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      03-02-2013, 12:04 AM   #67
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BTW, I'm not saying everyone should agree with me. The e9X M3 is faster and more comfortable, which clearly, by the direction BMW continually takes the car, is what people want. I (a minority) just don't happen to agree.

Then again, I don't really like anything any car company is doing these days outside of a select few Porsche models. BMW only makes one model I'd be willing to own at this point, with the e90 M3 out of production-- the e82 128i. 3100 lbs and 285 NA hp with headers, tune, and a factory intake does appeal to me!
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      03-02-2013, 12:41 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Its just silly to think the e46 m3 is better in any measurable way. As it should not be just like the F80 will be better in every objective measure. Sure nostalgia may make the e46 m3 "better" in someones mind but in this thread it is a case when someone who can't have an e90 m3 and has an e46 m3, we convince ourselves what we have is better in some way and actually start to believe it. Just like the 30 mpg. Like you said maybe he saw one time going 50 on the highway he got 30mpg and now believes the car gets 30mpg in general on the highway.

I would love an e46 m3 in the stall with my e90 m3 but if you had to pick one it is really a no brainer.

The only reason I can see truly choosing an older version of a car will be when the F80 comes out given its engine is completely a different concept than traditional M3 engines with turbo and low revs. But the e90 v8 builds on the high-rev cocept and makes more power per litre, has higher revs and screams louder and screeches like crazy up high in a similar but different fashion than the e46. So if you liked the S54, there is no way you would not like the s65 better. Especially given it weighs less!
Before I bought a M3, I was looking at Porsches.

Almost pulled the trigger on a 997. Didn't really like the 991 as much. Yes it was faster, but at that level for a DD who cares (and yes I can afford the 991). Just felt that the 997 is a better platform.

Would anyone choose a 996 over a 993? The 996 is much faster and more modern, but very few who have driven both are going to pick the 996. Sure last of the air cooled, but it's more than that.

The same with the M3. It's not like people are priced out of the E9X (everyday there's some 19 yo buying one on this forum ). It's priced pretty low at this time for a used model. Some people just prefer the E46. Don't see why it's so difficult to understand that.
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      03-02-2013, 02:42 AM   #69
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btw, my E90 M3 can also get 30 mpgs. I have to drive at 50 mph in 6th gear on a flat road, but again, what's the point? If I wanted mpgs, i would bought a prius.
Well said not to mention the EDC feature plus many other setting on E9X M3 that E46 is missing, not so sure about 6MT but SMG is horrible on E46 slow & sluggish.
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      03-02-2013, 02:58 AM   #70
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E90 M3 if that's in your price range, E46 M3 is an awesome car but the upkeep might be slightly higher.
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      03-02-2013, 04:31 AM   #71
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Just because a lot of 19 year olds buy one, does not mean its in everyones price range, especially new. Even used ones can perhaps be bought but people then are often unable to afford cost of ownership, repairs that cost a lot etc. So an e90 m3 is not in everybodies budget I am afraid, new or used
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      03-02-2013, 07:47 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighandDry View Post
Before I bought a M3, I was looking at Porsches.

Almost pulled the trigger on a 997. Didn't really like the 991 as much. Yes it was faster, but at that level for a DD who cares (and yes I can afford the 991). Just felt that the 997 is a better platform.

Would anyone choose a 996 over a 993? The 996 is much faster and more modern, but very few who have driven both are going to pick the 996. Sure last of the air cooled, but it's more than that.

The same with the M3. It's not like people are priced out of the E9X (everyday there's some 19 yo buying one on this forum ). It's priced pretty low at this time for a used model. Some people just prefer the E46. Don't see why it's so difficult to understand that.
Exactly, good analogy.

In fact, for me... 964 > 993 > 997 > 991 > 996

Then again... from my perspective, a 981 Cayman S with a steering retrofit from a 987 Cayman may be the best car Porsche (or any car company?) has ever released. That car is damn near perfect. Just needs a bit more "I'm trying to kill you" factor....

My perfect care might be a 981 with 987 steering and 997 GT3 engine
... but need 4 seats.

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Originally Posted by zamboni View Post
Well said not to mention the EDC feature plus many other setting on E9X M3 that E46 is missing, not so sure about 6MT but SMG is horrible on E46 slow & sluggish.
SMG is love it or hate it. It certainly is NOT an automatic. You have to work to make it smooth and fast-- it has to be driven like a manual from your right foot's perspective. That said, I prefer it to DCT for exactly that reason.

Then again, a 6mt has to be driven even more like a manual, so that's what I got, and is the only thing I want (in either car).

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Just because a lot of 19 year olds buy one, does not mean its in everyones price range, especially new. Even used ones can perhaps be bought but people then are often unable to afford cost of ownership, repairs that cost a lot etc. So an e90 m3 is not in everybodies budget I am afraid, new or used
It may not be in everyone's price range, but that doesn't mean it's the only reason people don't get it. As I said in the other post... In the last year, I've spent the price of a used 2008 e92 M3 on SuperSprint products on the two cars... and I've done other mods than that as well. Dropping it off today to have a lighter trunk (8 lbs!) painted--coupe grand to save a couple pounds (already have a heavier CF CSL trunk). In two weeks, doing a light weight stereo project on the car (as in, the focus of the stereo project is making the car lighter), also not cheap. As soon as I can locate one, I'll be ordering a CSL roof (It's currently NLA, but rumors are floating that BMW will be resuming projection... briefly)-- $3k for the part, another thousand or so for install.
(getting the car lighter is very much my focus at the moment, if it's not apparent-- my goal is to get it under 3100 lbs without compromising practicality (4 seats) or comfort)

It's hard to post it without sounding like an ass, but I think i could buy one if I wanted to . A used e9X M3 is a pretty cheap car now, and when the F30 comes out... it'll become significantly cheaper.

In a year or two, e46 and e9X M3 prices should be pretty close together-- couple thousand off. Then people will actually only be choosing by which car they like better!

That said, I absolutely agree that some people do by the e46 over the e9X because it's what they can afford.

Last edited by Obioban; 03-02-2013 at 08:06 AM.
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      03-02-2013, 09:37 AM   #73
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I very recently switched from an e46 M3 6spd to an e90 M3 DCT. I'm less than two weeks in, but so far my adjustment has been like this:

- Test drove a 6spd (I was impartial on transmission. Preferred 6spd, but intrigued by the technology): "holy crap this transmission sucks. Clutch too light. Too easy to drive. I miss the glorious battle of shifting my e46." - I believe this would have improved over time. This didn't deter me from the manual. I just happened to find a DCT that I liked first.

- First few times in my new (to me) DCT: "hmmm, this is fast and easy to drive, but not as involved as my e46. I feel the size. Where is the noise? Why doesn't it sound like I'm doing naughty things with this engine. It's loud, but smooth. Did I make a mistake here? No, intelligent people say this is the best thing on 4 tires. I must be missing something."

- as the days have gone on: "wow, this thing feels solid. Why did I put up with that cranky, notchy transmission? How could the steering feel this good? It's so precise that it makes up for the weight. My first gear is usable above 4mph!!! Did I really just accelerate that fast? Oh yeah, this is what interior technology is like."

Long story short after having some doubts it's growing on me extremely fast. I fully expect to lose all longing for my old e46 very soon. My only knock, that I believe will be lasting, is that the extra power means less occasion to be able to really rev out the engine on the street. I might even get over that once I get to the track a few times.
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      03-02-2013, 11:45 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
You're localish. I can show you next time I'm passing through NYC area if you'd like
Can you show me as well when you head south? I drove a e46 for 10 years and the best mileage ever driving a constant 75mph was 27.0 (computer indicated) and 25.5 (actual calculated).
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      03-02-2013, 11:47 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Mmmm3333 View Post
Can you show me as well when you head south? I drove a e46 for 10 years and the best mileage ever driving a constant 75mph was 27.0 (computer indicated) and 25.5 (actual calculated).
I don't go that way nearly as often, but I could make a video for everyone next time I'm on the highway.
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      03-03-2013, 11:39 AM   #76
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My only knock, that I believe will be lasting, is that the extra power means less occasion to be able to really rev out the engine on the street. I might even get over that once I get to the track a few times.
I feel the same way. I love the power but hardly get to use it. When you hit 70 in 2nd gear there aren't many places to really wring it out.
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      03-03-2013, 03:45 PM   #77
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Amusingly the 46 also hits exactly 70 in 2nd.

Could be worse-- the z06 is still in first. For that matter, the Z06 can start in 5th (TORQUE) and take it all the way to 185. In one gear. Absurd.
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      03-03-2013, 04:50 PM   #78
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hmmm tough decision here, but S65 wins
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      03-03-2013, 05:19 PM   #79
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hmmm tough decision here, but S65 wins
I actually agree that, overall, the S65 wins (though unlike most people, what I really want is the S65 weight!). The problem is, the S65 is the only part of the e9X that I prefer to the e46.

In my particular case, however:



My S54 vs a S65. The rev limiter was capping the S65 early. That means the peak numbers were lower, but the numbers under the curve to that point aren't effected. S65 is bone stock, mine has exhaust, tune, and an intake elbow.

My S54 in red, S65 in blue.

Soon I'll do more than bolt ons!

Last edited by Obioban; 03-03-2013 at 05:32 PM.
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      03-03-2013, 05:40 PM   #80
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You are comparing a modded S54 to a stock S65 (and one that performs on the lower end of the range of S65). Mod the S65, and it regains its power advantage over the modded S54 (they hit just under 400 rwhp with tune, intake, pulley and exhaust).
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      03-03-2013, 05:45 PM   #81
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Yes, I said clearly in the post it was modded vs stock.

My car is also 550 lbs lighter than an e9X M3 instead of the standard 300.
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      03-03-2013, 06:19 PM   #82
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You can lighten an E90M3 also. I think it would feel better with 10% less weight, but that takes some money or some sacrifice in comfort. If I keep my car long term, I may drop a little weight, but more like 5% (exhaust, battery, brakes, seats, wheels).

While I understand the purist perspective, I like comfort with my speed and handling. I have little interest in driving our 2002 or Bavaria, for example, and reach for the keys of the E90M3 more than the keys to the 500+ rwhp/500+ lbs rwtq E36M3 (though the E36M3 is comfortable enough that I still drive it year round). I also like ABS brakes. And I don't object to sophisticated traction control (though the standard E90M3 version is a little intrusive so I may go to the Euro MDM version).

I thought about an E46M3 before buying the E90M3, but I would have had to mod it to make it perform like I wanted. They are decent cars. If I just wanted an upgrade from a stock E36M3, the E46M3 or a 135i would have been my choice. The E90M3 is another step up the ladder from the E46M3 in terms of performance.
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      03-03-2013, 07:50 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
You can lighten an E90M3 also. I think it would feel better with 10% less weight, but that takes some money or some sacrifice in comfort. If I keep my car long term, I may drop a little weight, but more like 5% (exhaust, battery, brakes, seats, wheels).

While I understand the purist perspective, I like comfort with my speed and handling. I have little interest in driving our 2002 or Bavaria, for example, and reach for the keys of the E90M3 more than the keys to the 500+ rwhp/500+ lbs rwtq E36M3 (though the E36M3 is comfortable enough that I still drive it year round). I also like ABS brakes. And I don't object to sophisticated traction control (though the standard E90M3 version is a little intrusive so I may go to the Euro MDM version).

I thought about an E46M3 before buying the E90M3, but I would have had to mod it to make it perform like I wanted. They are decent cars. If I just wanted an upgrade from a stock E36M3, the E46M3 or a 135i would have been my choice. The E90M3 is another step up the ladder from the E46M3 in terms of performance.
You can lighten an e9X, but you have an significantly heavier starting weight and BMW already did a lot of weight saving-- e.g. CF roof, plastic fenders, etc. BMW really went to town on it, as the underlying e9X chassis is heavy! As in, if you compare same spec e60s and e90s (eg 535xi auto vs 335xi auto, or 328i manual vs 528i manual), the curb weight of the e60 is only 70 lbs more than the e90! With that in mind, it's actually pretty impressive that they got the M3 down to 300 lbs lighter than the e60 M5.

My 46 is the civility retaining (expensive route) lightweight-- hence the sub 3100 lb curb weight target.

My 36 is the all out lightness car, civility be damned, hence the current 2315 lb weight.
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