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      11-11-2012, 12:13 AM   #45
AshyLarryMP
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Times are changing

I envision a future in which it will be much harder to enjoy driving fast on the streets. In high density population areas there are just too many people on the road to drive fast. Perhaps someday law enforcement will use automated speeding ticket traps on the freeway, making it impossible to speed. Maybe the future will look similar to the movie "The Minority Report" where public transportation and civilian cars are on fixed rails liked trains and are piloted by computer programs. Someday NA gasoline engines will be a thing of the past and the quickest cars will be electric. This may be the best and last time to enjoy such a brilliantly engineered high quality V8 gas guzzler. These were some of the ideas that influenced me to pull the trigger on my e92 zcp and ditch my 2002 Subaru Forester. It's the first really nice thing I've ever owned and I have no regrets. Originally I thought I would eventually sell the car when the mileage got high, but now I think I might keep it forever.
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      11-11-2012, 05:54 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhabs View Post
The fact that the E9x M3 is still winning comparison tests (Automobile mag the latest) vs its direct sedan/coupe rivals 5 years after its introduction and right before the next generation is released pretty much says it all. Would not be terribly surprised if the E9x will be billed as the more fun/engaging car to drive vs the F8x.
It will be. Do you really think BMW decided to move to a turbocharged I-6 because that was really "better" than a high-revving V8? Of course not. They're doing it because of financial realities and fuel economy standards. Make zero mistake.
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      11-11-2012, 06:05 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
What makes you say that about the E36? I would have thought it's the most reliable, much more so than the E46.

Also one of the reasons I picked the E92 M3 is because it's proved itself to be pretty reliable. That was a big factor in me picking this car.
I agree. The E46 is much more unreliable.
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      11-11-2012, 06:16 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
I have never been a fan of turbo cars despite the prodigious amounts of torque that can be easily produced. Sure I want a certain absolute amount of speed capability, but my enjoyment of driving truly comes from how my mind and body interface with the car. Does the car, in all its aspects feel wired in to my own nervous system?

There is an inherent disconnect with turbo cars. The output of the motor just isn't totally in sync with what the driver does. It's like watching a movie where the sound is just off ever so slightly from the movement of the actors lips.

The current M3 V8 is so responsive and so linear. The baritone trumpeting of the eight cylinders with their own throttle body is an auditory orgasm for any car enthusiast. It is simply a feast for the senses.

I will always favor the highly tuned NA motor for the more enjoyable subjective driving experience, as well as for the appreciation of the engineering that went into it.
Agree 100%
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      11-11-2012, 06:20 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phrozen06 View Post
I agree. The E46 is much more unreliable.
E46M has its fair share of problems. But, I test drove a black 2003 6mt with 18,000 miles on it a long time ago...closest I'd ever get to a brand new one. That car was easily the most fantastic I'd ever climbed behind the wheel of. Part of me regrets not buying it.
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      11-11-2012, 06:21 AM   #50
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the key for the new M3 is to have a serious increase in off the line speeds. it must be around 3-7 or better. and whatever it takes to do that then bmw should take those steps.
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      11-11-2012, 11:51 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Interior falls apart, rear subframe issues, cooling system failures...the usual modern BMW stuff. The difference with the E46 M3 is that it does not seem AS prone to those failures. Although SMG E46s aren't THAT much better and then add in the VANOS issues.

Its all relative. I think the M3 has been one of the most reliable BMWs over the past 2 decades.
Wasn't aware of E36 subframe issues. But either way, I'd still bet on an E36 vs an E46

Catastrophic VANOS failure
Subframe issues

Just too big of issues to deal with for me personally. Otherwise, I'd have an E46 M3 Imola Red on Black or Cinnamon in my garage. When someone figures out the VANOS tabs issues, give me a call

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amri215 View Post
This is post is completely inaccuarte, there is no way to tell for sure that "all" subsequent M3s other than the e30 will or will not be classics, unless you can predict the future.

As for the e9x M3, guess you have not seen Motortrend's latest prediction.

http://wot.motortrend.com/top-10-new...cs-275841.html

It makes sense the e9x would be a classic down the line, all due to its fabled V8.
And the E46 had the last I6 N/A engine. So what? For the most part, they are under $20k now. All M3's after the E30 have been mass produced cars. Not saying they aren't special in their own way though.

What I'm saying is that clean M3's (actually any M car) that has been well maintained will go for a premium. Not counting the ones that have under 10k, they can be had for reasonable money.

Take the E39 M5 for example, what many people consider the BEST 4 door sedan ever made. They can be had for 20 grand as well, but are considered classics!
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      11-11-2012, 12:10 PM   #52
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I'll save the E36 vs E46 reliability debate for a different thread.

A clean, low mileage 05/06 E46 M3 still can go for over $30k. It think what you are starting to see is a lot of E46 M3s (mostly silver) are getting beat on and consumed at the track. I'm willing to bet that in 3-4 years you'll see good condition E46 M3s (coupe, 6MT, no sunroof) command a significant premium. And eventually become the highly desired and rare driver's car that the E30 M3 is.

You can't really look at a beat up convertible SMG. I can go get one for about $10k right now. I can also get a worn out E30 M3 for $10k. I don't think the E36 M3 will ever command a premium except for the couple of LTWs.
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      11-12-2012, 05:14 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Wasn't aware of E36 subframe issues. But either way, I'd still bet on an E36 vs an E46

Catastrophic VANOS failure
Subframe issues

Just too big of issues to deal with for me personally. Otherwise, I'd have an E46 M3 Imola Red on Black or Cinnamon in my garage. When someone figures out the VANOS tabs issues, give me a call
VANOS:
Bolts from the Z4M.
VANOS exhaust hub from dr vanos.

Subframe:
BMW structural foam BEFORE failure. $400, 1 hour of labor.

Done.

Not a single instance of failure with either.
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      11-12-2012, 05:17 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by av2 View Post
The BMW M team was all about high revving motors and had followed Ferrari's V8 very closely. Maybe the pressure from AMG's E63 (V8 bi-turbo) and Audi's RS6 (V10 bi-turbo) were just too much for the M team to beat with the new M5 if it was kept NA. The decision to turbo charge the M5 made it's way to the new M3 as well.

The E92 M3's V8 is not quite as great as Ferrari's V8, but it's damn close.
I'd say better, purely because you can actually drive it a real number of miles!
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      11-12-2012, 05:55 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseygirl View Post
the key for the new M3 is to have a serious increase in off the line speeds. it must be around 3-7 or better. and whatever it takes to do that then bmw should take those steps.
Whatever it takes?? In that case the next M3 should be all-wheel drive. People seem to forget that as good as it is, the M3 still represents a compromise with regards to pure performance because it is still a practical transport vehicle. The perfect layout for maximum overall performance is mid-engine, RWD. This will yield perfect steering, perfect weight distribution, minimal driveline power loss, weight over the drive wheels for traction. However, you can only carry two people and have minimal space for baggage.

For a vehicle that gives you practical transport abilities, there is very little out there that can match an M3 in all its parameters. Sure, if you gave it AWD, it would launch faster off the line, but it would weigh about 200lbs more and the steering feel/responsiveness would be dulled.

The next gen M3 is slated to have 255/275 tires. This will not be enough to deal with the added torque. The car should have 295/305 in the rear. Of course if you do this and keep the front tires narrow, you get understeer. If you widen the front tires, you get tramlining, dulled steering responsiveness, more noise etc, etc, etc.

Bottom line....choose your evil that you are willing to live with. There is only so much you can do in a vehicle designed for practical transportation.
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Last edited by LarThaL; 11-12-2012 at 06:15 AM.
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      11-12-2012, 08:01 AM   #56
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I would be really disappointed if the next M3 is simply a shrunken version of my F10 M5. If they simply slap a 3.5 straight 6 with twin turbo and call it a day, it would be underwhelming. I am expecting some new goodies like a tri-turbo setup or something innovative to help eliminate turbo lag. Lag while minimal, is still present in the M5. For a large executive sedan like the M5, it's still within tolerable limit, but my sense is that buyers would be a lot less forgiving when it comes to the M3. Somehow, my hopes are not high now as BMW seems to be more interested in cost cutting these days.
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