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      01-02-2008, 01:15 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChitownM3 View Post
Simmer down Keto, you don't really understand inflation yourself. The inflation rate in the US hasn't been at 4% since 1991. In fact, over the past 7 years the average inflation rate was about 2.75%. Doesn't seem like much, but if you redo your math the 60.5K number seems quite inflated. With the actual inflation rate being 2.75% over the past 7 years the price of the M3 should be right around 55.8k. I would be ecstatic if it actually came out at this price, quite a bit cheaper than the 60.5k number you are calculating. Either way, much more is involed in the pricing of the car than inflation, the dropping value of the USD is really worrying me.

Source: http://www.miseryindex.us/irbyyear.asp
I'd say applying inflation calculations across a complete product rework is not accurate in the first place. Inflation should account for prices of the same product or service over time. Sure you can argue that an E46 M3 "is" an E92 M3 since they are each, during certain time periods, current model M3s. I would find it reasonable to pay more than inflation when a product undergoes a radical change like E46->E92 and this is clearly more radical than the E36->E46 but only based on I6->V8, since the E36->E46 change was a new car from the ground up as well, despite similar engine layouts.
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      01-02-2008, 02:01 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I'd say applying inflation calculations across a complete product rework is not accurate in the first place. Inflation should account for prices of the same product or service over time. Sure you can argue that an E46 M3 "is" an E92 M3 since they are each, during certain time periods, current model M3s. I would find it reasonable to pay more than inflation when a product undergoes a radical change like E46->E92 and this is clearly more radical than the E36->E46 but only based on I6->V8, since the E36->E46 change was a new car from the ground up as well, despite similar engine layouts.
Point wasn't to be robotically precise but just to illustrate that price ceilings have to change over time and that the current average guesstimate E92 base price is not nuts, despite all the hubbub.

As for whether the models "are" equivalent in that sense, well, I'd say that BMW is pricing them at that goal, since there are other BMW models just above and below those price points where differentiation becomes a problem (price it high = why not get an M5 or 911, price it low = why do people buy 335's, etc.)
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      01-02-2008, 05:08 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Keto View Post
Point wasn't to be robotically precise but just to illustrate that price ceilings have to change over time and that the current average guesstimate E92 base price is not nuts, despite all the hubbub.
Agreed, exactly. I was more or less siding with you in that getting the numbers exactly right is not really the point. And if getting the numbers exactly right is ones goal they likely overlooked something even more important to pricing if they overlooked the expected jump when a model undergoes a total dedesign . This is how BMWs are typically priced. Year 1 = base price, years 2,3, etc. = slight inflation type jumps (or maybe none), new model year = large jump over last year of model, compared to jumps 2,3, etc.
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      01-02-2008, 01:11 PM   #70
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Just because a car is a new model doesn't give the company the right to make it cost so much more money. It's not the 70s and 80s anymore, we as consumeres expect the next model to be better than the previous in every way and don't expect to pay anymore money for it. The C6 Corvette is better than the C5 in almost every way possible and is actually cheaper!
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      01-02-2008, 01:41 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by ChitownM3 View Post
Just because a car is a new model doesn't give the company the right to make it cost so much more money. It's not the 70s and 80s anymore, we as consumeres expect the next model to be better than the previous in every way and don't expect to pay anymore money for it. The C6 Corvette is better than the C5 in almost every way possible and is actually cheaper!
If you feel that way personally you will not be purchasing a new M3.
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      01-02-2008, 02:42 PM   #72
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If you feel that way personally you will not be purchasing a new M3.

Wrong. I don't expect cars to decrease in price like the Corvette did, but I also don't expect cars to increase in price well over the rate of inflation. If the M3 starts at 65K then you are correct, I will not be purchasing a new M3 and I believe many others will not be purchasing an M3, especially with all the other options out there. The new CTS-V comes out in a year with a rumored 525 hp and will probably start in the 50s.
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      01-02-2008, 04:00 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChitownM3 View Post
Just because a car is a new model doesn't give the company the right to make it cost so much more money. It's not the 70s and 80s anymore, we as consumeres expect the next model to be better than the previous in every way and don't expect to pay anymore money for it. The C6 Corvette is better than the C5 in almost every way possible and is actually cheaper!
Well, the company has the right to price it however they want.

However, they will be forced to price it exactly where their target customers value it if they wish to meet sales goals. I suspect that will put it under 60k, but I could easily be wrong since I am just a layman throwing in an opinion, whereas BMW has teams of people with a very high level of marketing expertise.

Just remember, ultimately BMW doesn't care if E46 M3 buyers can afford the new M3 or even desire it. They just care if there are 100,000 people out there who can and do. Retaining as many past buyers as possible will certainly help but, even if some can no longer afford the car, they will have taken that all into account when building the business case.
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      01-03-2008, 06:20 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by ChitownM3 View Post
The C6 Corvette is better than the C5 in almost every way possible and is actually cheaper!
All the C6 would have required was a King-size drinks holder and it would have been a better car than the C5. (Joke)
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      01-03-2008, 12:15 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChitownM3 View Post
Wrong. I don't expect cars to decrease in price like the Corvette did, but I also don't expect cars to increase in price well over the rate of inflation. If the M3 starts at 65K then you are correct, I will not be purchasing a new M3 and I believe many others will not be purchasing an M3, especially with all the other options out there. The new CTS-V comes out in a year with a rumored 525 hp and will probably start in the 50s.
Care to place a bet? Just a couple posts back you claimed the inflation adjusted price should be $55.8k. If you think the car will come in at that price and that is a personal limit of some kind, I'd refer back to my last post. Ain't going to happen. I know we do not have any crytal balls here but wouldn't you agree the consensus is $60k +/- $2k?
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      01-03-2008, 02:49 PM   #76
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I didn't say that I expected the car to come in at 56K, I said I would be ecstatic if it did. I totally agrree with the60K +/-2k number. I am really hoping for 58k!!!
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      01-03-2008, 07:05 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChitownM3 View Post
I didn't say that I expected the car to come in at 56K, I said I would be ecstatic if it did. I totally agrree with the60K +/-2k number. I am really hoping for 58k!!!
Which brings us right back to square one. $60k is a lot more than $55k and both 60 and 58 are quite a bit above normal inflation which you claimed you would not pay above. Am I nitpicking your statements or missing something?
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      01-03-2008, 08:09 PM   #78
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Which brings us right back to square one. $60k is a lot more than $55k and both 60 and 58 are quite a bit above normal inflation which you claimed you would not pay above. Am I nitpicking your statements or missing something?
I claimed I would not pay a price above inflation? Show me. I said I wouldn't pay 65K, which is 10 k above inflation, 60k is doable.
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      01-03-2008, 10:01 PM   #79
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I claimed I would not pay a price above inflation? Show me. I said I wouldn't pay 65K, which is 10 k above inflation, 60k is doable.
OK, again I admit it is being a bit of a stickler, but according to your own fairly exacting calculations, $56k is strictly above inflation.
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      01-04-2008, 10:23 AM   #80
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Have you lost it??? I'm asking you, when did I say I wouldn't pay above inflation??? I said I wouldn't pay 65k or above. I'd probably pay 62 or below, but I haven't set a firm price in my mind yet.
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      01-04-2008, 12:03 PM   #81
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Have you lost it??? I'm asking you, when did I say I wouldn't pay above inflation??? I said I wouldn't pay 65k or above. I'd probably pay 62 or below, but I haven't set a firm price in my mind yet.

Well if your "I" is a part of your "we" then this seems to cover it,
Quote:
we as consumeres expect the next model to be better than the previous in every way and don't expect to pay anymore money for it.
I agree this is not exactly claiming you would not pay above inflation. But you did set this as a reasonable interpretation of your expectation.

Which leads to the next contradiction, you said,
Quote:
I didn't say that I expected the car to come in at 56K
Yet we have your quote above directly expressing your expectation of $56k (i.e. at inflation).

Again, I realize I'm being a stickler on these points, but you simply seem to have dug yourself into a little bit of a hole of contradiction/incompatible expectations. I think I still understand your opinion on how cars should be priced and that you are personally willing to deviate above that slightly. Cheers.

Last edited by swamp2; 01-04-2008 at 01:05 PM.
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      01-29-2008, 03:22 AM   #82
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Judging from the looks of the new A4, the new RS4 is going to look better than ever.
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      01-29-2008, 10:02 AM   #83
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competition is good brings out the best in all car makes.

I remember from in 01-03 when the M3 was king it ruled, no other sports car in the class was close such as.

Audi S4
MB C36 or E55
Cadi, who, that's what I said

Or even the other sports
911
C5 Corvette

As far as lexus and nissan they weren't even in the playing field

now there is a lot of good performing cars coming out, not just fast in a straight line, but also that handle and brake very well.

Give all consumers a large range of choices and Bmw followers a better car, but at the same time more competition.
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      02-14-2008, 06:41 AM   #84
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Who knows, but $89k is a lot of money for a A4.
89K is for the vert.. but the same can be said to a probable 7Xk M3 vert. The rs4 is still a different beast from a A4

To the op.. 450 should be nice but i just hope that the gas mileage doesn't take anymore than it is. Apart from the RS line, I love the S4's but i wished i could get more than 300miles from the tank out of a saloon. At that rate, the gas station would be my damn butt buddy!
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