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      03-11-2013, 01:22 PM   #1
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Diminishing Returns

There's been plenty of talk about some of the missing rawness of the E46 and previous M3s in the E9x. The weight that comes with the current platform is obviously a concern, and while weight will be addressed in the coming M3/4, we'll have to accept the trade-off of forced-induction and electronic steering. Similar story over at Porsche...

"A lot of people are counting on this car to be the Ďbest-everí GT3, which makes no sense to me. The GT3 is the stripped, purest version of the 911, so why would I want it to start from the most complicated and arguably compromised 911 platform?

Before this car debuted, I had been wondering if the 997 was that last 911 thatís still cool to like. Iím just talking about standard model 911s, for right now. The 991 is an incredible car, but depending on your view of what the 911 is, itís quite possible that the 991 is one increment too far from the 911 premise. In retrospect, we may see the 997 as the last 911 that seems traceable to the old cars.

Thatís a broad, easily dismissed thought. But the beef with the GT3 isnít. What is the GT3? Itís not the fastest 911. Itís the rawest, most precise and most sorted. If it was about being the fastest, it would be a Turbo. So if thatís the premise of the GT3, the 991 is such a polished, noise-canceling base to start with, itís not ridiculous to theorize that the rawest variant of 991 is probably still more insulated and digitized than a base 996.

With this type of car, itís simply a matter of diminishing returns. A big part of what makes the GT3 a GT3 is that it feels like the closest to an older 911. More racecar than luxury car. If thatís your view, why would you want a 991? If you think of the GT3 as just the fastest NA 911, this one is fine. Itís more GT-R than GT3, and it will be exceedingly quick. But I think the GT3 is about more than lap times. The people who equate ďnewestĒ with ďbestĒ will be very happy. Itís about connection, communication and the sensory inputs it delivers. A car that delivers less of those inputs can still be a very quick car, but Iím not sure it makes a great GT3.

We saw this happen with the M3, and itís an almost inevitable dilemma: the goals of the mass-market platform move in the opposite direction of the goals of the niche, driving-oriented version. Because of this divergence, you can have a Ďperfectí, ďbest-everĒ base car (in this case, standard 911, or regular 3-series) that achieves all of itís goals, while the performance version is not as good as itís predecessors. This is almost a certain fate for the GT3, if not this version.

And I never even mentioned PDK."

http://kmccauley.kinja.com/diminishi...-gt3-452194880
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      03-11-2013, 02:12 PM   #2
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      03-11-2013, 02:20 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by davesaddiction View Post
There's been plenty of talk about some of the missing rawness of the E46 and previous M3s in the E9x.
I think any thoughts of "missing rawness" disappear above 8000RPM in the E9x!!
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      03-11-2013, 02:33 PM   #4
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If by the E9x being more refined means a less teeth and spine shattering ride...then by all means I will drink the E9x cool aid.

Most 'thusiasts' seem to forget that GT3s are mostly garage queens that only come out for cars and coffees + track time. Apart from that-they're parked.

The M3 is the jack of all trades, master of none. (Just as God intended)
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      03-11-2013, 02:49 PM   #5
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Like the post. My intention is to have the m3 turned into a full track build at some point and have a 997 gt3 relatively stock as well.
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      03-11-2013, 02:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by checkmate View Post
The M3 is the jack of all trades, master of none. (Just as God intended)
If it has to be (somewhat) compromised, it's an incredible compromise!

I wasn't trying to bad-mouth the E9x - I absolutely love mine. Just thought this guy's thoughts might make for decent lead-in for conversation. It's natural that successive generations of popular sports cars (and the cars they're based on) become more accessible (in size, safety, amenities, etc.) to a larger audience, but I can see that sometimes there can be a tipping point.

I don't want to judge the next M3 (of GT3, for that matter) before it's here, but some of the writing about the new 3-series has me worried. With Audi, Mercedes and Cadillac nipping at its heels, I hope BMW sees keeping their superiority in handling and vehicle dynamics as critical.
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      03-11-2013, 03:09 PM   #7
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The E9X M is a heavy beast... no way around that. however i also think its way more modern and livable. as a track car, id prefer an e46 M3 however as a daily, the E9X is the way to go. in the end, if you are getting serious about performance you will eventually face the fork in the road.... 1) buy a specific track focused race car or 2) lightly mod your street car to do multiple jobs.
both options are expensive. both options have pros and cons. this decision would be so much easier if id just win the lotto already!

as for the upcoming Ms... i think turbos are a good thing. in todays modern turbo setups, lag is something you never really notice any more. the negatives are pretty much gone. however for track use, i suspect there will be some cooling issues that the aftermarket will address. in any case, a great way to really capitalize on more power, more easily. on to the next!
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      03-11-2013, 03:25 PM   #8
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Good posts in here. I bought my E90 for the engine and the complete package that allows daily driveability in supreme comfort while still wringing out something close to a true racecar whenever I get the chance. Will I go for the turbo M in the future? Maybe, but not until this one is used up.

For the GT3, that's a whole different story and in my mind its a track tool that doesn't really belong as a street car so the older GT3 is probably more desirable.
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      03-11-2013, 03:34 PM   #9
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E9x is a great daily driver. I recently changed the default settings to D1, power off, edc to comfort. Unexpectedly I am really enjoying it. I don't like to push the car too hard before it warms up anyway. When I hit the M button now I can really notice the difference. M3 is the best of both worlds. I doubt that there are many people that DD their GT3.
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      03-11-2013, 03:46 PM   #10
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E9x is a great daily driver. I recently changed the default settings to D1, power off, edc to comfort. Unexpectedly I am really enjoying it. I don't like to push the car too hard before it warms up anyway. When I hit the M button now I can really notice the difference. M3 is the best of both worlds. I doubt that there are many people that DD their GT3.
That is exactly what I do (except for S2 on the DCT). The M3 becomes a nice cushy comfortable cruiser for daily use. This mode also encourages me to push it less and be less exposed to tickets . Now, when I want to romp, I just press the M button. Funny, but this is contractiction to most posts I saw on that M-button thread...
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      03-11-2013, 03:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by checkmate View Post
If by the E9x being more refined means a less teeth and spine shattering ride...then by all means I will drink the E9x cool aid.

Most 'thusiasts' seem to forget that GT3s are mostly garage queens that only come out for cars and coffees + track time. Apart from that-they're parked.

The M3 is the jack of all trades, master of none. (Just as God intended)
+1 Could not have said it any better
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      03-11-2013, 04:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AshyLarryMP View Post
E9x is a great daily driver. I recently changed the default settings to D1, power off, edc to comfort. Unexpectedly I am really enjoying it. I don't like to push the car too hard before it warms up anyway. When I hit the M button now I can really notice the difference.
I also use comfort as default on EDC, to help deal with some of the crap roads around here, but go with Sport for the throttle. With Sport Plus in M-mode, the change is still plenty noticeable! Can't get enough of it.
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      03-11-2013, 05:28 PM   #13
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My intention is to have the m3 turned into a full track build at some point
This is what's sweet about having a car with good bones. Any of us who own one can have this as our long term goal. Putting in the work and mods to drop this car closer to 3000 lbs (or even below that mark! - http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=784991) means that we could have a supercar-like performer on our hands.

Just a guess, but devotec probably has no complaints in the "raw" department.
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      03-11-2013, 07:56 PM   #14
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I love the E92's mix of sportyness and luxury.
I would give an arm just to be able to drive a GT3 on the track and street for a whole day .
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      03-12-2013, 02:38 PM   #15
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How is it more GT-R than GT3?

It revs to 9K rpm,will weigh around 3250lbs with no options,RWD,engine still hangs behind the rear axle,although its been moved a few inches forward,sits super low to the ground,has improved brakes,power,suspension,safety...will have less sound deadening insulation than a standard car and a dry sump flat six that will inevitably end up in the next cup car...

Yes it's a bummer that a manual is no longer offered,but hey if the PDK is as good as some say it is,it's nothing to cry over.Everything man made evolves over time.Cars are not the exception.
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      03-12-2013, 04:55 PM   #16
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This has certainly been the inevitability of change. The luxuries and technologies that most want have a price. Weight. Complexity. Isolation. So itís definitely a balance issue and a preference of the owner. Perhaps the pendulum is starting to swing back the other way. The new M4 is reported to have met the weight goal of the E46, therefore shaving 290 lbs from the E92. However it losses the fantastic S65 in favor of complex plumbing, a boost in torque and what Iím sure will be a loss in throttle response. Maybe that matters less now anyway with very few people opting for a MT.
I have never had the pleasure of driving my boyhood idol the E30 M3. To some who have driven all M3ís versions this is the only M3. But the reality is that car could not be duplicated today given current regulations and expectations. However those that feel strongly about its original character argue that the 1M was a good start.
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      03-12-2013, 05:26 PM   #17
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This has certainly been the inevitability of change. The luxuries and technologies that most want have a price. Weight. Complexity. Isolation. So itís definitely a balance issue and a preference of the owner. Perhaps the pendulum is starting to swing back the other way. The new M4 is reported to have met the weight goal of the E46, therefore shaving 290 lbs from the E92. However it losses the fantastic S65 in favor of complex plumbing, a boost in torque and what Iím sure will be a loss in throttle response. Maybe that matters less now anyway with very few people opting for a MT.
I have never had the pleasure of driving my boyhood idol the E30 M3. To some who have driven all M3ís versions this is the only M3. But the reality is that car could not be duplicated today given current regulations and expectations. However those that feel strongly about its original character argue that the 1M was a good start.
I'll believe the weight reduction when I see it. The base F30 is about the same weight as the E90, and I just don't see how the could've shaved ~300lbs. I am not saying it's impossible, but it does leave me with doubts without any specifics.

The 1M would indeed be a good start, but then why keep the EPS? I haven't met any BMW with EPS that I liked so far (be it the F30 or F10).

I am playing it safe and getting another E9x M3, but I do hope BMW gets the F8x right.
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      03-13-2013, 11:48 AM   #18
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I'll believe the weight reduction when I see it. The base F30 is about the same weight as the E90, and I just don't see how the could've shaved ~300lbs. I am not saying it's impossible, but it does leave me with doubts without any specifics.

The 1M would indeed be a good start, but then why keep the EPS? I haven't met any BMW with EPS that I liked so far (be it the F30 or F10).

I am playing it safe and getting another E9x M3, but I do hope BMW gets the F8x right.
Absolutely, I didnít even want to bring up the touchy subject of EPS. If I was considering a M4 then my two main concerns would be the turboís and the EPS. Really canít see how the character of the car is not going to change significantly just based on these two potential issues.
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      03-13-2013, 04:31 PM   #19
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I'll believe the weight reduction when I see it. The base F30 is about the same weight as the E90, and I just don't see how the could've shaved ~300lbs. I am not saying it's impossible, but it does leave me with doubts without any specifics.

The 1M would indeed be a good start, but then why keep the EPS? I haven't met any BMW with EPS that I liked so far (be it the F30 or F10).

I am playing it safe and getting another E9x M3, but I do hope BMW gets the F8x right.
An indication is that the F80 M3 / F82 M4 don't have the same chassis number as their F30/F32 3/4 series counterparts. IMO, if BMW did enough changes to the chassis to warrant a new designation, I really hope that those changes translate into significant weight reduction.
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      03-13-2013, 04:53 PM   #20
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An indication is that the F80 M3 / F82 M4 don't have the same chassis number as their F30/F32 3/4 series counterparts. IMO, if BMW did enough changes to the chassis to warrant a new designation, I really hope that those changes translate into significant weight reduction.
Very good point. If the new platform is so different from the F30/32 that it is, in essence, a completely different car, the basis of the argument (compared to the new 911) isn't really valid.

What % is the current M3 unique compared to the regular E90/92? Any guesses on how unique the next one will be?
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      03-13-2013, 04:58 PM   #21
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An indication is that the F80 M3 / F82 M4 don't have the same chassis number as their F30/F32 3/4 series counterparts. IMO, if BMW did enough changes to the chassis to warrant a new designation, I really hope that those changes translate into significant weight reduction.
What used to be internal "E" designations (stands for "Entwicklung" or roughly translated to "development") isn't a chassis code as far as I can tell. I believe it's an internal model/project designation code. I could be wrong.

When they separated the M models from the non-M 3er, my assumption is that it is just expanding the more granular designation practice. For example, the E30/E46 had one code for all 3er variants (e.g. sedans, coupes, convertibles, M's, etc.), and when they moved to E9x, they started giving out individual designations for each body type. The chassis was still shared among the various body types despite the distinct designations.

Even if we were to assume that BMW is going to alter the chassis design significantly, it comes down to the material and manufacturing process, which is bound to be very expensive if they were to shed ~300lbs. I am pretty sure BMW then will pass the increased cost down to the customers. Perhaps, that's why we are hearing rumors about the MSRP going up significantly?

Too many speculations and not enough facts to debate this point. I do hope you are right that the next M3 achieves good weight reduction.
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      03-13-2013, 06:15 PM   #22
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What used to be internal "E" designations (stands for "Entwicklung" or roughly translated to "development") isn't a chassis code as far as I can tell. I believe it's an internal model/project designation code. I could be wrong.

When they separated the M models from the non-M 3er, my assumption is that it is just expanding the more granular designation practice. For example, the E30/E46 had one code for all 3er variants (e.g. sedans, coupes, convertibles, M's, etc.), and when they moved to E9x, they started giving out individual designations for each body type. The chassis was still shared among the various body types despite the distinct designations.

Even if we were to assume that BMW is going to alter the chassis design significantly, it comes down to the material and manufacturing process, which is bound to be very expensive if they were to shed ~300lbs. I am pretty sure BMW then will pass the increased cost down to the customers. Perhaps, that's why we are hearing rumors about the MSRP going up significantly?

Too many speculations and not enough facts to debate this point. I do hope you are right that the next M3 achieves good weight reduction.
Possible, however they kept the same F10 designation for the regular 5 series and the M5 and F12/F13 for the regular 6 series and M6...

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