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      12-21-2011, 12:01 PM   #1
Tarmac_E46_M3
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Anyone heard of/done an E85 conversion on a N/A engine?

Ok, so this is just a series of post that are from another forum. Mostly mine... we were trouble shooting on how we can create a kit so we can run E85 on a N/A E46 M3 engine.

Here we go...
1st Post:
What I've seen time and time again being better than not only 91 to 93 oct with water/meth AND race fuel... is E85. Proven gains on a lot of vehicles. I wonder if anyone has converted their fuel system to accept E85 and then tune it appropriately to run well.

E85 has all the cooling/power adding properties that the water/meth does... just a lot lot better. I just think, in general, running E85 pros outweigh any possible cons; it's just better for the engine.

Or we could even run an E85 map with a 91 oct map as a back up; add some sort of switch via a stock switch/button or, say you have an Evolve-R, just reflash it to run the map you want.

Anyone know of anyone that has run E85 on a N/A engine? if the gains were only 5-10 WHP... I'd do it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem solving:
The Ford Raptor can be ran with E85, it's tuned from the factory to be able to do so.

Most people do it with FI, since you see the most gains there. My idea is, if it can be done, tuned properly, and be a better fuel for my engine as well as potentially adding power, then why not try it?

Other than the tune, I don't see this costing an insane amount of money. We would need:
- Bigger injectors
- Higher flowing fuel pump (not sure what stock flows)
- Ensure the fuel lines are hard lines, if so that makes it easier
- Fill with E85
- Tune

And continuing with it...:
Found this online: http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Myths

A little more problem solving:
I/We need at least these basic questions answered...

How much does the stock inj's flow?
How much do we need the inj's to flow?
How much does the stock fuel pump flow?
How much do we need it to flow?
Where can get long lasting fuel lines? For a reasonable price
Who will help us with tuning E85 for the M3?

Example I post about another N/A engine showing gains with E85:
I'll check them out right now, probably email them too.

I believe you that he is good... but damn, that is an insane price. i would definitely like to know what gains could be had. In the turbos (STI wise) not only is E85 know for the power increase, but the huge jump in TQ as well. It would be interesting what E85 does to the N/A engine... I don't even know how to guess how much more power it would produce.

here is a part of a thread I found via google. I believe it's a Vette... or something close to it.

Dyno run:
Before E85 conversion/dyno tune: (dyno tuned on 91 octane)
433RWHP @ 5900RPM
405RWTQ @ 3200RPM (pretty much a flat line after 2200 rpm)
max timing advance was 8deg

After E85 conversion (Dyno Tune on E85)
486RWHP @ 5800RPM
492RWTQ @ 3000RPM (pretty much a flat line after 2300 rpm)
max timing advance was 36deg

Mods:
Big Inch Small Block, 1.72:1 shaft mnt RR, 12.8:1 CR, CAI, 4" Y-Pipe & CatBack, Headers, P&P heads (2.08/1.70 - I:304cfm@.580 / E:235cfm@.610), 3.73 gears, 4L65/3200Stall, 38# SVO Inj, BG Fuel Pump, E85 Conversion

Site: http://www.e85performance.net/forums...read.php?t=189

Then I decided to contact someone with some experience in the matter, ProEFI. I emailed them last night and he got back to me first thing this morning. Here is the break down of our emails this morning:
A little update: Emailing back and forth with ProEFI this morning and shed a bit of light that is very much possible...

I asked what kind of gains we can see as well as what would we need to run this setup, here is his message:
"It's hard to say what the gains would be, I would say 15 to 20% or so. You would need a complete Pro128 system with flex fuel sensor and fittings, your stock pump would be borderline for an N/A application, you might start with the stock pump and see what you need from there. Your injectors might also be o.k....would be close, but they might work." He's referring to this kit: http://www.proefi.com/Pro_128_ECU.html

I asked about what i would need to do about a tune, he said:
"I can supply a calibration that will get you VERY close"

This message I asked about total price:
"With the ecu, harness, and all the sensors and fittings, a little under $4k."

I asked for the typical gains in a turbo application to compare to the gains in N/A form:
"Turbo gains are around 12 to 15% typically."

I asked what we would need to do for tuning when we want to add other parts (headers, intake, exhaust, etc):
"Tuning is pretty straight forward for those type changes...it would be some quick fuel map adjustments."

So, it looks like ProEFI has all the ends covered as far as the E85 conversion goes. If the stock fuel pump and injectors are good... then we would literally just need their kit, basically Plug and play.

Now, that a total of just under 4k... with everything we need. But if the 15-20% increase in power is right... I'd do this in a heart beat. That would put a stock N/A engine, with 270 WHP at 310 WHP (with a 15% increase in power)... with only converting to E85. That's 40 WHP over stock!

4k in other performance parts probably wouldn't get you that close. And if it did... well, this step would be most ideal, for me, if I had a E85 accessible (which I do). Easy 40 WHP without changing out any major engine parts and then still WHP to gain when we do slap on an exhaust, intake, headers... or whatever.

Anyways... that's just my way of justifying it for me, haha.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

And that's where we are at. Hopefully I can save some money (roughly 4500, in case I don't have the tool needed to install everything), be able to purchase by mid Jan, and then run this "hybrid" E85 kit in my car. If the gains are what they say, i don't think I will be disappointed; neither will anyone else who decides to jump on this too.
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      12-21-2011, 12:04 PM   #2
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I didn't read the whole thing cause unless you're in a different part of the country where E85 is easier to get, there's virtually no reason to attempt this.
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      12-21-2011, 12:18 PM   #3
Tarmac_E46_M3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE TECH View Post
I didn't read the whole thing cause unless you're in a different part of the country where E85 is easier to get, there's virtually no reason to attempt this.
Regardless, I'm getting the idea out there. It's has been done in a ton of turbo applications... I don't see why spreading into the N/A side of the spectrum is frowned upon by you. No need to be negative, my friend.

As I said in my other threads:
"I think for this thread, we need some constructive info. Cool, call BS on someone, but have some good info to back it up or help to get this E85 conversion going..."

The areas I got to all have E85 capabilities. Just because you are against it, doesn't mean the rest of the M3 community, the country or the world... is against it.
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      12-21-2011, 12:33 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmac_E46_M3 View Post
Regardless, I'm getting the idea out there. It's has been done in a ton of turbo applications... I don't see why spreading into the N/A side of the spectrum is frowned upon by you. No need to be negative, my friend.

As I said in my other threads:
"I think for this thread, we need some constructive info. Cool, call BS on someone, but have some good info to back it up or help to get this E85 conversion going..."

The areas I got to all have E85 capabilities. Just because you are against it, doesn't mean the rest of the M3 community, the country or the world... is against it.
You are correct. I have nothing against doing it, just that here in CA you would definitely have to go out of your way to find an E85 station which makes this more trouble that it would be worth on a daily basis usage. I would think you would be better off doing a water/meth setup.
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      12-21-2011, 12:58 PM   #5
Tarmac_E46_M3
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I get what you're saying, I'm just putting the idea out there. I have a station near where I work, one on the way to my base and one a mile away from where I live.

So it would work for me and,maybe a lot others as well. This isn't a kit normally produced for M3s, I want to open that door.
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      05-30-2012, 12:16 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmac_E46_M3 View Post
Ok, so this is just a series of post that are from another forum. Mostly mine... we were trouble shooting on how we can create a kit so we can run E85 on a N/A E46 M3 engine.

Here we go...
1st Post:
What I've seen time and time again being better than not only 91 to 93 oct with water/meth AND race fuel... is E85. Proven gains on a lot of vehicles. I wonder if anyone has converted their fuel system to accept E85 and then tune it appropriately to run well.

E85 has all the cooling/power adding properties that the water/meth does... just a lot lot better. I just think, in general, running E85 pros outweigh any possible cons; it's just better for the engine.

Or we could even run an E85 map with a 91 oct map as a back up; add some sort of switch via a stock switch/button or, say you have an Evolve-R, just reflash it to run the map you want.

Anyone know of anyone that has run E85 on a N/A engine? if the gains were only 5-10 WHP... I'd do it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem solving:
The Ford Raptor can be ran with E85, it's tuned from the factory to be able to do so.

Most people do it with FI......
Hi!

Greetings from Finland, I was considering the e85 conversion to my e46 m3 allso.
What is your status with the conversion?

I called today some workshop and they said that its only 495 for the box that uprages your car totally to FlexFuel and to be run with e85...

http://translate.google.com/translat...ex.php&act=url
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      06-29-2012, 08:31 AM   #7
Tarmac_E46_M3
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which shop did you talk to?

you'll need a tune/ecu that can control all that, since the stock one wasn't made that way.
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      11-21-2012, 05:50 PM   #8
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E85 Fuel for E46 M3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmac_E46_M3 View Post
Ok, so this is just a series of post that are from another forum. Mostly mine... we were trouble shooting on how we can create a kit so we can run E85 on a N/A E46 M3 engine.

Here we go...
1st Post:
What I've seen time and time again being better than not only 91 to 93 oct with water/meth AND race fuel... is E85. Proven gains on a lot of vehicles. I wonder if anyone has converted their fuel system to accept E85 and then tune it appropriately to run well.

E85 has all the cooling/power adding properties that the water/meth does... just a lot lot better. I just think, in general, running E85 pros outweigh any possible cons; it's just better for the engine.

Or we could even run an E85 map with a 91 oct map as a back up; add some sort of switch via a stock switch/button or, say you have an Evolve-R, just reflash it to run the map you want.

Anyone know of anyone that has run E85 on a N/A engine? if the gains were only 5-10 WHP... I'd do it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem solving:
The Ford Raptor can be ran with E85, it's tuned from the factory to be able to do so.

Most people do it with FI, since you see the most gains there. My idea is, if it can be done, tuned properly, and be a better fuel for my engine as well as potentially adding power, then why not try it?

Other than the tune, I don't see this costing an insane amount of money. We would need:
- Bigger injectors
- Higher flowing fuel pump (not sure what stock flows)
- Ensure the fuel lines are hard lines, if so that makes it easier
- Fill with E85
- Tune

And continuing with it...:
Found this online: http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Myths

A little more problem solving:
I/We need at least these basic questions answered...

How much does the stock inj's flow?
How much do we need the inj's to flow?
How much does the stock fuel pump flow?
How much do we need it to flow?
Where can get long lasting fuel lines? For a reasonable price
Who will help us with tuning E85 for the M3?

Example I post about another N/A engine showing gains with E85:
I'll check them out right now, probably email them too.

I believe you that he is good... but damn, that is an insane price. i would definitely like to know what gains could be had. In the turbos (STI wise) not only is E85 know for the power increase, but the huge jump in TQ as well. It would be interesting what E85 does to the N/A engine... I don't even know how to guess how much more power it would produce.

here is a part of a thread I found via google. I believe it's a Vette... or something close to it.

Dyno run:
Before E85 conversion/dyno tune: (dyno tuned on 91 octane)
433RWHP @ 5900RPM
405RWTQ @ 3200RPM (pretty much a flat line after 2200 rpm)
max timing advance was 8deg

After E85 conversion (Dyno Tune on E85)
486RWHP @ 5800RPM
492RWTQ @ 3000RPM (pretty much a flat line after 2300 rpm)
max timing advance was 36deg

Mods:
Big Inch Small Block, 1.72:1 shaft mnt RR, 12.8:1 CR, CAI, 4" Y-Pipe & CatBack, Headers, P&P heads (2.08/1.70 - I:304cfm@.580 / E:235cfm@.610), 3.73 gears, 4L65/3200Stall, 38# SVO Inj, BG Fuel Pump, E85 Conversion

Site: http://www.e85performance.net/forums...read.php?t=189

Then I decided to contact someone with some experience in the matter, ProEFI. I emailed them last night and he got back to me first thing this morning. Here is the break down of our emails this morning:
A little update: Emailing back and forth with ProEFI this morning and shed a bit of light that is very much possible...

I asked what kind of gains we can see as well as what would we need to run this setup, here is his message:
"It's hard to say what the gains would be, I would say 15 to 20% or so. You would need a complete Pro128 system with flex fuel sensor and fittings, your stock pump would be borderline for an N/A application, you might start with the stock pump and see what you need from there. Your injectors might also be o.k....would be close, but they might work." He's referring to this kit: http://www.proefi.com/Pro_128_ECU.html

I asked about what i would need to do about a tune, he said:
"I can supply a calibration that will get you VERY close"

This message I asked about total price:
"With the ecu, harness, and all the sensors and fittings, a little under $4k."

I asked for the typical gains in a turbo application to compare to the gains in N/A form:
"Turbo gains are around 12 to 15% typically."

I asked what we would need to do for tuning when we want to add other parts (headers, intake, exhaust, etc):
"Tuning is pretty straight forward for those type changes...it would be some quick fuel map adjustments."

So, it looks like ProEFI has all the ends covered as far as the E85 conversion goes. If the stock fuel pump and injectors are good... then we would literally just need their kit, basically Plug and play.

Now, that a total of just under 4k... with everything we need. But if the 15-20% increase in power is right... I'd do this in a heart beat. That would put a stock N/A engine, with 270 WHP at 310 WHP (with a 15% increase in power)... with only converting to E85. That's 40 WHP over stock!

4k in other performance parts probably wouldn't get you that close. And if it did... well, this step would be most ideal, for me, if I had a E85 accessible (which I do). Easy 40 WHP without changing out any major engine parts and then still WHP to gain when we do slap on an exhaust, intake, headers... or whatever.

Anyways... that's just my way of justifying it for me, haha.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

And that's where we are at. Hopefully I can save some money (roughly 4500, in case I don't have the tool needed to install everything), be able to purchase by mid Jan, and then run this "hybrid" E85 kit in my car. If the gains are what they say, i don't think I will be disappointed; neither will anyone else who decides to jump on this too.
Haven't read the entire thread yet but I am right there with you. Before I bought an E46 M3, I was looking at a GTR and E85 is DEFINITELY the fuel of choice for that car. Understand it is a twin turbo setup but still. I can see no wrong with E85 performance-wise. It takes roughly 1/3 more fuel though so this would decrease your driving range between fill-ups. I'm in!
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      12-02-2012, 10:09 AM   #9
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Subscribing for hopes this takes off. Was running e85 on my Subaru STi and loved it! Huge power gains to the wheels. 50whp and 50wtq. It is rather amazing stuff.
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