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      10-24-2012, 01:09 AM   #23
Fraggy
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Originally Posted by Fraggy View Post
Thank goodness on that, but still...
Racist much?
Racist my ass. It has everything to do with BMW choosing to kiss the ass of Mexico and brazil who have hardly contributed to BMWs success, while giving Americans the big middle finger despite being a large market for BMW. And we're stupid enough to take it.
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      10-24-2012, 01:45 AM   #24
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The deal with the Gov. would be if they have a plant there then there would be no import duty.

Our federal import duty on luxury cars here is like 31% plus 3.5% Stamp State Duty and then GST of 10%. If you build the cars here you drop the import duty. And the Gov tells us its level playing field, what rot.

Ford Australia just recieved somethinh like 200mil dollars from the Gov to keep build cars here until 2016 and GMH (GM) Australia was given 56mil dollars to stay.

But come 2016 they will both stop build cars here and will import.

To give you an idea my X5M 50d fully optioned was $194,000 on the road, and our dollar buys $1.03 US, you can see why Pollies are not liked here, there just blood suckers, And if you live in Singapore you can add another $100k to that price..

A new Jeep Wrangler MY2013 4 door in the US is worth $25k, here its $46k.
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      10-24-2012, 02:19 AM   #25
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The costs for building in Brazil are lower than building in US.
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      10-24-2012, 07:17 AM   #26
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Don't they already have a manufacturing presence there? Aren't MINI engines made in Brasil?
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      10-24-2012, 08:52 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watrob View Post
The deal with the Gov. would be if they have a plant there then there would be no import duty.
That's incorrect, you still have to import all the parts to be assembled and this is taxed. Then you have many other taxes on top of it. This will not change anything for the high prices in brazil. That will not stop crazy customers like bruno and his fellow 1percenters who like to pay more for less and perpetuate this system.

Take the example of that VW car that is built in brazil and exported to mexico and it is still sold 2x more to brazilians than to mexicans. All coming from the same plant in brazil.
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      10-24-2012, 09:37 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by ft1337 View Post
That's incorrect, you still have to import all the parts to be assembled and this is taxed. Then you have many other taxes on top of it. This will not change anything for the high prices in brazil. That will not stop crazy customers like bruno and his fellow 1percenters who like to pay more for less and perpetuate this system.

Take the example of that VW car that is built in brazil and exported to mexico and it is still sold 2x more to brazilians than to mexicans. All coming from the same plant in brazil.
This is true, unless BMW utilizes localized supplier production (which they will).

It hardly makes sense to ship all parts from overseas for import to be produced locally, when the global suppliers can support local production. Engineering and manufacturing equipment can be shared globally.

The main thing to overcome is the cultural differences of the labor force, especially when building a new plant. It definitely impacts the quality/output of the plant.
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      10-24-2012, 09:50 AM   #29
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Ft13, you seem a Little frustrated with the brazilian gov/lifestyle. Why is that?
I can see that you "know" a little about brazil, judging by the yt video you posted named in portuguese, how is that? How did you hear about that?
I know a lil about brazil and can affirm that health-wise, its not expensive. Yes, the cars are expensive, but its easy to understand why: people there are with money in their pockets. It doesnt matter how expensive it is, they BUY it, use it and buy a even more expensive one after. Why did bmw said brazil will be an excelent market in the future?
Anw, it looks like something really bothers you when it comes to brazil. Maybe its their women, their perfect weather, maybe the good food and people around... Or just because more and more and more Brazilians are being able to buy bimmers (and even more after the new plant) and you are still driving your "POS" as you like to call it.
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      10-24-2012, 10:24 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Fraggy View Post
Thank goodness on that, but still...
Here we go again.. can you please explain to us what is the difference having a plant in Mexico or Brasil... or is just your ignorance from your part!
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      10-24-2012, 10:32 AM   #31
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Ft13, you seem a Little frustrated with the brazilian gov/lifestyle. Why is that?
I can see that you "know" a little about brazil, judging by the yt video you posted named in portuguese, how is that? How did you hear about that?
I know a lil about brazil and can affirm that health-wise, its not expensive. Yes, the cars are expensive, but its easy to understand why: people there are with money in their pockets. It doesnt matter how expensive it is, they BUY it, use it and buy a even more expensive one after. Why did bmw said brazil will be an excelent market in the future?
Anw, it looks like something really bothers you when it comes to brazil. Maybe its their women, their perfect weather, maybe the good food and people around... Or just because more and more and more Brazilians are being able to buy bimmers (and even more after the new plant) and you are still driving your "POS" as you like to call it.
You bet I know a thing or two when it comes to Brazil as you've remarked. It probably helps that half of my family lives there.

I'm not sure how in the world you can interpret my comments as Brazil or Brazilian bashing. That is the exact opposite. Gov bashing that's a different story! REAL Brazilians will understand, not some rich gringo on a BMW forum with a little Brazilian flag so he feels more integrated. You and Bruno are on the same pedestal.

Health costs are higher in Brazil than in the US and a LOT higher than in Europe. Wait times are also extremely long. I see you must be in very good health and you haven't had to go to the doc, good for you. I can't think of anything cheaper in Brazil than in the US outside of labor.

Now onto the more important point that you're making, sorry but the people in Brazil do not have their pockets lined up with money, wtf are you talking about? You need to step out of your secured compound and out of your bulletproof car and walk the streets if you're not too scared. You will see most people do NOT have cars, and those who do, have to drive small basic cars with 0 options for the cost of a luxury car in the US! Yet the wages are lower. I'm not talking about you and your bankster friends. I'm talking about the real people. Those at the other end of the huge income divide in Brazil. The people you avoid at all costs to the point of not stepping outside of your house/car.

Now why is it that way? Why has the average Brazilian got to pay 3x more than anyone else for his car? Just like you hinted, because a few rich suckers will pay whatever price for status. It trickles down to the rest of the cars. But those rich fucks are not the root cause of the problem, they just perpetuate it like I said before. The root cause is the gov who finds it appropriate to overtax EVERYTHING to the point of silliness. Of course you know the story when Brazilians that were fortunate enough to travel to Florida in the 80s were coming back with MICROWAVE OVENS because it was 10x the price in Brazil. Or the people who come back with 15 iphones in their luggage because it costs a FORTUNE in Brazil. God forbid the border police catches them or they'll have to pay that 100% import duty right? All manufacturers want a piece of the Brazilian cake. Now what happens? Only the very rich can afford anything decent in Brazil while the rest has to go without and can only dream of owning a US $180k 3 series because of all that shit.

Yes there is something that bothers me about Brazil, that strangely doesn't seem to bother YOU. Is that life is a daily struggle for the regular guy and this could be very different if the gov had the interest of the people in mind and not their own corrupt interests. You would think all the crazy tax money could be invested in proper public schools, public transportation and fighting crime, yet all that money "vanishes" who knows where. Shit, it's taking more than a decade to build a subway line in SP, a city of 20 million in dire need of decent public transportation to stop the daily gridlock. But who cares when you can ride a helicopter right?

If you like Brazil so much then why are you defending the gov? I have yet to find a real Brazilian that defends its gov lol. Just on a BMW forum can you find people willing to defend the status-quo in Brazil, ain't that funny!

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      10-24-2012, 11:01 AM   #32
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ft1337,

Your concepts come from SP, probably, maybe because milions of people that didn't study at all, tried to make their life there. It's not like that in every place. I think you should take a look on others cities and maybe come to visit you will see some difference.

I'm not talking about you're telling lies, but you're overreacting and probably watching too many TV.

I wasn't born rich and I'm not, I just studied and worked hard (btw I'm 27) and like cars. You're talking thrash about the plant in Brazil, why??? don't you want see Brazil growing???

In my point of view, you're being aggressive and maybe jealous, I don't know, who knows...
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      10-24-2012, 11:34 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by ft1337 View Post
You bet I know a thing or two when it comes to Brazil as you've remarked. It probably helps that half of my family lives there.

I'm not sure how in the world you can interpret my comments as Brazil or Brazilian bashing. That is the exact opposite. Gov bashing that's a different story! REAL Brazilians will understand, not some rich gringo on a BMW forum with a little Brazilian flag so he feels more integrated. You and Bruno are on the same pedestal.

Health costs are higher in Brazil than in the US and a LOT higher than in Europe. Wait times are also extremely long. I see you must be in very good health and you haven't had to go to the doc, good for you. I can't think of anything cheaper in Brazil than in the US outside of labor.

Now onto the more important point that you're making, sorry but the people in Brazil do not have their pockets lined up with money, wtf are you talking about? You need to step out of your secured compound and out of your bulletproof car and walk the streets if you're not too scared. You will see most people do NOT have cars, and those who do, have to drive small basic cars with 0 options for the cost of a luxury car in the US! Yet the wages are lower. I'm not talking about you and your bankster friends. I'm talking about the real people. Those at the other end of the huge income divide in Brazil. The people you avoid at all costs to the point of not stepping outside of your house/car.

Now why is it that way? Why has the average Brazilian got to pay 3x more than anyone else for his car? Just like you hinted, because a few rich suckers will pay whatever price for status. It trickles down to the rest of the cars. But those rich fucks are not the root cause of the problem, they just perpetuate it like I said before. The root cause is the gov who finds it appropriate to overtax EVERYTHING to the point of silliness. Of course you know the story when Brazilians that were fortunate enough to travel to Florida in the 80s were coming back with MICROWAVE OVENS because it was 10x the price in Brazil. Or the people who come back with 15 iphones in their luggage because it costs a FORTUNE in Brazil. God forbid the border police catches them or they'll have to pay that 100% import duty right? All manufacturers want a piece of the Brazilian cake. Now what happens? Only the very rich can afford anything decent in Brazil while the rest has to go without and can only dream of owning a US $180k 3 series because of all that shit.

Yes there is something that bothers me about Brazil, that strangely doesn't seem to bother YOU. Is that life is a daily struggle for the regular guy and this could be very different if the gov had the interest of the people in mind and not their own corrupt interests. You would think all the crazy tax money could be invested in proper public schools, public transportation and fighting crime, yet all that money "vanishes" who knows where. Shit, it's taking more than a decade to build a subway line in SP, a city of 20 million in dire need of decent public transportation to stop the daily gridlock. But who cares when you can ride a helicopter right?

If you like Brazil so much then why are you defending the gov? I have yet to find a real Brazilian that defends its gov lol. Just on a BMW forum can you find people willing to defend the status-quo in Brazil, ain't that funny!
You are very wrong.
Health insurance in Brazil: Ģ987 for avg man. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/ex...alth-care.html

Health insurance US: $20,000 for avg family of four. http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/29/pf/h...osts/index.htm

Brazil has the 5th biggest car market on the planet. You asked me what i was talking about, so there it is. Only in 2011, 3.4 million new cars were sold in Brazil. I wont even search for how many of them went to SP. Judging by how expensive you say a car is, they probably have a little money in their pockets, right?

I dont know where did you get the SP subway stuff from, but in case you go there one day, you might need this
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      10-24-2012, 12:27 PM   #34
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Just a fix, we're 4th now
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      10-24-2012, 12:36 PM   #35
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Don't they already have a manufacturing presence there? Aren't MINI engines made in Brasil?
That was just the Tritec engine that was co developed with Chrysler.. since DaimlerChrysler went bust BMW partnered with the PSA group so they're made in France now. Fiat has that plant now.

The world is looking at Brazil to be the next China so BMW is trying to get in early like Audi did in China years before the rest.
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      10-24-2012, 01:04 PM   #36
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Holy shit guys do you actually know Brazil yourselves? No offense but you might need to take a harder look around.

I was once talking to an Indian guy about the caste system in India. His answer was that this is long gone and everyone is peacefully living in a perfect society where boundaries don't exist... Haha. It's called "denial", "shame" or just plain ignorance.

No idea where you got those crazy numbers from DG. $20,000 for a family of 4, LOL! Dude if I had to pay that kind of money I would have died from a cold. That could be the average cost of healthcare to the EMPLOYER. Employee cost is nowhere near that, like not even a fraction of that. For me it's actually less than the Brazilian number you posted. Anyway, good to see Brazil has a great public health system, you should talk to that optimistic Indian guy

I'm not denying 3.4 million new cars is a strong number for Brazil. But you're missing my point, try seeing past the numbers, are those people paying cash? Are they deep in depth now? Are they happy about how much the car was sold for? How do they like driving a GOL with no more options than a Kombi but that costs as much as a well-optioned large family sedan here? How about the other 195 millions? This is what I'm talking about.

About the subway:



And Bruno, I've been everywhere in Brazil. You're from Curitiba isn't it? How's that for a distorted perspective... Your model city hardly represents 200 millions Brazilians. You're right that a lot of uneducated and poor people made their way to SP to get a shot at anything. Now they had to come from somewhere, no? You're the one watching too much Globo dude. All things are not perfect and square like your favorite novella.

I want to see Brazil develop more than anyone, and certainly more than you since you don't seem to acknowledge the issues. How can you fix something you don't see? You 2 truly blew my mind, such denial. Never seen this with any Brazilian before. Tchau.

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      10-24-2012, 02:23 PM   #37
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In regards

BMW werk Spartanburg is the centre par excellence for the BMW SAV line of X models. The X models are built in the US because that is the largest market for them it is also the best selling exported model line across the globe. The largest market for the BMW X5 and BMW X3 is the USA.
It makes more sense to build SAV's in the US rather than other models that are targeted at entirely different growing markets such as the new generation of FWD cars, imagine if they built Tourings or GT's in the US instead of the X models it would solely rely on exports.
Investment in Spartanburg continues in light of the new BMW X4 , BMW could even decide to build the next generation
of BMW X1/X2 models in the US making it relevant for the US market and BMW's global centre for SAV's.
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      10-24-2012, 03:28 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by ft1337 View Post
Holy shit guys do you actually know Brazil yourselves? No offense but you might need to take a harder look around.

I was once talking to an Indian guy about the caste system in India. His answer was that this is long gone and everyone is peacefully living in a perfect society where boundaries don't exist... Haha. It's called "denial", "shame" or just plain ignorance.

No idea where you got those crazy numbers from DG. $20,000 for a family of 4, LOL! Dude if I had to pay that kind of money I would have died from a cold. That could be the average cost of healthcare to the EMPLOYER. Employee cost is nowhere near that, like not even a fraction of that. For me it's actually less than the Brazilian number you posted. Anyway, good to see Brazil has a great public health system, you should talk to that optimistic Indian guy

I'm not denying 3.4 million new cars is a strong number for Brazil. But you're missing my point, try seeing past the numbers, are those people paying cash? Are they deep in depth now? Are they happy about how much the car was sold for? How do they like driving a GOL with no more options than a Kombi but that costs as much as a well-optioned large family sedan here? How about the other 295 millions? This is what I'm talking about.

About the subway:



And Bruno, I've been everywhere in Brazil. You're from Curitiba isn't it? How's that for a distorted perspective... Your model city hardly represents 300 millions Brazilians. You're right that a lot of uneducated and poor people made their way to SP to get a shot at anything. Now they had to come from somewhere, no? You're the one watching too much Globo dude. All things are not perfect and square like your favorite novella.

I want to see Brazil develop more than anyone, and certainly more than you since you don't seem to acknowledge the issues. How can you fix something you don't see? You 2 truly blew my mind, such denial. Never seen this with any Brazilian before. Tchau.
The picture is funny. Actually, that was the intention of the brazilian who made it. Unfortunately it doesnt represent the reality.
In fact, its hard to take anything you post seriously. The population of Brazil is 193 million.
You should read more.
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      10-24-2012, 03:58 PM   #39
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The picture is funny. Actually, that was the intention of the brazilian who made it. Unfortunately it doesnt represent the reality.
In fact, its hard to take anything you post seriously. The population of Brazil is 193 million.
You should read more.
Thanks for rectifying that I had a brain fart, yes 200 millions. I will correct the earlier comment.
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      10-24-2012, 04:03 PM   #40
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Brazilian politicians once again had to screw someone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuz5150
Why not build the plant in the USA???
I like how BMW has to go to Brazil and Kiss the ring of the Brazilian president and
She'll approve/ Let them build the plant very shady.....whata BS
Eike Batista was trying to build a BWM plant there, together with BMW, the months later everything was over as far as negotiation. And then this new pops... Very strange...
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      10-24-2012, 04:18 PM   #41
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Racist my ass. It has everything to do with BMW choosing to kiss the ass of Mexico and brazil who have hardly contributed to BMWs success, while giving Americans the big middle finger despite being a large market for BMW. And we're stupid enough to take it.
BMW is not giving the US the middle finger. They are already the largest auto exporter in this country, and last time I heard they were in the process of expanding the Spartanburg plant to increase its capacity even further. It is also worth pointing out that the distance between the Texas border and Sao Paulo is actually about 500 miles longer than it is between Detroit and Munich. So again it is hardly giving us the middle finger. Every company in the world does not have to do 100% of their manufacturing here to show a commitment to this country. And really out of all of the auto makers BMW has been one of the most committed to this country.
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      10-26-2012, 11:43 PM   #42
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In a few years people will understand this decision from a supply chain perspective. Give time for these perspectives to develop and become more common
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      11-01-2012, 12:52 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ft1337 View Post
Holy shit guys do you actually know Brazil yourselves? No offense but you might need to take a harder look around.

I was once talking to an Indian guy about the caste system in India. His answer was that this is long gone and everyone is peacefully living in a perfect society where boundaries don't exist... Haha. It's called "denial", "shame" or just plain ignorance.

No idea where you got those crazy numbers from DG. $20,000 for a family of 4, LOL! Dude if I had to pay that kind of money I would have died from a cold. That could be the average cost of healthcare to the EMPLOYER. Employee cost is nowhere near that, like not even a fraction of that. For me it's actually less than the Brazilian number you posted. Anyway, good to see Brazil has a great public health system, you should talk to that optimistic Indian guy

I'm not denying 3.4 million new cars is a strong number for Brazil. But you're missing my point, try seeing past the numbers, are those people paying cash? Are they deep in depth now? Are they happy about how much the car was sold for? How do they like driving a GOL with no more options than a Kombi but that costs as much as a well-optioned large family sedan here? How about the other 195 millions? This is what I'm talking about.

About the subway:



And Bruno, I've been everywhere in Brazil. You're from Curitiba isn't it? How's that for a distorted perspective... Your model city hardly represents 200 millions Brazilians. You're right that a lot of uneducated and poor people made their way to SP to get a shot at anything. Now they had to come from somewhere, no? You're the one watching too much Globo dude. All things are not perfect and square like your favorite novella.

I want to see Brazil develop more than anyone, and certainly more than you since you don't seem to acknowledge the issues. How can you fix something you don't see? You 2 truly blew my mind, such denial. Never seen this with any Brazilian before. Tchau.
I sort of agree with some of your points, but I also agree with some of the things bruno said as well.

There's absolutely no denying that prices are exaggerated in Brazil, mostly because of that ludacris tax system. The final consumer pays taxes over the parts used in the manufacturing of the vehicle, over the actual manufacturing process, over transportation, over the sales transaction, and over the final product itself, and that's for cars that were made in Brazil. Consumers that buy imported cars have to pay even more than that.

On the other hand, car companies in Brazil also have possibly the largest profit rate in the entire world over each vehicle sold, so considering all of that, it's a wonder that prices are "only" 2-3 times bigger than on the rest of the world.

In any case, before imports were allowed to be sold, the offer of products on our market was naturally limited, and of subpar quality standards. Therefore, what little imports were sold were not only better than the national products, but also hugely expensive in comparison.

And it was here that people created this wrong assumption, that price was an indication of exclusivity and of quality. In other words, the market learned to look for price tags before actual specifications and quality standards of what they bought. So I do agree that the consumer is to blame for a huge part of the prices today.

However, you canīt help but notice that on the last 5 years, I reckon, this latest batch of korean and chinese cars that came to Brazil had, as a selling point, similar quality and content, but with smaller prices than the competition. They showed that a reduction in price without compromising the goods was possible. Not to mention that the disparity between prices in Brazil and in the rest of the world is also getting people's attention more and more everyday.

So consumer awareness has been changing, ever so slowly, I admit, but changing nonetheless. It means a lot that car prices have been kept somewhat frozen, or in some cases even reduced, for the last 5 years.

However, that doesnīt change the fact that there is still an overwhelming amount of taxes to be paid over everything, and that the government is stimulating a loss of actual value for the brazilian currency, to help exportations. So consumer awareness can only come so far in order to change this reality. The real change is only going to happen when people realize that this is caused by the people they voted for, and create a political awareness as well.

So here is where I agree more with bruno than with you - people that are completely aware of the unfairness of brazilian prices (such as bruno, and myself, I suppose) still have no options to go around them. Bringing a microwave oven from abroad yourself is one thing, but a car is almost unrealistic, given once again the brazilian legislation over this matter.

Therefore, knowing that BMW is going to build a plant in Brazil, then, to me, is wonderful news! After all, it is likely to reduce their prices, and even if they donīt yet reach the levels of the rest of the world, it is a step in the right direction. And they probably wouldnīt have decided to do it, if not for the 15.000 suckers that bought their cars last year, and the ones before them too.
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