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      11-03-2012, 11:53 AM   #155
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      11-03-2012, 11:58 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Superfly ...

What your saying is understandable but really highly unlikely that some one would go in their pockets and pull out their hard earned money to support their passion and go out and purchase the most over priced supercharger kit available that delivers the least amount of power .... Step out the box and understand what I just said !

.......
I agree. Why would someone spend their money on a kit that costs more and outputs less, thats a no brainer. I never said anything to compare any kits in anyway. Don't know where you got that from.

Nice shopping cart. I bet that thing hauls ass.
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      11-03-2012, 12:07 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Superfly ...

What your saying is understandable but really highly unlikely that some one would go in their pockets and pull out their hard earned money to support their passion and go out and purchase the most over priced supercharger kit available that delivers the least amount of power .... Step out the box and understand what I just said !

That torque you speak of is nonsense and is not worth the money's !!! Bro ... Stay away from supercharging cars especially this platform and go buy yourself a torque monster to go pick up peanuts at your local A&P and you'll save a heap of money......

I can't believe I'm reading such nonsense .......
Agreed, and I was agreeing with many of his points and understood what he was saying with regards to them, even if some of them were somewhat irrelevant to what I was saying, but apparantely he does not have the ability to comprehend specifics, instead he takes what you say and spins into a discussion that is all over the place and generalizes. It is very difficult to get through to somebody on the points I was making when he makes absurd, flat out false comments like this -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superfly_M3 View Post
I don't think that people who supercharge their cars for the most part are concerned about the power the car makes at WOT at 6800. Most people are WOT below 6800 97% of the time on the street...
So when you go WOT on the street, you're not above 6800RPM 97% of the time? Apparantly he thinks he is still driving a 535I, his statements defy the facts, when you are at WOT, you are above 6800 RPM MOST of time, except if you start at much lower rpm, which most experienced M3 owners, who know how to drive this car, don't do. The best place is around 6000RPM or higher, after you shift once at WOT you're at ~6500/6800 the rest of the way, meaning that awesome low to midrange power and TQ, never comes into play after the first shift.

When you get comments like that it's difficult to continue the discussion. I'd love for one of them to show me a vid of a supercharged M3 going all out at WOT where they are not above 6800rpm, lmao, or enjoying their Supercharged M3 on the way to the store, or passing people on the street, and going only half throttle or as if they tap the gas, and say "oh my god that was incredible", as if that's exciting or one of the reasons they spent thousands on a kit.

It's always the same group who talk about this incredible TQ outside of the powerband on the S65 when rowing through the gears, either they don't own a Supercharged S65 M3, or they currently / used to own a 335I, 535I or 135I, or the blower they use does not make power in the sweet spot of the PB, where it counts going all out, shifting through each gear.
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      11-03-2012, 12:21 PM   #158
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Heck even in stock form the M's juicy spot is 6,500-8,400 Rpm range......
I personally Think Andrew @ Active is a cool dude and I understand the points he's trying to make but they are not gonna Fly in the Mod world !! Heck people change out intake filters and exhausts hoping to pick up ponies yet alone supercharging !

You want a little kick in your car while headed to Kinkos go with the cheapest most basic Kit Available with decent gains..
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      11-03-2012, 12:21 PM   #159
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Alright I re-track. "I don't think that people who supercharge their cars for the most part are concerned about the power the car makes at WOT at 6800" This comment was made not to say that people who buy SC kits ONLY (very important - ONLY) care about what happens above 6800. I implied that there are many more decisions why to purrchase a SC.

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      11-03-2012, 12:22 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superfly_M3 View Post
I agree. Why would someone spend their money on a kit that costs more and outputs less, thats a no brainer. I never said anything to compare any kits in anyway. Don't know where you got that from.

Nice shopping cart. I bet that thing hauls ass.
I agree as well, but that wasn't his main point, his point was that most people don't buy a supercharger for some of the reasons you stated, it's also a no brainer at WOT where the majority of the RPM powerband is on this car.
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      11-03-2012, 12:23 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superfly_M3 View Post
I'll right I re-track. "I don't think that people who supercharge their cars for the most part are concerned about the power the car makes at WOT at 6800" This comment was made not to say that people who buy SC kits ONLY (very important - ONLY) care about what happens above 6800. I implied that there are many more decisions why to purrchase a SC.
Okay, I can agree with that as well.
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      11-03-2012, 12:29 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
It's always the same group who talk about this incredible TQ outside of the powerband on the S65 when rowing through the gears, either they don't own a Supercharged S65 M3, or they currently / used to own a 335I, 535I or 135I, or the blower they use does not make power in the sweet spot of the PB, where it counts going all out, shifting through each gear.
There are no groups and you are twisting my words. I never mentioned anything about monter TQ number in the lower RPM - I said increased TQ and HP. I also said that people go WOT starting below 6800. Everyone here understands the powerband on the S65. Unfortunately not everyone spends most of their time in the 6800+ on the street.
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      11-03-2012, 12:29 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Heck even in stock form the M's juicy spot is 6,500-8,400 Rpm range......
I personally Think Andrew @ Active is a cool dude and I understand the points he's trying to make but they are not gonna Fly in the Mod world !! Heck people change out intake filters and exhausts hoping to pick up ponies yet alone supercharging !

You want a little kick in your car while headed to Kinkos go with the cheapest most basic Kit Available with decent gains..
Well said, I like Andrew too, and when things are posted on the internat, rather than having a face to face discussion, things can be misintepreted and people get defensive at times, including me. I disagree with him in so many ways about the S65, lol, but he's still a cool dude, we're talking cars here not politics, lol.
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      11-03-2012, 12:31 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superfly_M3 View Post
There are no groups and you are twisting my words. I never mentioned anything about monter TQ number in the lower RPM - I said increased TQ and HP. I also said that people go WOT starting below 6800. Everyone here understands the powerband on the S65. Unfortunately not everyone spends most of their time in the 6800+ on the street.
Fair enough, I agree it can be frustrating when people put words in your mouth and twist things that you say. Let's move on, my apologies if I came off harsh at times.
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ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi
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      11-03-2012, 12:31 PM   #165
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Quote:
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You want a little kick in your car while headed to Kinkos go with the cheapest most basic Kit Available with decent gains..
Nice words.
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      11-03-2012, 12:35 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
Fair enough, I agree it can be frustrating when people put words in your mouth and twist things that you say. Let's move on, my apologies if I came off harsh at times.
Same here, lets move on.
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      11-03-2012, 12:42 PM   #167
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I wonder in the OP is still confused.
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      11-03-2012, 12:48 PM   #168
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And so it sex !!! Group sex anyone ???
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      11-03-2012, 01:33 PM   #169
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You guys got me all confused now,haha !
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      11-03-2012, 01:38 PM   #170
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Very cute. Group Sex... haha

Anyway, just so that nothing is confused further here I'd just like to point something out.

The Rotrex C38-91 blower delivers 1134CFM adjusted to the same standards as which the Vortech is showing 1150CFM (SAEJ1723). So there is nothing between them and depending on how the blowers are geared (pulley size) you can make that CFM at various points in the RPM range.
The peak airflow is extremely similar on both.

That's from studying the compressor maps.

How do they actually stack up against each other on the same platform?

Over 6000rpm, very very similar! With the Rotrex you can clearly see this from the graphs we have posted that the HP continues to rise to the rpm limiter (8300rpm). No tailing off, no letting up. It's got the airflow..... well, if it didn't we would have not used it! Would make absolutely no sense as we have no allegiances to Rotrex!

The Vortech differs in it's power delivery mainly below 6000rpm WOT but not by a huge amount. If we are aiming both blowers to make around 6.5-7 PSi there is a difference but around 1-1.2 PSi. You see this on the HKS vs Vortech graphs and there is a difference in midrange HP/Torque.

The main difference comes under part load conditions and throttle response. This is where the much faster spinning Rotrex shows a significant improvement over the Vortech and it makes complete sense if you study the compressor maps and think about efficiency.
However, you cannot have your cake and eat it if this is happening.

What would the Rotrex also be also doing at the same time which the Vortech isn't at these lower-mid rpms ?
Surely there must be a trade off? If it's able to produce more torque (therefore boost) at lower - mid rpm's it's not without a compromise.
What could that be?
It's producing more heat at it's obviously compressing the air more. This means you have to design a cooling system which is even more efficient than the norm. This adds costs. This adds more work in design time and testing.

At the higher rpm's the amount of heat produced is around the same as expected as both blowers have similar airflow output.

You can have excellent throttle response and extremely good torque throughout the entire RPM range and have the top end power to match BUT it requires a certain amount of additional engineering and therefore cost.

There is a way to make the Vortech produce the same torque low-mid rpm and under partial load with the same top end power it's currently producing on kits but the costs involved and the size of the intercooler core required are not something anyone would entertain.

A Rotrex C38-91 delivers a fair bit more airflow than the HKS 8550. You cannot compare these two blowers.

Now, how do we know all of this? We have used Vortech on an engine that requires even more airflow to get results than the S65 which is the S62. We know the differences from a practical stand point.
All the above is not from just some theoretical stand point but from actual real world testing (it actually costs very little to do once you are into a full blown project). We can use a Vortech if we want to and make the first production air to air intercooled Vortech setup in the world using the same plenum and intercooler.

We are tried to make a system where you can have the best of all worlds. I'm glad to say, we achieved it.

If people still insist on blindly insisting that the Rotrex cannot match the airflow of the V3Si even then.... well, we might just make that flat plate bracket which was designed a long time ago into production with a new intake system for those individuals...
Doesn't bother us other than having to make a certain quantity of them which is no big deal.

Should also point out that both blower types from actual experience have a fair bit more head room! Not that it should even be considered to be used on a stock engine!

I hope the above shows a little more balance in the comparison between the two and actually for once highlighting the differences which make sense with respect to the compressor maps issued by both companies.

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      11-03-2012, 02:07 PM   #171
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[u2b]http://youtu.be/pPrL6ebUrDU[/u2b]
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      11-03-2012, 02:12 PM   #172
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[u2b]http://youtu.be/pPrL6ebUrDU[/u2b]
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      11-03-2012, 02:13 PM   #173
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This indeed is a very very interesting piece of engineering alot of people have been looking at.
Big big casings though!
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      11-03-2012, 02:31 PM   #174
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Sal, thanks for that video. That Procharger seems to be a promising SC equipment.
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      11-03-2012, 02:38 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Very cute. Group Sex... haha

Anyway, just so that nothing is confused further here I'd just like to point something out.

The Rotrex C38-91 blower delivers 1134CFM adjusted to the same standards as which the Vortech is showing 1150CFM (SAEJ1723). So there is nothing between them and depending on how the blowers are geared (pulley size) you can make that CFM at various points in the RPM range.
The peak airflow is extremely similar on both.

That's from studying the compressor maps.

How do they actually stack up against each other on the same platform?

Over 6000rpm, very very similar! With the Rotrex you can clearly see this from the graphs we have posted that the HP continues to rise to the rpm limiter (8300rpm). No tailing off, no letting up. It's got the airflow..... well, if it didn't we would have not used it! Would make absolutely no sense as we have no allegiances to Rotrex!

The Vortech differs in it's power delivery mainly below 6000rpm WOT but not by a huge amount. If we are aiming both blowers to make around 6.5-7 PSi there is a difference but around 1-1.2 PSi. You see this on the HKS vs Vortech graphs and there is a difference in midrange HP/Torque.

The main difference comes under part load conditions and throttle response. This is where the much faster spinning Rotrex shows a significant improvement over the Vortech and it makes complete sense if you study the compressor maps and think about efficiency.
However, you cannot have your cake and eat it if this is happening.

What would the Rotrex also be also doing at the same time which the Vortech isn't at these lower-mid rpms ?
Surely there must be a trade off? If it's able to produce more torque (therefore boost) at lower - mid rpm's it's not without a compromise.
What could that be?
It's producing more heat at it's obviously compressing the air more. This means you have to design a cooling system which is even more efficient than the norm. This adds costs. This adds more work in design time and testing.

At the higher rpm's the amount of heat produced is around the same as expected as both blowers have similar airflow output.

You can have excellent throttle response and extremely good torque throughout the entire RPM range and have the top end power to match BUT it requires a certain amount of additional engineering and therefore cost.

There is a way to make the Vortech produce the same torque low-mid rpm and under partial load with the same top end power it's currently producing on kits but the costs involved and the size of the intercooler core required are not something anyone would entertain.

A Rotrex C38-91 delivers a fair bit more airflow than the HKS 8550. You cannot compare these two blowers.

Now, how do we know all of this? We have used Vortech on an engine that requires even more airflow to get results than the S65 which is the S62. We know the differences from a practical stand point.
All the above is not from just some theoretical stand point but from actual real world testing (it actually costs very little to do once you are into a full blown project). We can use a Vortech if we want to and make the first production air to air intercooled Vortech setup in the world using the same plenum and intercooler.

We are tried to make a system where you can have the best of all worlds. I'm glad to say, we achieved it.

If people still insist on blindly insisting that the Rotrex cannot match the airflow of the V3Si even then.... well, we might just make that flat plate bracket which was designed a long time ago into production with a new intake system for those individuals...
Doesn't bother us other than having to make a certain quantity of them which is no big deal.

Should also point out that both blower types from actual experience have a fair bit more head room! Not that it should even be considered to be used on a stock engine!

I hope the above shows a little more balance in the comparison between the two and actually for once highlighting the differences which make sense with respect to the compressor maps issued by both companies.
Sal, thanks for posting, I knew it would only be a matter of time before you did.

Currently there are no independent dyno's or customer feedback on your kit, so to be fair I can't comment on your system, and all of what you say may very well be true, if so let's see it. Based on what many of your customers say about you and your products, I'm sure your kit will be a good choice, looking forward to some customer feedback / results and congrats on the kit, developing a system that is reliable and satisfies the consumer is no easy task.
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ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ @ 7.2psi - 94 octane / Water meth
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi
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      11-03-2012, 02:43 PM   #176
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Sal, thanks for that video. That Procharger seems to be a promising SC equipment.
Thanks goes to M33 for posting it. I just did the heroic and highly complex engineering task of correcting the small mistake
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