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      11-02-2012, 12:56 AM   #1
GrussGott
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So I rode in a brand new Tesla ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
All I can tell you is, in 2020 in the USA, the gasoline engine will still be king. Of course the engines will become more efficient, and gas more expensive, and hybrids more prevalent.
Here's my quickie review of it:
  1. The interior is a basic design, although the materials are nice (leather, alcantera, etc)
  2. The center touchscreen display is absolutely massive - it feels as big as a kitchen cabinet door and the software (100% custom i understand) is stellar
  3. The wheels and brakes are HUGE: 21" wheels, no idea what the rotors are but they're big
  4. All of the cords, ports, doors, latches, keys, etc are well done and feel solid & expensive
  5. The car drives like a bat out of hell; it's as fast as an M3

Here's the interesting part:

As a dude who spends a LOT of time thinking about cars the Tesla (and fiskers, etc) have been curiosities but nothing approaching interest. I've always considered myself the carbon-burning fire-breather type ... the kind willing to spend 1000s just to hear the engine better.

What I wasn't prepared for was getting back to my M3 and having it suddenly feel ... old timey. Like going from an M3 to a chariot; fast and raw feeling but out-dated.

I can't say I have anything approaching desire to get a tesla sedan, but I can't shake the feeling that it has the drivetrain of the future ... or at least my future.

Suddenly the i8 is sounding pretty compelling.

weird.
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      11-02-2012, 08:15 AM   #2
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I think you be better off with a fisker than tesla. Longer battery and both petro + Eletric.

The problem that I hear most from owners is that driving hard eat the battery life quickly so sometimes you have to wait for a recharge before taking it out again.

I just think of them like a nice prius. Maybe it's new car old car feeling. Drive the new ///M6 and our e92 will feel old also.
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      11-02-2012, 08:49 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by cmk227 View Post
Maybe it's new car old car feeling. Drive the new ///M6 and our e92 will feel old also.
Excellent suggestion! The markup is pretty crazy though! I can get a carrera s for that ... I wonder what pricing on the new M3s will be ...
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      11-02-2012, 10:41 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmk227 View Post
I think you be better off with a fisker than tesla. Longer battery and both petro + Eletric.

The problem that I hear most from owners is that driving hard eat the battery life quickly so sometimes you have to wait for a recharge before taking it out again.

I just think of them like a nice prius. Maybe it's new car old car feeling. Drive the new ///M6 and our e92 will feel old also.
I used to loathe the old 6 series styling.. the new ones are gorgeous.

Especially the new M6 GranSport..
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      11-02-2012, 10:43 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Here's my quickie review of it:
  1. The interior is a basic design, although the materials are nice (leather, alcantera, etc)
  2. The center touchscreen display is absolutely massive - it feels as big as a kitchen cabinet door and the software (100% custom i understand) is stellar
  3. The wheels and brakes are HUGE: 21" wheels, no idea what the rotors are but they're big
  4. All of the cords, ports, doors, latches, keys, etc are well done and feel solid & expensive
  5. The car drives like a bat out of hell; it's as fast as an M3

Here's the interesting part:

As a dude who spends a LOT of time thinking about cars the Tesla (and fiskers, etc) have been curiosities but nothing approaching interest. I've always considered myself the carbon-burning fire-breather type ... the kind willing to spend 1000s just to hear the engine better.

What I wasn't prepared for was getting back to my M3 and having it suddenly feel ... old timey. Like going from an M3 to a chariot; fast and raw feeling but out-dated.

I can't say I have anything approaching desire to get a tesla sedan, but I can't shake the feeling that it has the drivetrain of the future ... or at least my future.

Suddenly the i8 is sounding pretty compelling.

weird.
The Tesla is as fast/faster than the M3 until the first corner. After that it is "goodbye, Mr. Bond". Even the Lotus Evora that is used as the base platform runs away from the Tesla Roadster after the first corner.

The issue with any electric is going to be weight from the batteries. That extra weight, especially concentrated in the way that it is typically concentrated, adds enough inertia to the car to make cornering an adventure.

I can't imagine that they've solved that sort of issue with the sedan. Perhaps using an idea like Ferrari's to use a HYBRID and have a bank of batteries slung insanely low on the chasis might fix the issue, but you'll never get enough battery power without huge weight issues.

On top of that is the reliability factor. Tesla even went so far as to sue Top Gear to try to keep it quiet that their cars are so unreliable that both samples broke during a few day test. Electrics are just not "ready for prime time".
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      11-02-2012, 10:51 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Here's my quickie review of it:


I can't say I have anything approaching desire to get a tesla sedan, but I can't shake the feeling that it has the drivetrain of the future ... or at least my future.

Suddenly the i8 is sounding pretty compelling.

weird.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmk227 View Post
I think you be better off with a fisker than tesla. Longer battery and both petro + Eletric.

The problem that I hear most from owners is that driving hard eat the battery life quickly so sometimes you have to wait for a recharge before taking it out again.

I just think of them like a nice prius. Maybe it's new car old car feeling. Drive the new ///M6 and our e92 will feel old also.

Nice quick review Guss. My father actually owns the Tesla 2-door and is taking delivery of the 4-door next month (he has a bunch of cars so he likes to try different things).

The 2-door is a straight rocket, and a toy. Also good for the winter as it has a substantial amount of weight over the rear tires. I 100% love driving that car though, I have driven it daily for several days in a row and it's extremely user-friendly and easy to drive despite the fact you feel 2 inches from the road (it has very good front clearance). The steering wheel is comically small, similar to a Logitech video game wheel.

CMK, I have also driven the Fisker for awhile, as my father was considering that as well. 1 word describes it: HYPE. It's kind of cool because when you're inside it, looking over the front you feel like you're in the batmobile because of all the cool curves and lines of the hood.

The car is massive, slow (compared to the tesla), and gets much worse range. Add to that the fact that it makes a very odd 'whurrrring' noise as you're driving (simulated sound so pedestrians will hear you coming), and it becomes a little odd. The backseats are really small, and the trunk is no bigger than the Tesla roadster haha. Really, it's ridiculously small.

The Fisker LOOKS cool, but that's where the intrigue ends. I think the next primary electric vehicle will be the likes of a Volt, which is 1/2 and 1/2. EVENTUALLY we'll see more mass-produced all-electrics.
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      11-02-2012, 11:03 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Tanglewood View Post
Nice quick review Guss. My father actually owns the Tesla 2-door and is taking delivery of the 4-door next month (he has a bunch of cars so he likes to try different things).

The 2-door is a straight rocket, and a toy. Also good for the winter as it has a substantial amount of weight over the rear tires. I 100% love driving that car though, I have driven it daily for several days in a row and it's extremely user-friendly and easy to drive despite the fact you feel 2 inches from the road (it has very good front clearance). The steering wheel is comically small, similar to a Logitech video game wheel.

CMK, I have also driven the Fisker for awhile, as my father was considering that as well. 1 word describes it: HYPE. It's kind of cool because when you're inside it, looking over the front you feel like you're in the batmobile because of all the cool curves and lines of the hood.

The car is massive, slow (compared to the tesla), and gets much worse range. Add to that the fact that it makes a very odd 'whurrrring' noise as you're driving (simulated sound so pedestrians will hear you coming), and it becomes a little odd. The backseats are really small, and the trunk is no bigger than the Tesla roadster haha. Really, it's ridiculously small.

The Fisker LOOKS cool, but that's where the intrigue ends. I think the next primary electric vehicle will be the likes of a Volt, which is 1/2 and 1/2. EVENTUALLY we'll see more mass-produced all-electrics.
I've been in a Fisker several times and I agree with all your points. Slow, but great to look at.

I don't think were ever going to see a large variety of all-electrics simply based on the limited range and long charging times. I think the swing will be to hydrogen fuel cells in the future
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      11-02-2012, 11:19 AM   #8
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You'd think the guy who was able to put together a group to send shyte into space would be able to pull off a similar level of success building a car.

It snagged "Automobile of the Year" recently - hope, in the long run, it proves to be as good as some of the reviews I've seen.

I love my fire-breathing oil burner, but I also love competition in the marketplace. I just hope that the government doesn't get so involved that all cars will have to be hybrids in a decade or so.

We're already seeing makers adjust to governmental pressure (auto start-stop in current M3, turbo six in upcoming M3/4). I hope it's not the case, but we may be living through the final golden age of the internal combustion engine...
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      11-02-2012, 11:45 AM   #9
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It's not govt pressure, it's CAFE requirements.
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      11-02-2012, 12:52 PM   #10
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Tesla is pretty sweet. Get one with 200 mile range and t pretty similar to what we get with our cars, but you get to charge it at home. Not to mention, you should getter range compared to a gas engine since you're not idling unless you have the heater or AC on.
They have the batteries on the floor of the car, so it has the lowest center of gravity of any car out. They set up "Superchargers" along routs to popular destinations that let you charge in 30 minutes. The optimum model seems to run about $85,000, so around the price of a well equipped 550. There's also minimal maintenance on the cars. It has a usable front trunk and optional jumpseats in back for kids.

Their new SUV looks great too and the top line model will be really fast.

The Fisker is just a waste of our tax dollars. They catch on fire when parked and a few burned up in the floods. The battery range is crap and it has terrible usable space.

.
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      11-02-2012, 08:32 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVMA Doc
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Here's my quickie review of it:
  1. The interior is a basic design, although the materials are nice (leather, alcantera, etc)
  2. The center touchscreen display is absolutely massive - it feels as big as a kitchen cabinet door and the software (100% custom i understand) is stellar
  3. The wheels and brakes are HUGE: 21" wheels, no idea what the rotors are but they're big
  4. All of the cords, ports, doors, latches, keys, etc are well done and feel solid & expensive
  5. The car drives like a bat out of hell; it's as fast as an M3

Here's the interesting part:

As a dude who spends a LOT of time thinking about cars the Tesla (and fiskers, etc) have been curiosities but nothing approaching interest. I've always considered myself the carbon-burning fire-breather type ... the kind willing to spend 1000s just to hear the engine better.

What I wasn't prepared for was getting back to my M3 and having it suddenly feel ... old timey. Like going from an M3 to a chariot; fast and raw feeling but out-dated.

I can't say I have anything approaching desire to get a tesla sedan, but I can't shake the feeling that it has the drivetrain of the future ... or at least my future.

Suddenly the i8 is sounding pretty compelling.

weird.
The Tesla is as fast/faster than the M3 until the first corner. After that it is "goodbye, Mr. Bond". Even the Lotus Evora that is used as the base platform runs away from the Tesla Roadster after the first corner.

The issue with any electric is going to be weight from the batteries. That extra weight, especially concentrated in the way that it is typically concentrated, adds enough inertia to the car to make cornering an adventure.

I can't imagine that they've solved that sort of issue with the sedan. Perhaps using an idea like Ferrari's to use a HYBRID and have a bank of batteries slung insanely low on the chasis might fix the issue, but you'll never get enough battery power without huge weight issues.

On top of that is the reliability factor. Tesla even went so far as to sue Top Gear to try to keep it quiet that their cars are so unreliable that both samples broke during a few day test. Electrics are just not "ready for prime time".
The Tesla model S is a vera heavy car Because Of the batteries, but they are placed in such a way that the center Of gravity is low to the ground. I'd say it would give an M5 a run for it's money on a circuit
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      11-02-2012, 09:45 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motortrend View Post
The Tesla model S is a vera heavy car Because Of the batteries, but they are placed in such a way that the center Of gravity is low to the ground. I'd say it would give an M5 a run for it's money on a circuit
2013 Automobile of the Year: Tesla Model S

"It's alarming to jam the accelerator of such a big car and have it surge forward so quickly and so quietly," says copy editor Rusty Blackwell. Like most electric cars, the Model S generates its torque almost instantly. Unlike most electric cars, Tesla's torque amounts to a prodigious 443 lb-ft, all of which goes to the rear wheels. The only indicators of your stunning momentum are the rush of scenery around you, a faint whine, and the digital speedometer's difficulty keeping pace. "Driving the Model S is decidedly not like piloting a Nissan Leaf or an electric Smart," notes road test editor Christopher Nelson. Contributor Ezra Dyer, meanwhile, was so impressed that he arranged an informal drag race to 100 mph with a 560-hp BMW M5. The Model S won. "It bears repeating: this thing is silly quick," he concluded.
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      11-02-2012, 10:19 PM   #13
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No current Tesla can take me to VIR for a weekend full of blissful tracking... And the price is on the ridiculous side for the time being.

Would the 2020 model allow it? Possibly, but I'm not holding my breath.
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      11-02-2012, 11:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Would the 2020 model allow it? Possibly, but I'm not holding my breath.

well ... it aint gonna be a fisker

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...igh-end-carmak
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      11-03-2012, 12:24 AM   #15
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]I don't think were ever going to see a large variety of all-electrics simply based on the limited range and long charging times. I think the swing will be to hydrogen fuel cells in the future
I don't think so ... this Tesla has a near 300 mile range (similar to the M3!) and charging can be in 30 min. Here in San Jose you can just charge it at work or at any of the Blink changing stations around town, plus there are plenty on the way to LA. Put a few "super chargers" at a Starbucks, enjoy a coffee, and you're good to go.

Found a great review from Motor Trend's Ignition: "car 3.0 ... most important car since the model t ..."

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      11-03-2012, 12:03 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
I don't think so ... this Tesla has a near 300 mile range (similar to the M3!) and charging can be in 30 min. Here in San Jose you can just charge it at work or at any of the Blink changing stations around town, plus there are plenty on the way to LA. Put a few "super chargers" at a Starbucks, enjoy a coffee, and you're good to go.

Found a great review from Motor Trend's Ignition: "car 3.0 ... most important car since the model t ..."
I think it's a tremendous technological accomplishment, but one that strangely leaves no mark on 95% of the driving population. With a price tag of nearly $100k and a curb weight of 4750 lbs, it is not a mass transportation device like the Model T, nor an enthusiast's first choice.

If I had $100 grand to spend on a fun car, I'd immediately buy a used GT3 or F430 stick shift.


BMW on the other hand I think is heading in the right direction: carbon fiber and aluminum construction and a price tag around $30-40k for the i3 means I will certainly consider it for a daily driver.
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      11-03-2012, 01:58 PM   #17
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I'd consider this first
http://www.rimac-automobili.com/
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      11-03-2012, 05:13 PM   #18
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I love the Tesla and all, but I agree with ///M3THOD in that the car of the future will be powered by Hydrogen. Its just the most viable, convenient choice.

On the other hand... I wonder what the ///M division will do with alternate power cars ... could you imagine electric/hydrogen/hybrid M cars??? They've already worked wonders with diesel, the possibilities are just endless!
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      11-04-2012, 10:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
I think it's a tremendous technological accomplishment, but one that strangely leaves no mark on 95% of the driving population.
You could be right, my sense is that the strategy is more akin to the iphone or electricity:
  • A new technology starts as a luxury for the wealthy which generates awareness
  • As more role models buy the item the price moves down and it goes from awareness to interest
  • As the supportive infrastructure grows and price comes down further interest turns to want
  • As the technology proliferates everyday uses want turns to need and pretty soon nobody can imagine living without it
The reason I think electrics will win is because there are a lot of them and the infrastructure is growing to support them.

Here in silicon valley most of the big tech companies have charging stations in the front row of parking and it seems to be kind of a status symbol. At the same time, charging stations are popping up all over.

So, in the end, I think electrics have already won - at least for the next few decades, but then who knows?
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      11-05-2012, 08:59 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
You could be right, my sense is that the strategy is more akin to the iphone or electricity:
  • A new technology starts as a luxury for the wealthy which generates awareness
  • As more role models buy the item the price moves down and it goes from awareness to interest
  • As the supportive infrastructure grows and price comes down further interest turns to want
  • As the technology proliferates everyday uses want turns to need and pretty soon nobody can imagine living without it
The reason I think electrics will win is because there are a lot of them and the infrastructure is growing to support them.

Here in silicon valley most of the big tech companies have charging stations in the front row of parking and it seems to be kind of a status symbol. At the same time, charging stations are popping up all over.

So, in the end, I think electrics have already won - at least for the next few decades, but then who knows?
Well the electric car is not really a luxury item because there's the Leaf. In fact my friend leased one and I got a chance to drive it. Let's just say I have no desire to own a car like that, even if the range were 300 miles.

My comment was in respect to the Tesla. The compromise they made to extend the range to more useful values was to add a boatload of batteries; that in turn increased both the cost and the weight tremendously.

BMW is trying to offset the weight problem by building the cars from CF and aluminum, all the time maintaining reasonable prices despite a technology which is way more advanced than the Tesla. I see this paying dividends early.

But here is the rub from my point of view: with my commute, I fill up just about 2 or at the most 3 times per month. There is absolutely no financial incentive for me to pay thousands (or tens of thousands) more for an electric vehicle. For it to succeed, it needs to give me something more than my M3: more driving excitement, less cost, or perhaps both.

The principle of the electric car doesn't bother me one bit. The execution does.
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      11-06-2012, 06:33 PM   #21
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I own Tesla stock so obviously I believe in the company, but...

There's no doubt it's a quick car in real world conditions but to say it's faster than gas powered performance sedans is a gross misstatement of the facts. Like the Roadster before it, it's all launch and midrange, with zilch for topend. A 328i would pull it above 100mph.

I'm interested to see when they start putting multi-speed gearboxes in their cars. That would make a big difference in topend (which is really irrelevant in the real world, heh)

As for a Model S giving an M5 a run for its money around a racetrack? No. The M5 traps 10mph higher in the 1/4 mile, and accelerates much, much harder between 70mph and 140mph than the Model S, which are the important speed ranges on a road course. It's also 600lbs heavier and the CG height isn't that much better, maybe half an inch to an inch, and the M5 comes with much better tires and brakes as well. It's not a contest, not even close.

The fact that we're having this discussion, means Tesla has changed the game IMO
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      11-06-2012, 08:59 PM   #22
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I'm on the list for a performance S
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