

I think I am going to go with the tire option. 275 and sticky street. I really don't care for the lap times to post online nor win any trophies. My goal is to have an auto which I can PUSH to the limit paying extra attention to data aq. From time to time, I'll let some pro/super amateurs drive it up and take data. Its more about driver development here and I need competition/competitive environment to do this vs HPDE 4.

Having a set of street tires slapped on at all point in time is also a relief as I hate carrying all the garbage (tools, wheels, jack etc.) to the track. Now I arrive and drive which to me is a relief. For loudness, I intend to leave PF08s on during the season

Do you think I can benefit from say a set of say Dinan or Eibach springs on this car with stock EDC (since you know more about these now than I do)? Those are also 2 points.

You were pretty fast at the Glen

Cheers,

Lutfy
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      10-10-2013, 07:12 PM   #4
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Per the rulebook it also states under D: Drivetrain,

Added paddle/electronic shift +3

So will my DCT automatically result in +3 vs a manual car?
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      10-10-2013, 08:56 PM   #5
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Yeah, E9X M3s are heavily penalized. Looking at some of the Texas NASA TTB times...if you could put on Hoosiers or even NT01s in 275s square a really good driver would be pretty competitive.

So you can be competitive. Win? That would be pretty tough.
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      10-10-2013, 09:53 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lutfy View Post
Per the rulebook it also states under D: Drivetrain,

Added paddle/electronic shift +3

So will my DCT automatically result in +3 vs a manual car?

DCT actually incurs a 6 pt penalty as it also alters gear ratios (D.2).

So you'd be in TT3 at a minimum.
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      10-10-2013, 10:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
DCT actually incurs a 6 pt penalty as it also alters gear ratios (D.2).

So you'd be in TT3 at a minimum.
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      10-11-2013, 10:15 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lutfy View Post
Stee,

You are the man! I had one of those last nights where I was dreaming of the exhaust. It always start from there and my cars end up being caged up. I have done it multiple times to keep telling myself ONE AND HALF more year before CPO wears out and you get a Euro delivery on the new M3.

I will be at a NASA event at VIR this weekend so will weigh in the car for baseline then on Sunday weigh in again with the items removed as suggested.

I think I am going to go with the tire option. 275 and sticky street. I really don't care for the lap times to post online nor win any trophies. My goal is to have an auto which I can PUSH to the limit paying extra attention to data aq. From time to time, I'll let some pro/super amateurs drive it up and take data. Its more about driver development here and I need competition/competitive environment to do this vs HPDE 4.

Having a set of street tires slapped on at all point in time is also a relief as I hate carrying all the garbage (tools, wheels, jack etc.) to the track. Now I arrive and drive which to me is a relief. For loudness, I intend to leave PF08s on during the season

Do you think I can benefit from say a set of say Dinan or Eibach springs on this car with stock EDC (since you know more about these now than I do)? Those are also 2 points.

You were pretty fast at the Glen

Cheers,

Lutfy
Thanks.

Trust me, I understand the idea of going back to simplicity more than you can imagine! Keep it simple and go rip it!

I don't have any direct experience with just lowering springs with EDC, so I'm not sure of the performance advantage, if any.

Another idea in addition to TT for good track time are open track days, like Group 52. This gives you more track time than you can use in a much more relaxed open schedule. Open track days are also great opportunities to work with professional instructors and do data analysis as you suggested.

Enjoy the NASA event at VIR. I'll be watching it on race monitor.
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      10-11-2013, 10:17 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
DCT actually incurs a 6 pt penalty as it also alters gear ratios (D.2).

So you'd be in TT3 at a minimum.
Oops, I missed that. DCT gets assessed those points even though its from the factory and not an add on modification?

Wow, that sucks then. TT3 is brutal. Unfortunately these cars would have to go through extensive transformations to be really competitive in TT3.
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      10-11-2013, 10:23 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Yeah, E9X M3s are heavily penalized. Looking at some of the Texas NASA TTB times...if you could put on Hoosiers or even NT01s in 275s square a really good driver would be pretty competitive.

So you can be competitive. Win? That would be pretty tough.
Unfortunately I think the point assessment for r comps range from 7 (for NT-01) to 13 (for Hoosier A6), which are above the 5 point limit to stay in TTB.
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      10-11-2013, 04:58 PM   #11
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Could run tiny wheel/tires?
Base = +14
dct = +3
hoosier R6 = +10
-40mm tires = -10
sway bars +2

Fat girl on spaghettios
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      10-11-2013, 05:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenshin223 View Post
Could run tiny wheel/tires?
Base = +14
dct = +3
hoosier R6 = +10
-40mm tires = -10
sway bars +2

Fat girl on spaghettios
Brilliant. I would bet this is the fastest setup.

Fat girl on speghettios had me :

Last edited by Stee; 10-11-2013 at 05:29 PM.
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      10-11-2013, 05:28 PM   #13
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Pro driver Leh Keen had a video up of a 2:08 lap at VIR on PS2 tires in his e9x m3. Can't find the vid but here is his post on the Lap time thread:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...56&postcount=5

Something to compare to on your journey to VIR. Supposedly Watkins Glen and VIR will have very similar lap times. I guess if your that good of a driver, its realistic to be competitive with a e9x m3 w/ street tires in TTB, but you probably wouldn't be meddling with club racing/TT at that point. Just more confirmation I'm slow.
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      10-11-2013, 06:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenshin223
Could run tiny wheel/tires?
Base = +14
dct = +3
hoosier R6 = +10
-40mm tires = -10
sway bars +2

Fat girl on spaghettios
Lol
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      10-11-2013, 07:57 PM   #15
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I don't see how the e9x M3 would ever be competitive in TTB.

My s2000 runs 1:19 in TTC trim at my local track. I'm sure I can run a 1:18 in TTB trim.

My e92 100% stock except NT01's ran high a 22. As noted the NT01's bump the car out of TTB.
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      10-11-2013, 10:36 PM   #16
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You should give up on TTB and go straight to TT3 or like a friend of mine TT2
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      10-14-2013, 10:06 AM   #17
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It rained pretty much the entire time. Was running HPDE 4. It was kinda drying out except for the oak tree with standing water and some other portion of the track so times were varying. Nothing to rave about.

Not going to turn this into a competitive TT3 car. Decided to keep it as is. On scale it put down 3685lbs with 1/2 tank of gas without driver. Lighter 18 wheels but everything else in there.

Not worth modding. Its still plenty quick, wanted to be competitive that's all.

Stee, since your car is hooking up really well and you are running 275 square, mind sharing alignment specs? I have a hard time putting all the power down and am modulating a lot. -2.5 front, -1.8 rear. Do I need more at the back? Tire wearing well both ends.

Cheers,

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      10-14-2013, 12:51 PM   #18
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TT3 shouldn't really be that crazy, right?

e90 = +0.4
buy a spare trunk and add wing for track days = -0.5
DCT = -0.2
run slicks: -0.75, otherwise leave it
get weight to 3600-3649 = +0.4

That puts you at 8.9 to 9.65. At 3600 lbs, that's 373 to 404 (depending on slicks). You have e90 so easy to transport wheels with track-only tires. You still have some easy weight loss possible, if desired (e.g., replacing front seats, removing rear seats, etc.). That power range is doable with a tune and basic bolt-ons.

Getting down to 3600 w/ driver would be the hardest part (depending on how much you weigh). But even at 3700 lbs you're looking at 389 whp with slicks which isn't unreasonable.

And always keeping in mind that you don't have to be RIGHT at the bleeding edge to be competitive locally.
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      10-14-2013, 02:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhouck View Post
TT3 shouldn't really be that crazy, right?

e90 = +0.4
buy a spare trunk and add wing for track days = -0.5
DCT = -0.2
run slicks: -0.75, otherwise leave it
get weight to 3600-3649 = +0.4

That puts you at 8.9 to 9.65. At 3600 lbs, that's 373 to 404 (depending on slicks). You have e90 so easy to transport wheels with track-only tires. You still have some easy weight loss possible, if desired (e.g., replacing front seats, removing rear seats, etc.). That power range is doable with a tune and basic bolt-ons.

Getting down to 3600 w/ driver would be the hardest part (depending on how much you weigh). But even at 3700 lbs you're looking at 389 whp with slicks which isn't unreasonable.

And always keeping in mind that you don't have to be RIGHT at the bleeding edge to be competitive locally.
Hi Rhouck,

But this beats the purpose of getting rid of the race car in the first place along with the infrastructure. I was hoping to get my spirit charged with some competition but this wont happen unless you really shell out some $$ on this car. I live in DC (which is the capitol of crappies roads in the nation too) so running slicks will require high spring rates and designer shocks which is not an option.

I guess you all pretty much answered my question. I'll do some track days here and there and rent rides from time to time in Enduros to get some kick as well.

Instead of modding cars (it really gives me in a mental mast**bation mode and that's all I tinker on then), I intend to pick up the new(er) M3 to go fast(er).

No TTB for this car.

Thanks peeps.

Lutfy
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