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      08-02-2012, 05:25 PM   #1
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ESS or VF Supercharger Owners - Tune Question

I'm curious whether anyone of you have added a piggy back tune on top of the ESS/VF flash tune that comes with the supercharger kits. I haven't decided on whether I'm going with an ESS or VF kit yet, however, no matter what kit I decide upon, I would like to stack a Procede on top of the ESS/VF flash in order to control meth injection and to also take advantage of the Procede's traction control feature (which is fantastic on my 335).

So...I got to thinking...why couldn't the Procede also "fine tune" a meth-only map? I have seen Drew's dyno where meth injection made ~ 10 to 15 more WHP. But the ESS/VF tunes aren't specifically designed with meth in mind. Sure they compensate for lower IAT's and higher effective octane, however there could be quite a bit power left on the table.
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      08-02-2012, 06:22 PM   #2
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You can always tune a car to make more power at the expense of safety margin. We do not believe in tuning forced induction with the hope that a helper like water meth is being used at all times. I would not suggest altering or running anything that changes our supercharger software. There is a reason our supercharger kits have been extremely reliable over the years. If you have the money for a new motor you can definitely play around with aggressive software on a supercharger and see if you can squeeze a bit more power out of it, just make sure you can afford to pay the price tag if it goes bad

Adding water meth to our standard kits is safe and effective if done properly without changing the software or running a piggyback.
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      08-02-2012, 06:27 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
You can always tune a car to make more power at the expense of safety margin. We do not believe in tuning forced induction with the hope that a helper like water meth is being used at all times. I would not suggest altering or running anything that changes our supercharger software. There is a reason our supercharger kits have been extremely reliable over the years. If you have the money for a new motor you can definitely play around with aggressive software on a supercharger and see if you can squeeze a bit more power out of it, just make sure you can afford to pay the price tag if it goes bad

Adding water meth to our standard kits is safe and effective if done properly without changing the software or running a piggyback.
Hi Roman yeah I knew your stance on this but I was just curious if anyone else had added meth and tuned for more power. But even if someone has, maybe they wouldn't admit to that here with you guys watching
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      08-02-2012, 08:25 PM   #4
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Is it really worth 10-15 HP when you're talking 575-650 HP???

When is that 15 HP ever going to make a difference?
I'm not hating, just trying to figure out why someone would do it?
Particularly since at least a couple have had blown motors.
.
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      08-02-2012, 08:47 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Is it really worth 10-15 HP when you're talking 575-650 HP???

When is that 15 HP ever going to make a difference?
I'm not hating, just trying to figure out why someone would do it?
Particularly since at least a couple have had blown motors.
.
Meth is worth a lot more that 10-15 HP on a supercharged application like this if it is tuned for it. That's the problem...you can add meth/water but the ESS/VF tune just adjust the timing tables for the lower IAT's and so there is a slight power increase. If one tuned for the drop in IAT's and higher effective octane rating, a far greater HP increase could be acheived. So, has anyone done this on an ESS/VF kit?
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      08-02-2012, 09:46 PM   #6
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The Procede only sprays the meth when called upon. The meth tune is only active if the meth is spraying. As soon as meth stops spraying or you run out of meth, the Procede defaults to Map 1, which is a without meth tune. All mods are a gamble and tuning is at the owner's risk. ESS has a proven record for reliability as does Vishnu. Probably would make a pretty good combo package but you'd be a pioneer in testing and risk. I'd love to have someone do this before me.
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      08-03-2012, 07:51 AM   #7
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You'd have to have a good tuner configure your car on the dyno for the best results. Just have one tune made instead of adding one on top of the other.
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      08-03-2012, 08:01 AM   #8
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i never understood why folks go the route of uber modifications to an already modified car... if you really needed that much more power, get a car that has it! (GT-R, GT3, etc etc).

Don't mind me, just talking out loud...
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      08-03-2012, 08:43 AM   #9
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It depends on the meth setup. AA's kit is more like a charge cooler to keep the IATs down. I don't think AA changes their tune for the meth.

Something like HPF's meth kit on the E46 is a power adder and the tune accounts for it. That is also a somewhat complex system that has a lot of safety nets. From what I know, it is a reliable system as well. My want to look there, look at their dyno charts between the meth and non-meth systems. Might give you an idea on how much power you can get.

IMO, I don't think you'll get good/safe results unless you have a REALLY knowledgable and good BMW tuner nearby and have lots of money to throw at it.
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      08-03-2012, 12:00 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longbow64 View Post
The Procede only sprays the meth when called upon. The meth tune is only active if the meth is spraying. As soon as meth stops spraying or you run out of meth, the Procede defaults to Map 1, which is a without meth tune. All mods are a gamble and tuning is at the owner's risk. ESS has a proven record for reliability as does Vishnu. Probably would make a pretty good combo package but you'd be a pioneer in testing and risk. I'd love to have someone do this before me.
Yes, and I like the fact that the ESS supercharger systems have been extremely reliable. With the meth/tune of the piggy, I would not be attempting to push to the limit - but rather incorporate the Procede's already terrific fail safe measures such that if meth didn't flow, it would revert back to the standard ESS map. The meth map would be tuned by Shiv himself on a dyno, and I would request the parameters to be within ESS' tuning (timing/AFR, etc) specification as to not induce any additional risk. But I think this could be done with more than a 10-15 RWHP increase.

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You'd have to have a good tuner configure your car on the dyno for the best results. Just have one tune made instead of adding one on top of the other.
How can you specifically tune for the addition of meth/water flow with a flash when sometimes the meth flows and sometimes it does not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post
i never understood why folks go the route of uber modifications to an already modified car... if you really needed that much more power, get a car that has it! (GT-R, GT3, etc etc).

Don't mind me, just talking out loud...
Fair point. I looked at both the GT-R and GT3. The GT3 wasn't practical enough as a DD and the GT-R just wasn't for me. The M3 is perfect as an all-around car...except that the acceleration is bit slow (IMHO) and needs a couple hundred more HP to compete in the events that I attend.
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      08-03-2012, 12:43 PM   #11
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The VF Engineering kit comes with an air/water cooler eliminating the need of having meth. The new cooling system does the job well. No need to run meth injection.

We have a VF620 on its way to us in Florida and another about to be ordered. Both customers steered away from meth and really like the added cooling system on the VF kit.


Are you curious because of the heat or you just want to add the meth system to the supercharger?
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      08-03-2012, 12:58 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will@PRS View Post
The VF Engineering kit comes with an air/water cooler eliminating the need of having meth. The new cooling system does the job well. No need to run meth injection.

We have a VF620 on its way to us in Florida and another about to be ordered. Both customers steered away from meth and really like the added cooling system on the VF kit.


Are you curious because of the heat or you just want to add the meth system to the supercharger?
+1.



We've been running our VF620 M3 during the summer - including 107F+ temps during extended sessions in Las Vegas Speedway/Mfest.
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      08-03-2012, 03:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will@PRS View Post
The VF Engineering kit comes with an air/water cooler eliminating the need of having meth. The new cooling system does the job well. No need to run meth injection.

We have a VF620 on its way to us in Florida and another about to be ordered. Both customers steered away from meth and really like the added cooling system on the VF kit.


Are you curious because of the heat or you just want to add the meth system to the supercharger?
Not just heat, but octane as well.

I understand both the VF620 and ESS VT2 kits come with air/water intercooling. And no matter how good the air/water systems are, the addition of meth/water with both reduce IATs and provide a much higher effective octane rating. As an example, I have an intercooler on my N54 335. Without meth/water it is tuned to 14.5 psi making ~ 350 RWHP. But with the meth/water, IAT's are significantly reduced (I have plenty of logs of this) and the meth increases the effective octane on pump 91 gas to something near 100 and so ignition can be advanced and boost can be increased. In this map, it yields ~ 410 RWHP.

I am not advocating meth as an alternative to an intercooler. I want to add meth to an already intercooled application and tune for it.
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      08-03-2012, 03:31 PM   #14
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Quote:
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+1.

We've been running our VF620 M3 during the summer - including 107F+ temps during extended sessions in Las Vegas Speedway/Mfest.
That is terrific Tom and demonstrates the proven capabilities of the intercooling on the VF kit.

Now, check this out...at a recent track event at Willow Springs where it was very hot, my 335 with only basic mods (Procede + meth + dci + dps) was staying with/pulling on cars with way more power on the back straight - in particular a 667 HP tuned biturbo CLS AMG and a heavily modded 580 HP M6. It was due to the meth allowing for stable, low IATs for a sustained period. Is my car faster than these in cool conditions? No way...but in racing scenarios where significant heat is generated the performance stays the same. It was the other cars that suffered dramaticaly. I believe that your car can perform even better if paired with a meth kit and tuned for it.

There are other who have added water/meth to the ESS VT2 and VT3 kits, any maybe some that have added it to the VF, but I haven't found anyone that has tuned specifically for it - maybe I will be the first.
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      08-04-2012, 10:44 AM   #15
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Meth may make 10-15 hp on the dyno, but that's most likely to insufficient airflow. No fan is gonna replicate 120 mph on the dyno. As I told Drew, it won't hurt anything, but you probly won't gain anything ether. You can't compare meth on a air to air intercooler to a water to air intercooler. People use meth on air to air because it's less efficient than air to water. You would be better off filling your tank with ice cubes or spraying an alcohol water combo on the heat exchanger in front of the radiator if your trying to squeeze another 10hp out of your blower. Eliminate your primary cats if your looking for more power.
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      08-04-2012, 12:25 PM   #16
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Let's get this straight ... meth cools better than any inter cooler available !
I can bombard this thread with enough Data proving my point .
And not to mention I gained 25whp an 10-15 wtq with the addition of 30f lower in IAT's all this was done on a VT650 in 88f 70's humidity .
The only reason I installed Meth was to get cold weather performance in the summer so the added whp is only the lost whp due to heat ! The car is NOT tuned for meth and I'm using te smallest nozzle possible , again it's just for cooling !
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      08-04-2012, 01:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33
Let's get this straight ... meth cools better than any inter cooler available !
I can bombard this thread with enough Data proving my point .
And not to mention I gained 25whp an 10-15 wtq with the addition of 30f lower in IAT's all this was done on a VT650 in 88f 70's humidity .
The only reason I installed Meth was to get cold weather performance in the summer so the added whp is only the lost whp due to heat ! The car is NOT tuned for meth and I'm using te smallest nozzle possible , again it's just for cooling !
Agreed, one would be hard pressed to find an intercooler that has the cooling effects of water/meth injection. Let's be clear here, all of the kits have setups that do not require meth, but running 91 octane only at a certain point is not ideal, at that point most of the companies require 93 octane, which is smart, AA has a 91 and meth option as well.
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      08-04-2012, 07:22 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Let's get this straight ... meth cools better than any inter cooler available !
I can bombard this thread with enough Data proving my point .
And not to mention I gained 25whp an 10-15 wtq with the addition of 30f lower in IAT's all this was done on a VT650 in 88f 70's humidity .
The only reason I installed Meth was to get cold weather performance in the summer so the added whp is only the lost whp due to heat ! The car is NOT tuned for meth and I'm using te smallest nozzle possible , again it's just for cooling !
So true. On back to back runs at the Trona Airstrip event, I logged a run where meth didn't flow and hit 90c IATs!. On the very next run meth flowed and logged 36c. Huge difference. Boost on the 90c run peaked at 14 and tapered to 11, where boost on the 36c run peaked at 19 and tapered to 16.

I will run meth, but going the piggy back route to control the meth probably will not happen. While the meth will not provide signifcant gains on the dyno, it will likely provide a large HP delta during track events when higher IAT's occur.
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      08-04-2012, 09:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Let's get this straight ... meth cools better than any inter cooler available !
I can bombard this thread with enough Data proving my point .
And not to mention I gained 25whp an 10-15 wtq with the addition of 30f lower in IAT's all this was done on a VT650 in 88f 70's humidity .
The only reason I installed Meth was to get cold weather performance in the summer so the added whp is only the lost whp due to heat ! The car is NOT tuned for meth and I'm using te smallest nozzle possible , again it's just for cooling !
can you please post about your setup!
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      08-05-2012, 02:50 PM   #20
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Quote:
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can you please post about your setup!
I'm running a coolingmist setup which is pretty simple & consists of a CMGS gauge matted with a Cm5 nozzle , flow sensor & selinoid with a 2.5trunk mount tank with the pump mounted on it.....
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      08-05-2012, 10:40 PM   #21
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Glad you asked this question, as I've been pondering the same thing. As you mentioned, the Procede allows 4 maps, so there's no reason to not have a meth + s/c tune, and a s/c only tune. When I finally get ready to do this, I'll probably have Shiv tune it, if he's willing.
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      08-05-2012, 10:53 PM   #22
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Particularly since at least a couple have had blown motors
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