BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
Steve Thomas BMW
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-03-2012, 02:47 PM   #177
m33
Banned
 
m33's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 VT650 MCB Individual
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: CT

Posts: 2,697
iTrader: (5)

Here is some depth to power delivery and how and where its effective, These are the RPM drops in various gears for 6MT and DCT assuming factory final drive ratio:

6MT with 8400 RPM shifting ("normal" M3)
1st: 1500-8400
2nd: 4905-8400
3rd: 5610-8400
4th: 6331-8400
5th: 7045-8400
6th: 7327-8400

6MT with 8100 RPM shifting ("AA redline" M3)
1st: 1500-8100
2nd: 4730-8100
3rd: 5410-8100
4th: 6105-8100
5th: 6793-8100
6th: 7065-8100

DCT with 8400 RPM shifting ("normal" M3)
1st: 1500-8400
2nd: 5158-8400
3rd: 6167-8400
4th: 6447-8400
5th: 6936-8400
6th: 7296-8400
7th: 6978-8400

DCT with 8100 RPM shifting ("AA redline" M3)
1st: 1500-8100
2nd: 4972-8100
3rd: 5948-8100
4th: 6312-8100
5th: 6687-8100
6th: 7035-8100
7th: 6729-8100
m33 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 02:49 PM   #178
Sal@Evolve
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Drives: Slow
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Luton, Bedfordshire

Posts: 1,063
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
Sal, thanks for posting, I knew it would only be a matter of time before you did.

Currently there are no independent dyno's or customer feedback on your kit, so to be fair I can't comment on your system, and all of what you say may very well be true, if so let's see it. Based on what many of your customers say about you and your products, I'm sure your kit will be a good choice, looking forward to some customer feedback / results and congrats on the kit, developing a system that is reliable and satisfies the consumer is no easy task.
Thanks for your comments.

It's only a matter of time until you do see it.

There have been some independent reviews of the drive of our demo car and the drag strip results with poor traction. It certainly does perform.
Our first production kits are being delivered to the US in 5-6 weeks and one of the dealers is fitting a pre production version in a few weeks.
Lots of information to come.
Sal@Evolve is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 03:30 PM   #179
DLSJ5
Brigadier General
 
DLSJ5's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E92 DCT M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CA

Posts: 3,447
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to DLSJ5
Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Here is some depth to power delivery and how and where its effective, These are the RPM drops in various gears for 6MT and DCT assuming factory final drive ratio:

6MT with 8400 RPM shifting ("normal" M3)
1st: 1500-8400
2nd: 4905-8400
3rd: 5610-8400
4th: 6331-8400
5th: 7045-8400
6th: 7327-8400

6MT with 8100 RPM shifting ("AA redline" M3)
1st: 1500-8100
2nd: 4730-8100
3rd: 5410-8100
4th: 6105-8100
5th: 6793-8100
6th: 7065-8100

DCT with 8400 RPM shifting ("normal" M3)
1st: 1500-8400
2nd: 5158-8400
3rd: 6167-8400
4th: 6447-8400
5th: 6936-8400
6th: 7296-8400
7th: 6978-8400

DCT with 8100 RPM shifting ("AA redline" M3)
1st: 1500-8100
2nd: 4972-8100
3rd: 5948-8100
4th: 6312-8100
5th: 6687-8100
6th: 7035-8100
7th: 6729-8100
Interesting the above formula for the lower gears don't quite match what I thought the approximate rpm level was after the shift but I'd didn't go by formulas, which are fine, but rather I went by actual WOT runs on my car and others, as well as speedo/tach vids, but to be fair, not standard M3's, and mainly SC'd cars like these and all DCT as well -







The driver started in 3rd gear on this.

__________________
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ @ 7.2psi - 94 octane / Water meth
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi
DLSJ5 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 03:31 PM   #180
DLSJ5
Brigadier General
 
DLSJ5's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E92 DCT M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CA

Posts: 3,447
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to DLSJ5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Thanks for your comments.

It's only a matter of time until you do see it.

There have been some independent reviews of the drive of our demo car and the drag strip results with poor traction. It certainly does perform.
Our first production kits are being delivered to the US in 5-6 weeks and one of the dealers is fitting a pre production version in a few weeks.
Lots of information to come.
Sounds good Sal.
__________________
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ @ 7.2psi - 94 octane / Water meth
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi
DLSJ5 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 03:41 PM   #181
VCMpower
Banned
 
Drives: 2010 Dakar, 2013 Fire Orange
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Victoria B.C.

Posts: 941
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superfly_M3 View Post
Same here, lets move on.
VCMpower is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 03:43 PM   #182
VCMpower
Banned
 
Drives: 2010 Dakar, 2013 Fire Orange
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Victoria B.C.

Posts: 941
iTrader: (0)

raises all around!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
If he his still confused we did our job.
VCMpower is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 03:52 PM   #183
VCMpower
Banned
 
Drives: 2010 Dakar, 2013 Fire Orange
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Victoria B.C.

Posts: 941
iTrader: (0)

great read! I look forward to hearing more of your knowledgeable opinions on the HKS 8555 when you see more of them on the S65.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Very cute. Group Sex... haha

Anyway, just so that nothing is confused further here I'd just like to point something out.

The Rotrex C38-91 blower delivers 1134CFM adjusted to the same standards as which the Vortech is showing 1150CFM (SAEJ1723). So there is nothing between them and depending on how the blowers are geared (pulley size) you can make that CFM at various points in the RPM range.
The peak airflow is extremely similar on both.

That's from studying the compressor maps.

How do they actually stack up against each other on the same platform?

Over 6000rpm, very very similar! With the Rotrex you can clearly see this from the graphs we have posted that the HP continues to rise to the rpm limiter (8300rpm). No tailing off, no letting up. It's got the airflow..... well, if it didn't we would have not used it! Would make absolutely no sense as we have no allegiances to Rotrex!

The Vortech differs in it's power delivery mainly below 6000rpm WOT but not by a huge amount. If we are aiming both blowers to make around 6.5-7 PSi there is a difference but around 1-1.2 PSi. You see this on the HKS vs Vortech graphs and there is a difference in midrange HP/Torque.

The main difference comes under part load conditions and throttle response. This is where the much faster spinning Rotrex shows a significant improvement over the Vortech and it makes complete sense if you study the compressor maps and think about efficiency.
However, you cannot have your cake and eat it if this is happening.

What would the Rotrex also be also doing at the same time which the Vortech isn't at these lower-mid rpms ?
Surely there must be a trade off? If it's able to produce more torque (therefore boost) at lower - mid rpm's it's not without a compromise.
What could that be?
It's producing more heat at it's obviously compressing the air more. This means you have to design a cooling system which is even more efficient than the norm. This adds costs. This adds more work in design time and testing.

At the higher rpm's the amount of heat produced is around the same as expected as both blowers have similar airflow output.

You can have excellent throttle response and extremely good torque throughout the entire RPM range and have the top end power to match BUT it requires a certain amount of additional engineering and therefore cost.

There is a way to make the Vortech produce the same torque low-mid rpm and under partial load with the same top end power it's currently producing on kits but the costs involved and the size of the intercooler core required are not something anyone would entertain.

A Rotrex C38-91 delivers a fair bit more airflow than the HKS 8550. You cannot compare these two blowers.

Now, how do we know all of this? We have used Vortech on an engine that requires even more airflow to get results than the S65 which is the S62. We know the differences from a practical stand point.
All the above is not from just some theoretical stand point but from actual real world testing (it actually costs very little to do once you are into a full blown project). We can use a Vortech if we want to and make the first production air to air intercooled Vortech setup in the world using the same plenum and intercooler.

We are tried to make a system where you can have the best of all worlds. I'm glad to say, we achieved it.

If people still insist on blindly insisting that the Rotrex cannot match the airflow of the V3Si even then.... well, we might just make that flat plate bracket which was designed a long time ago into production with a new intake system for those individuals...
Doesn't bother us other than having to make a certain quantity of them which is no big deal.

Should also point out that both blower types from actual experience have a fair bit more head room! Not that it should even be considered to be used on a stock engine!

I hope the above shows a little more balance in the comparison between the two and actually for once highlighting the differences which make sense with respect to the compressor maps issued by both companies.
VCMpower is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 04:12 PM   #184
Sal@Evolve
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Drives: Slow
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Luton, Bedfordshire

Posts: 1,063
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VCMpower View Post
great read! I look forward to hearing more of your knowledgeable opinions on the HKS 8555 when you see more of them on the S65.
Thanks.

Looking at the compressor map of the 8555 it shows a max CFM of 953 CFM or 27 m(3)/Min. However, it doesn't show under what conditions this is tested so it's hard to compare to any of the others. If conditions are similar it's about 10% under the peak CFM numbers of the V3Si and C38-91.
Spun to around 100,000 rpm it should deliver improved top end power over the smaller 8550 and even more midrange torque.
That's if you can get hold of these blowers!
Sal@Evolve is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 04:22 PM   #185
VCMpower
Banned
 
Drives: 2010 Dakar, 2013 Fire Orange
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Victoria B.C.

Posts: 941
iTrader: (0)

That C38-91 is a special unit, works great on so many engines. I have the 8555 (and some other updates) sitting on my tool box ready to go! I am looking forward to it. Thanks for your input Sal. BTW I can't help but look at your SC setup over and over, so tight!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Thanks.

Looking at the compressor map of the 8555 it shows a max CFM of 953 CFM or 27 m(3)/Min. However, it doesn't show under what conditions this is tested so it's hard to compare to any of the others. If conditions are similar it's about 10% under the peak CFM numbers of the V3Si and C38-91.
Spun to around 100,000 rpm it should deliver improved top end power over the smaller 8550 and even more midrange torque.
That's if you can get hold of these blowers!
VCMpower is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 04:26 PM   #186
Donbona
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Donbona's Avatar
 
Drives: E93 M3 DCT 2008
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London UK

Posts: 1,668
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post


So when you go WOT on the street, you're not above 6800RPM 97% of the time?
I reserve the right to remain silent as I may lose my drivers license
__________________
M3 E93 DCT, Space Grey,BC HB29 Forged Deep Concave Wheels, Ericsson Amuse F/R Bumper, Evolve Full Exhaust System, INTRAX Coilovers, STOPTECH BBK, Performance Steering Wheel,Custom Red/Black Leather Seats,///M3 ||Bimmerpost M3 Car Of The Month May - 2010SOLD
2010 R35 GTR
Donbona is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 05:18 PM   #187
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 435I M-sport
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Miami Fl

Posts: 3,429
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
Well said, I like Andrew too, and when things are posted on the internat, rather than having a face to face discussion, things can be misintepreted and people get defensive at times, including me. I disagree with him in so many ways about the S65, lol, but he's still a cool dude, we're talking cars here not politics, lol.

THis ..
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 05:25 PM   #188
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 435I M-sport
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Miami Fl

Posts: 3,429
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Thanks.

Looking at the compressor map of the 8555 it shows a max CFM of 953 CFM or 27 m(3)/Min. However, it doesn't show under what conditions this is tested so it's hard to compare to any of the others. If conditions are similar it's about 10% under the peak CFM numbers of the V3Si and C38-91.
Spun to around 100,000 rpm it should deliver improved top end power over the smaller 8550 and even more midrange torque.
That's if you can get hold of these blowers!
We got a couple in the oven Sal 10psi gave us around 560 whp on a stock engine and more midrange as well. A little less boost and a few more things to change tuning wise and it should be a nice little upgrade.

If you remember our blue car with the built engine it put down the same hp as our stock engine with the same blower and a tiny bit more boost. The compression is little to low for the rotrex blower to handle and a larger one will be needed to get those high hp numbers we want to see.
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 05:29 PM   #189
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 435I M-sport
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Miami Fl

Posts: 3,429
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post

Thats pretty cool! They did mention air to air is proven to be better than air to water intercooling
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 05:38 PM   #190
VCMpower
Banned
 
Drives: 2010 Dakar, 2013 Fire Orange
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Victoria B.C.

Posts: 941
iTrader: (0)

Who needs midrange? ouch. 135 style midrange Andrew? KIDDING,
I am excited!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
We got a couple in the oven Sal 10psi gave us around 560 whp on a stock engine and more midrange as well. A little less boost and a few more things to change tuning wise and it should be a nice little upgrade.

If you remember our blue car with the built engine it put down the same hp as our stock engine with the same blower and a tiny bit more boost. The compression is little to low for the rotrex blower to handle and a larger one will be needed to get those high hp numbers we want to see.
VCMpower is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 05:45 PM   #191
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 435I M-sport
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Miami Fl

Posts: 3,429
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VCMpower View Post
Who needs midrange? ouch. 135 style midrange Andrew? KIDDING,
I am excited!

You know my car makes more midrange than a supercharged m3 but the m3 feels like a uncontrollable monster on street tires in comparison. Maybe ill get one with my christmas bonus

They took the built engine car our for some 60-130's and couldn't get one good run due to tire spin. I cant even imagine what they 700+whp cars feel like.
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 06:00 PM   #192
VCMpower
Banned
 
Drives: 2010 Dakar, 2013 Fire Orange
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Victoria B.C.

Posts: 941
iTrader: (0)

Yep, I have trained myself to forget the truck loads of torque my 335 had It is not a bad tradeoff having a Sc'd M3. Those 60-130 runs would have been a blast! Who drove?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
You know my car makes more midrange than a supercharged m3 but the m3 feels like a uncontrollable monster on street tires in comparison. Maybe ill get one with my christmas bonus

They took the built engine car our for some 60-130's and couldn't get one good run due to tire spin. I cant even imagine what they 700+whp cars feel like.
VCMpower is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 06:41 PM   #193
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 435I M-sport
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Miami Fl

Posts: 3,429
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VCMpower View Post
Yep, I have trained myself to forget the truck loads of torque my 335 had It is not a bad tradeoff having a Sc'd M3. Those 60-130 runs would have been a blast! Who drove?
Scrap did. The car has some 20 inch rims on it with some low profile Hankook v12's. No bueno

Id trade for the v8 sound anyday.
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 06:49 PM   #194
m33
Banned
 
m33's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 VT650 MCB Individual
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: CT

Posts: 2,697
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke
Thats pretty cool! They did mention air to air is proven to be better than air to water intercooling
They sure did. And these two videos show the true superiority of air-to-air as well. Side-by-side results, nothing is more fair comparison that that Andrew.



m33 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 07:00 PM   #195
DLSJ5
Brigadier General
 
DLSJ5's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E92 DCT M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CA

Posts: 3,447
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to DLSJ5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
We got a couple in the oven Sal 10psi gave us around 560 whp on a stock engine and more midrange as well. A little less boost and a few more things to change tuning wise and it should be a nice little upgrade.

If you remember our blue car with the built engine it put down the same hp as our stock engine with the same blower and a tiny bit more boost. The compression is little to low for the rotrex blower to handle and a larger one will be needed to get those high hp numbers we want to see.
Andrew, what blower is on the Stage 3 car? What CR are you guys running? Did you sleeve the motor? You ran 10psi on the stock motor and made some good power, what psi are you running on the built motor?
__________________
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ @ 7.2psi - 94 octane / Water meth
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi
DLSJ5 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 07:02 PM   #196
DLSJ5
Brigadier General
 
DLSJ5's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E92 DCT M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CA

Posts: 3,447
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to DLSJ5
Quote:
Originally Posted by VCMpower View Post
Yep, I have trained myself to forget the truck loads of torque my 335 had It is not a bad tradeoff having a Sc'd M3. Those 60-130 runs would have been a blast! Who drove?
Ahhhh, so you too are a former N54 owner, it all makes sense now! Do you guys have any 60-130 runs with your setups?
__________________
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ @ 7.2psi - 94 octane / Water meth
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi
DLSJ5 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 07:33 PM   #197
MStar
Banned
 
Drives: e92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Here and there

Posts: 290
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
I heard the 335 has tons of torque. How do you drive these things without crashing? Is it street legal?
You dont...crashed mine last year..
MStar is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2012, 07:37 PM   #198
MStar
Banned
 
Drives: e92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Here and there

Posts: 290
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
Sorry to hear. Looks like you got yourself a silver-lining though.
Yep it all worked out in the end..
MStar is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:20 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST