BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board
 
OneEighty
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-16-2005, 01:21 AM   #1
Xens
Eh
15

 
Xens's Avatar
 
Drives: Is Turbo'd
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Bay Area, CA


Posts: 653
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2006 330i  [0.00]
M5 manual only in America, I don't get it?

Just read edmunds' first drive of the new M5 and they said that a manual M5 will come later next year but will only be offered in USA. Now why is this? I thought more European people drive manuals? And it is us Americans that stick to autos? I thought it was weird when I found out that currently M5 can only be paired with SMG, but now apparently only USA wants manuals?
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 01:25 AM   #2
ward
Major General
69

 
Drives: F
Join Date: May 2005
Location: T


Posts: 6,162
iTrader: (0)

the euros look up to F1, and embrace the SMG technology
while we embrace nascar (uuughhh) and our stick shifting ways

the us was the only market to complain about the SMG and no "real" manual
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 02:05 AM   #3
Xens
Eh
15

 
Xens's Avatar
 
Drives: Is Turbo'd
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Bay Area, CA


Posts: 653
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2006 330i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ward
the euros look up to F1, and embrace the SMG technology
while we embrace nascar (uuughhh) and our stick shifting ways

the us was the only market to complain about the SMG and no "real" manual
Of course, why would I want a computer to press the clutch for me? If I wanted an auto I'd just buy a smooth traditional auto.

Oh .......... I get it. I feel pretty ignorant, but honestly, I'm not into manuals for the speed, it's just fun to press the clutch and row the shifter. Put some paddles behind the steering wheel and I'd take the step over SMG for the smoothness.

Okay I'm not getting anywhere.
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 03:53 AM   #4
maq
Lieutenant
United_States
6

 
Drives: MTA Monthly Pass
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC


Posts: 470
iTrader: (0)

It's the same reason why BMW doesn't sell the 1-series and big engined wagons here -- the US market is extremely conservative, and BMW NA is extremely protective about its brand image.

The M5 has always had a manual gearbox in the past 20 years, so the buyers expect one in the new M5 and BMW NA certainly doesn't want to destroy that image of the M5's.

Europeans always want the lastest in technology and design, they buy cars for the surprises. Whereas here in the US, people want "the best" and they buy cars to satisfiy their expectations.
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 04:02 AM   #5
maq
Lieutenant
United_States
6

 
Drives: MTA Monthly Pass
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC


Posts: 470
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xens
I thought more European people drive manuals? And it is us Americans that stick to autos?
That's true to some extend.

Because the majority of cars sold are autos, in peoples mind stick = sporty. So a sports car, especially an expensive one gotta have a manual gearbox. Otherwise it ain't no sports car.
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 04:29 AM   #6
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Netherlands
80

 
Robin_NL's Avatar
 
Drives: AW 1M , Assetto Corsa
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe


Posts: 4,692
iTrader: (0)

Well, an SMG is an electronically operated(clutch) MANUAL gearbox. it is NOT an automatic box. Having had an E46 M3 6 speed manual an testdriven a E36 and E46 M3 wth SMG 1 en SMG 2 and the M3 CSL, I must say, when gotten used to it irl it wouldn't get any better than SMG, so fast(downshifting e.g.) without shiftlock to the rearwheels, just excellent.
But to play(drift) with a car, I 'd prefer manual 6 speed. And the price for SMG was rather high...

I forgot Ferrari has the 'SMG' system too as an option(or you choose manual) F430, best sportscar at the moment by far. IMHO
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 08:33 AM   #7
MCS
e90 newbie
9

 
Drives: 2006 330i
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Northern NJ


Posts: 440
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2006 330i  [0.00]
Robin hood is correct - SMG is an electronically controlled Manual gearbox that can shift faster than any manual. There's no torque converter as on the automatics/steptronic. The newest M5 has the generation 3 SMG that is the fastest yet.

US M5 owners and owners to-be in the states demanded the manual, so BMW catered to the largest market by providing one. Take a look at the M5 boards.
__________________
E90 TiAg 330i ZSP, ZPP, ZCW 6sd Manual, Nav & Satellite (for Stern!), Black leather w/ Poplar
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 10:03 AM   #8
ward
Major General
69

 
Drives: F
Join Date: May 2005
Location: T


Posts: 6,162
iTrader: (0)

I agree with you Xens,

I just like to row the gears too, it's not really about speed it's about control
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 10:07 AM   #9
Socom
BMWCCA since '03
United_States
68

 
Drives: 2015 435i
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Atl.


Posts: 5,310
iTrader: (0)

One other thing..the Manual for the M5's sold in the US will be 6 spd. Besides, BMW's have enough stuff to go wrong on them, no need to spend $100k and wait for the SMG pump to fail in 15k miles.
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 10:36 AM   #10
scottz5
Lieutenant Colonel
33

 
Drives: 13 F10 535xi & 11.75 E93 M3
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Earth


Posts: 1,730
iTrader: (0)

I know two people that had money down on the M5, but once they found out it was smg only they got their money back. Many people here dislike SMG
__________________
13 F10 535xi JB/B working on it
11.75 E93 M3 MR/Black Stock (wifey)
11 F10 535i AW/CB Mods Gone
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 01:19 PM   #11
Xens
Eh
15

 
Xens's Avatar
 
Drives: Is Turbo'd
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Bay Area, CA


Posts: 653
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2006 330i  [0.00]
I know SMG is essentially a manual with a clutch and everything, but take away clutching and gear-rowing action and the entire experience is crippled. Honestly how many people buy a manual tranny daily driver (excluding those that uses a manual car exclusively for the track) for performance? Most of the time you can't get that performance out on public roads, so with that out, all that's left is the fact that you get to have some fun pressing the third pedal repeatedly and rowing that little stick from gate to gate.

I don't hate SMG, I'm sure it has wonderful performance and is a marvelous piece of engineering, but I fail to see the point of it. F1 drivers NEED them because they are travelling at such high speeds they need their ease to concentrate on cornering and the performance because, well duh!

Jeremy Clarkson put it best: "Look at me! I've got one of them gearboxes from Michael Schumaker!"

Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 01:29 PM   #12
Squawks
One of my two dachshunds:
United_States
14

 
Squawks's Avatar
 
Drives: B6 A4 3.0 Quattro
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ithaca, NY


Posts: 663
iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to Squawks
Where's the loss of control in SMG? No clutch-slipping? Who does that these days?

Besides, you can force the SMG to stay in whichever gear you'd like, unlike the automatic. You can even burn up your engine just like you would on a manual with SMG.

But of course, some people don't mind the rowing...or at least they'd rather row with an extra $2,000 in their wallets.
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 01:36 PM   #13
Xens
Eh
15

 
Xens's Avatar
 
Drives: Is Turbo'd
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Bay Area, CA


Posts: 653
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2006 330i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squawks
Where's the loss of control in SMG? No clutch-slipping? Who does that these days?

Besides, you can force the SMG to stay in whichever gear you'd like, unlike the automatic. You can even burn up your engine just like you would on a manual with SMG.

But of course, some people don't mind the rowing...or at least they'd rather row with an extra $2,000 in their wallets.
Not about control, not about performance, not about money. It's just about pressing the clutch and rowing the gears trying to get a perfect shift every time. That's the only thing I thought was fun before I ever even drove a manual, heck before I ever even drove a car. I used to sit in my friend's car pressing the clutch rowing the shifter without a key in the ignition, I thought it was fun and I could do it sitting there in the sun like an idiot for quite a while.
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 04:29 PM   #14
Squawks
One of my two dachshunds:
United_States
14

 
Squawks's Avatar
 
Drives: B6 A4 3.0 Quattro
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ithaca, NY


Posts: 663
iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to Squawks
Maybe they should pull off an SMG tranny WITH the clutch - so that people who want to enable the traditional manual method can...or if they want the true-SMG type, they can disable the clutch and use it as a footrest.

I'm going to patent that idea.
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 06:11 PM   #15
Xens
Eh
15

 
Xens's Avatar
 
Drives: Is Turbo'd
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Bay Area, CA


Posts: 653
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2006 330i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squawks
Maybe they should pull off an SMG tranny WITH the clutch - so that people who want to enable the traditional manual method can...or if they want the true-SMG type, they can disable the clutch and use it as a footrest.

I'm going to patent that idea.
Or, they can just keep the manual alive so people can choose whether they want SMG or manual.

I'm glad they are offering manual in USA for this M5, but from the looks of it this was an marketing after-thought, and it looks like BMW is looking to drop the manual tranny on their M models and eventually all models. Therefore by the time I can afford an M5 it will probably be SMG8 only or something like that, makes me sad to think about that. But who knows? Maybe I'll prefer SMG by then.
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 06:39 PM   #16
ward
Major General
69

 
Drives: F
Join Date: May 2005
Location: T


Posts: 6,162
iTrader: (0)

as long as they keep improving SMG it may eventualy provide an acceptable transmission option
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 06:50 PM   #17
Squawks
One of my two dachshunds:
United_States
14

 
Squawks's Avatar
 
Drives: B6 A4 3.0 Quattro
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ithaca, NY


Posts: 663
iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to Squawks
I am seeing more and more manual die-hards going for the SMG, despite the technology still in its infancy.
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 11:28 PM   #18
Xens
Eh
15

 
Xens's Avatar
 
Drives: Is Turbo'd
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Bay Area, CA


Posts: 653
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2006 330i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squawks
I am seeing more and more manual die-hards going for the SMG, despite the technology still in its infancy.
Quite a few "die-hards" are all about performance, therefore SMG provides a much better experience, eliminating stress in traffic while providing no loss in power from engine to transmission. I'm not a "die-hard", I just like to play with the clutch and shifter. One day I'll have to accept new technologies too, I just hope they will be able to give me something to play with.

I was just genuinely surprised that nobody was on this side of the argument, that liking manuals isn't always about performance.
Appreciate 0
      11-16-2005, 11:40 PM   #19
Bimmerista
Major General
Canada
63

 
Bimmerista's Avatar
 
Drives: superstock
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada


Posts: 5,710
iTrader: (0)

I think that it is precisely because in Europe manuals have been more popular that they have a predilection for SMG.

As Euros are used to and appreciate manuals, a much larger percentage of them will be tempted and convinced by the clutchless aspect of the SMG - it is being offered to them (packaging) as a manual without a clutch.


In NA, those of us who want manuals (we know who we are) have already made a choice NOT to get auto (which is default here as it were). The way the packaging of the SMG here is would force us to make a choice of giving in to a kind of automatic. The message here, that the SMG is a manual without a clutch is not clear, the sales guys mutter ''Oh yeah it is like an automatic but you can really shift on your own''....they do not have a clear positioning.

So since the manual driver in Europe is not, by definition, necessarily an enthusiast (even those who get the M5), but rather someone who drove manuals all their lives and appreciates them (nothing more) the Smg is an easier sell there. Here, we enthusiast define ourselves in part by the fact that we are ''hard core'' because we are mannual drivers and are therefore more conservative/resistant to change. I know that I am generalizing and that there are enthusiasts who do not drive manual etc. but you get my gist.
Appreciate 0
      11-17-2005, 02:58 AM   #20
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Netherlands
80

 
Robin_NL's Avatar
 
Drives: AW 1M , Assetto Corsa
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe


Posts: 4,692
iTrader: (0)



LOL, good post. imo the way it is here. With SMG you can have dragstrip times(not my hobby anyway : ) which are faster than 99% of pro racecar drivers can achieve with manual transmissions. And downshifting as fast as hell.

And the most modern hi tech and fast(which is very important for performance cars like BMW)way to shift is this way: SMG or what they call it at Ferrari.
Appreciate 0
      11-17-2005, 03:16 AM   #21
Xens
Eh
15

 
Xens's Avatar
 
Drives: Is Turbo'd
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Bay Area, CA


Posts: 653
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2006 330i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmerista
I think that it is precisely because in Europe manuals have been more popular that they have a predilection for SMG.

As Euros are used to and appreciate manuals, a much larger percentage of them will be tempted and convinced by the clutchless aspect of the SMG - it is being offered to them (packaging) as a manual without a clutch.


In NA, those of us who want manuals (we know who we are) have already made a choice NOT to get auto (which is default here as it were). The way the packaging of the SMG here is would force us to make a choice of giving in to a kind of automatic. The message here, that the SMG is a manual without a clutch is not clear, the sales guys mutter ''Oh yeah it is like an automatic but you can really shift on your own''....they do not have a clear positioning.

So since the manual driver in Europe is not, by definition, necessarily an enthusiast (even those who get the M5), but rather someone who drove manuals all their lives and appreciates them (nothing more) the Smg is an easier sell there. Here, we enthusiast define ourselves in part by the fact that we are ''hard core'' because we are mannual drivers and are therefore more conservative/resistant to change. I know that I am generalizing and that there are enthusiasts who do not drive manual etc. but you get my gist.
That makes a lot of sense, thanks for the explanation.

I have been going off-topic, thanks for bringing things back onto my original question.
Appreciate 0
      11-17-2005, 03:53 AM   #22
maq
Lieutenant
United_States
6

 
Drives: MTA Monthly Pass
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC


Posts: 470
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squawks
Maybe they should pull off an SMG tranny WITH the clutch - so that people who want to enable the traditional manual method can...or if they want the true-SMG type, they can disable the clutch and use it as a footrest.

I'm going to patent that idea.
F1 cars used to have "semi manual" 'boxes like that, and IIRC a lot of old racing squential boxes worked in a similar fashion. It was difficult to operate even for racing drivers. The technology lived until late 90's, when the clutchless manual gearboxes were born.

I also agree that SMG's failure in America is a marketing mistake.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:43 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST