lap time target for intermediate level at Thunderhill

[francisyang]

Hi Guys,
For people who are familair with Thunderhill, I want to know what my lap time target should be.

I had around 10 track days some far, 3 in the stock 2012 M3 (7 in 350z), 5 at Thunderhill. I went to the BWMCCA driving school at Thunderhill last weekend, and it was a great event, I learned a lot. I was in group C and my best lap time was around 2'19.

Please let me know what you think the lap time of stock 2012 M3 should be with intermediate level driver. So that I have a target in mind

Thanks
Francis

[jphughan]

I'm an intermediate driver running an 11 M3 that's stock except for upgraded brake fluid and pads, but honestly I don't feel that I should be timing myself at this point. I think the knowledge that I was timing myself would subconsciously change the decisions I make, and not for the better -- plus I think I still have enough general technique to learn/improve (throttle steer, trail braking) that using times and telemetry to compare lines and such isn't necessary yet.

Also my insurance coverage isn't in effect when I'm timing myself, and I suspect the reason for that is the psychological impact that timing has. I read an article on the Nurburgring where the officials said that when there's an accident, 80% of the time the driver was using some sort of timing device.

[mkiv808]

I wouldn't aim for faster times. Just try to be the best/smoothest driver you can be. Until you're in the red/black group, you really shouldn't be attempting to shave off seconds. That's when you get in trouble IMO.

There's no mystery as to why 90% of HPDE accidents happen in the intermediate groups.

If you find yourself pacing or passing other drivers in the intermediate group without pushing yourself too hard, then you know you're above par for the group.

[Team Plutonium]

Originally Posted by mkiv808

I wouldn't aim for faster times. Just try to be the best/smoothest driver you can be. Until you're in the red/black group, you really shouldn't be attempting to shave off seconds. That's when you get in trouble IMO.

There's no mystery as to why 90% of HPDE accidents happen in the intermediate groups.

If you find yourself pacing or passing other drivers in the intermediate group without pushing yourself too hard, then you know you're above par for the group.

Well said.

[BartMW]

Originally Posted by mkiv808

I wouldn't aim for faster times. Just try to be the best/smoothest driver you can be. Until you're in the red/black group, you really shouldn't be attempting to shave off seconds. That's when you get in trouble IMO.

There's no mystery as to why 90% of HPDE accidents happen in the intermediate groups.

If you find yourself pacing or passing other drivers in the intermediate group without pushing yourself too hard, then you know you're above par for the group.

Agreed. Your instructor will let you know when it's time to move up a group.

I asked one of my instructors when I'd be ready to move up to the advanced group and he said, "when no one is passing you." Just work on vision and being smooth and the lap times will take care of themselves.

[Erhan]

Agreed with others. I once placed my iPhone in a way I can see the timing, and I imminently realized how distracting it is.

Record your times, but in a way that you can't see them during your session. The reason why I say record your times is to have a general idea about your progress.

[dagolfpro]

Originally Posted by Erhan

Agreed with others. I once placed my iPhone in a way I can see the timing, and I imminently realized how distracting it is.

Record your times, but in a way that you can't see them during your session. The reason why I say record your times is to have a general idea about your progress.

Totally agree. I use Harry's lap timer and it's mounted on the passenger side so I don't look at it until the session is over. I ran Thill in reverse and ran 2:26. It was my first track day in my M3. My friends were running 2:08. I didn't care as it was my first time on a track in my precious. I had a great time and was able to drive home without any damages.

[forced03]

My best time at Thunderhill is also 2:19. Think I was in a low intermediate group so most of the day traffic was holding me up a little-- due to m3 ability not driver skill

Only have 4 days or so under my belt (2 at t-hill) but times were dropping as the day went on to a best of 2.19. M dynamic mode. DCT. Traction control saved me once in corner 3 I think it was (off camber after long left). Definitely was not braking that aggressive and let off a little early on long straight.

I was going to ask an instructor to ride along to see if he thought I should graduate to intermediate but thought it was better to get more seat time in the lower groups before moving up. It's stressful being one of the slower cars and I find I make mistakes when someone is coming up on me..

[francisyang]

Guys, thanks a lot for your replies. I think you are right, I should focus on the skills instead of the lap time Have a nice weekend

Thanks
Francis

[SP33DRCR]

Hey Francis, I'd like to take a stab at replying to your post and give you a bit of a different perspective. I too have just started tracking an e92 M3 and have been to Thill. I've done two events with the Cyclone, and one with the bypass. My car is stock, except for pads. My very first day, I got down into the 2:21s. The second day, it was down to the 2:12s with lots of 13s, 14s and 15s.
There are may ways to measure one's driving, but isn't time the universal yardstick? I use Harry's, and the lap data is very helpful to me in understanding what I did right and what I did wrong--and a way to know what skills I need to improve upon. Although I enjoy chasing (and passing) much faster cars, my ultimate goal is improving my own time. I guess I see smoothness more as a skill to develop, not an end goal.

Cheers,
-E

[jphughan]

^ Time is the universal measure (and for some the ultimate goal), but it's also VERY general; it tells you you're improving (or not), but not HOW to improve. And as others have also noted, knowledge of your time and that you're being timed has its price in terms of distraction, decision-making, and possibly insurance coverage.

I would argue that at the beginning and intermediate stages when you're still improving by leaps and bounds before you start working harder for smaller improvements in advanced groups, you don't need a timer or telemetry to tell that you're getting significantly faster; it's just too big a difference not to be perfectly obvious. Your instructor will be able to tell you what general techniques you need to work on or start incorporating in order to continue going faster. Telemetry comes in AFTER you can consistently and correctly apply all of the general techniques and want to see the impact of minor line/technique adaptations.

I'm out there to become a skilled driver and of course have a great time. Smoothness and technique application IS actually my end goal, not lower times, because I see fast lap times as a byproduct of achieving my goal. But striving for fast lap times won't automatically make someone smooth or skilled in technique. You get fast by being smooth, not the other way around.