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      10-18-2012, 07:54 AM   #1
jphughan
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Impressions/Pics of 265 or 275 square setup?

Well, thanks to helpful information on M3Post as well as some absolutely outstanding assistance from David@ApexRaceParts, I've got almost all of the information I need for my next mod: dedicated track wheels. At this point I'm just hoping people running what I'm considering can chime in with their subjective impressions and possibly even pics.

I'm going to go with the new APEX EC-7 wheel, running a square setup of either 18x9.5 ET22 with 265/35/18s or 18x10 ET25 with 275/35/18s, preferably the latter. This is going to start out as a dedicated track setup, but in case I decide to make this my full-time setup (since I'll also be buying Vorshlag adjustable camber plates), I'm also considering aesthetics a bit.

David@Apex tells me that the 10" wheels with 275s should only rub when using certain extreme performance/R-compound tires, and even then only slightly and briefly against the liner under very hard cornering, which I can live with; there's apparently no rubbing against the strut even at steering lock. However, most of the setups I've seen at the track have used 265s (maybe because it was easier since the rears were already that size?), so I'm curious if anyone here has experience with a square 275 setup, especially if they used to use 265 and especially if they're running camber in the -2.5 to -3 range as I'm planning. How does it handle? Does putting that much extra rubber up front negatively change the steering feel? Is it worth using 275 rather than 265? I'm mostly interested in track feel, but as I said may consider this as my road setup (with camber plates set for -1 to -1.5), so road impressions would also be appreciated. I know that both wheel sizes I'm considering will handle both tire sizes, but I want to pick the optimal pairing.

Also, does anyone have pics of a square 275/35/18 setup on 18x10 ET25 wheels (not necessarily the EC-7), ideally without spacers or any other appearance-altering suspension mods? From doing the math on the offsets I can tell that a square 10" ET25 setup will make the front wheels stick .89" farther out than my stock 220M setup and the rears stick out only 0.16" farther. It looks like everything will still (just) fit inside the fenders, but if anyone has pics of the setup I'm considering, I'd love to see a few. Hopefully the fronts don't stick out noticeably wider than the rears.

And lastly, since it seems 265/35/18 opens up more tire choices than 275/35/18, are there any issues running 265/35/18 in the rear even though OEM spec is 265/40/18? And if I wanted to be able to run either tire size on a given wheel size (even though I know I can't optimize for both at the same time), would it be better to run a 275/35/18 tire on a 9.5" wheel or a 265/35/18 tire on a 10" wheel? I'm thinking the latter since the ZCP rear wheel is 19x10 and BMW is running a 265/35 tire there, but I thought I'd ask.
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      10-18-2012, 11:43 AM   #2
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The following are photos of square setup with 18x10 ET25 Apex ARC-8, 275/35/18 RS-3, Ground Control sleeve kit and -3.9f & -2.5r camber. No spacers.

It rubbed just a tad (at full lock, which doesn't happen in race condition - only at parking lots) at the front fender liner.

After tracking with staggered setup (245f/265r, 255f/275r), squared setup's eagerness to turn in was immediately noticeable and welcomed.

(Edit: my initial post stated 18x10.5 Apex, but it should've read 18x10. Fixed now.)

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      10-18-2012, 11:47 AM   #3
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And, here are photos of a more recent square setup: 18x10.5 ET22 TE37, 275/35/18 R-S3, JRZ and 3.5f & 2.5r camber. No spacers.

Same slight rubbing at the front (front part of fender liner) at full lock.

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      10-18-2012, 11:52 AM   #4
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And, here's the current semi-squared setup - 18x10.5 ET22 TE37, 275/35/18f & 285/35/18r R-S3, JRZ and 3.5f & 2.5r camber. No spacers.

Wanted to try 285 square setup, and test-fitting of 18x10.5 Volk with 285/35/18 R-S3 at the front rubbed more than 275, but again, only at full lock. Could've said f it & gone 285 squared, but had access to a new set of two 275 & two 285 R-S3's, so just went with staggered tires on squared wheel setup for now.

As for 265 at the rear, I wouldn't. You'd want to lay down as much rubber as possible.

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      10-18-2012, 12:02 PM   #5
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I run a square setup on the track as well--275/35-18 Nitto NT01s on 18x10" Forgeline GA3R wheels. Before I tried this I was also worried about tramlining or heavy steering with the 275s up front, but it hasn't been an issue on the track at all. As said above, the improved front-end bite is fantastic. Obviously the Nittos are R-comps, but the turn-in and braking on the track feels so much better with this 275 square setup compared to the stock 245/265 PZeros or my regular street 255/275 Pilot Super Sports. Dinan Stage III suspension with -2.5deg front camber, -2.0deg rear camber. No rubbing.

The rears are a bit more tucked in than the fronts with the square setup, but the aesthetics don't bother me on the track. You could always play with using a spacer on the rear on the street to push the rears out a bit more.

Here's a picture in the driveway and on the track:
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      10-18-2012, 12:05 PM   #6
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^Looks good. I will be trying out 275 squared NT01's soon.
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      10-18-2012, 01:34 PM   #7
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here's a crappy cellphone pic of mine .. APEX EC-7s 18x10 ET 25 square with Nitto NT05 275/35/18 ... no rubbing at all perfect track setup.. and car feels much gripper and turns in better on the street too.
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      10-18-2012, 02:40 PM   #8
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Wow, thanks all!!

Ok, so I agree 275/35/18 looks entirely reasonable on the front even if I did decide to use this setup on the road. I'm still a tad worried that the slimmer-than-OEM 265/35/18s in the rear might look strange especially on stock rear suspension, but I'd only go 265s all around if I wanted to use tire models for which 275s weren't available, like the AD08s (though I hear they run wide) or the Pilot Sport Cups. I guess I'd just have to deal with that in that case.

OC3, why did you move to a 10.5" wheel while sticking to the same 275/35/18 setup? Was a 10" not cutting it for you, or was that just to enable future (literal) expansion? I'm surprised you had rubbing on full lock since I was advised that wasn't an issue, but good to know it's not an issue most of the time -- and you're running a lot of negative camber. I'd probably be running AD08s or NT01s on mine fwiw.

And lastly, I'm hoping to hang onto the stock suspension as much as possible (except the camber plates) -- trying to avoid going ALL the way down the mod slippery slope as much as possible (though I'm already accepting that I'll probably want a BBK especially if I start running R-Comps). But just out of curiosity, how much have your suspension changes other than front camber improved track handling, and what percentage of the improvements you saw from suspension + tire changes do you think I'd get just adding camber plates and a squared setup with larger rubber?

Thanks again for replying so quickly all, this is why I love this forum!
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      10-18-2012, 04:05 PM   #9
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Yeah, 275 at the front is very streetable.

Re: 10.5" wheels and 275/35/18, I bought'em like that as a set from another forum member. I wasn't particularly looking for 10.5", but once they became available, I thought why not (for eventual 285 and even 295).

Re: rubbing, I'm not the only one. Many people I track with rub with that particular size combo. One strange thing, though, is... for me, the rubbing, or the audible indication of rubbing, only happens at one particular track (Auto Club Speedway, a very fast roval).

Re: stock suspension, hah, that's what I told myself a year and a half ago when I started tracking - i.e. that I'd stick to tracking on ZCP suspension and wheels, no track wheels, etc. But, here I am, with 3 sets of wheels, Brembo and JRZ. x)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
... But just out of curiosity, how much have your suspension changes other than front camber improved track handling, and what percentage of the improvements you saw from suspension + tire changes do you think I'd get just adding camber plates and a squared setup with larger rubber?...
This requires an extensive discussions and, even then, I don't know if my experience will be substantially applicable to others.

I will say, in my limited experience and knowledge, tires is first and foremost. The improvement in handling, grip, lap times, etc, is the most dramatic from the tire (well, arguably, from the driver too, but that's a different issue). You start from that (tire) and configure/set the suspension around the tire selection [and, taking into account what condition the tire is in - new? nearly new? already heat-cycled out (in which case, you go to the track to just screw around drifting & burn off the remaining rubber)?].

After the tires, then camber plate. Then, brakes (BBK or at least pads, SS line & fluid). Then, coilover.

In my experience, the perceptible difference or improvement in handling gotten from the suspension upgrade was more sedated or subtle than the difference or improvement in handling gotten from the successive tire upgrades I went through (PS/2 > PSS > AD08 > R-S3) and when I went square setup. With tires and square setup, the difference was immediately and substantially noticeable. But, the suspension upgrade for me was not so dramatic. The 5 track days with JRZ so far had been an interestingly subtle yet progressive experience.
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      10-18-2012, 04:33 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
Re: rubbing, I'm not the only one. Many people I track with rub with that particular size combo. One strange thing, though, is... for me, the rubbing, or the audible indication of rubbing, only happens at one particular track (Auto Club Speedway, a very fast roval).

Re: stock suspension, hah, that's what I told myself a year and a half ago when I started tracking - i.e. that I'd stick to tracking on ZCP suspension and wheels, no track wheels, etc. But, here I am, with 3 sets of wheels, Brembo and JRZ. x)

In my experience, the perceptible difference or improvement in handling gotten from the suspension upgrade was more sedated or subtle than the difference or improvement in handling gotten from the successive tire upgrades I went through (PS/2 > PSS > AD08 > R-S3) and when I went square setup. With tires and square setup, the difference was immediately and substantially noticeable. But, the suspension upgrade for me was not so dramatic. The 5 track days with JRZ so far had been an interestingly subtle yet progressive experience.
Wow, thanks again OC3 for writing all that up!! Glad to know I'm going through these upgrades in basically the correct order. I figured that just as with driver skill improvements, the improvements start in leaps and bounds and then you only get incrementally faster after that. Well, at the very least I know that I can postpone suspension modifications later (at least after the BBK) and still reap noticeable benefits -- not to mention delaying sliding farther down that slippery slope.

As for the rubbing, as long as the car doesn't suddenly destabilize when the tire starts touching the fender liner under heavier load (I'm hoping not), I'm ok with it. At least I'll be able to rotate tires with a square setup to reduce the effects of extra wear on the rubbing tire(s).

Other than that, I've got a question in to APEX about possible issues running 265/35/18s in the back since that's smaller than the stock 18 setup, but hopefully that's a non-issue; I'd still like to have that option available though since most of the tires I'm considering are available EITHER as 265 or 275, not both. I also figure that if I wanted maximum flexibility there, it's better to run a 265 tire on a larger 10" wheel than a 275 on a smaller 9.5" wheel, especially considering the ZCP spec has a 265/35/19 tire on a 10" wheel.

Thanks again for all of the detailed information and all of the pics you posted, it's been very helpful!
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      10-18-2012, 05:13 PM   #11
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^Re: rubbing, happens only at full lock, like at parking lot and, in the case of Auto Club Speedway roval, at the paddock (which is obviously the parking area at tracks).
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      10-18-2012, 08:31 PM   #12
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Interesting question!
I went from a stock setup to a 18x10 et 25 Apex Arc-8 square setup, however with staggered 265/35/18 F 285/35/18 R Hankook RS-3 tires. Incredible amount of grip at the track, very little wheelspin when laying power down, but I did notice a decent amount of tramlining around poor Manhattan roads.

I was thinking of moving towards a square tire 275/35/18 Michelin PSS tires purely for tire longevity and the 30k mile tread warranty is an added bonus. But it seems that I would have to add a rear 10mm spacer to match the current stance.

Anyone have thoughts on whether it is overkill to have the spacer?
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      10-18-2012, 09:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmehta211 View Post
Interesting question!
I went from a stock setup to a 18x10 et 25 Apex Arc-8 square setup, however with staggered 265/35/18 F 285/35/18 R Hankook RS-3 tires. Incredible amount of grip at the track, very little wheelspin when laying power down, but I did notice a decent amount of tramlining around poor Manhattan roads.

I was thinking of moving towards a square tire 275/35/18 Michelin PSS tires purely for tire longevity and the 30k mile tread warranty is an added bonus. But it seems that I would have to add a rear 10mm spacer to match the current stance.

Anyone have thoughts on whether it is overkill to have the spacer?
Nice to hear another confirmation of substantially improved track grip!

Good to know that it causes tramlining on the road. I guess that'll just be yet more incentive to keep this set for track-only use and thus justify a more track-oriented tire on said set. Fine by me, I like the look of the 220Ms on the road anyway and have no complaints about how the car handles stock in that environment anyway.

Interesting that you're running staggered tires on square wheels, Apex seems to recommend going staggered on staggered or square on square. As for stance though, if you're interested in going square I'd just see how it looks first without spacers (the pics above should help a bit there) and add spacers later if you feel the need. But judging by the pics, I think not having spacers will look fine, in fact those bulging fronts suggest that the owner's priority for the car is handling rather than just looking good or having big fat rear tires to be a straight-line hero. Good luck though!
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      10-19-2012, 01:04 AM   #14
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Some awesome set-ups! FYI KW Clubsports require a et20 or less in order to run 10" fronts with 275/35 tires. The tires hit the spring (I'm about 2mm away from the spring with et22 9.5" fronts). Some have recommended removing the helper spring to add clearance; I'm not a fan of that idea.
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      10-19-2012, 01:44 AM   #15
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Thanks Randall (OC3) for a very helpful post!
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      10-22-2012, 03:34 PM   #16
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Awesome feedback in this thread, thank you OC3 for your informative posts! The 18x10" ET25 paired with a 275/35/18 is a very popular choice for the e9x M3 for track use, and is what we typically recommend.
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      11-10-2012, 11:16 AM   #17
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Thanks for the informative posts. Just ordered Michelin PSS tires today.
Going from 18x10 et 25 Apex Arc-8 square setup,
staggered 265/35/18 F 285/35/18 R Hankook RS-3 tires
to
275/35/18 Michelin PSS tires.
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      11-12-2012, 01:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmehta211 View Post
Thanks for the informative posts. Just ordered Michelin PSS tires today.
Going from 18x10 et 25 Apex Arc-8 square setup,
staggered 265/35/18 F 285/35/18 R Hankook RS-3 tires
to
275/35/18 Michelin PSS tires.
Sounds like a great decision! Let us know how you like it!
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      12-10-2012, 12:51 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmehta211 View Post
Thanks for the informative posts. Just ordered Michelin PSS tires today.
Going from 18x10 et 25 Apex Arc-8 square setup,
staggered 265/35/18 F 285/35/18 R Hankook RS-3 tires
to
275/35/18 Michelin PSS tires.
I just bought a set of those for my V. I have to change sizes though so I have a 99% new set of PSS for sale in 275/35/18 if anyone wants them. Great tires.
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      12-10-2012, 11:14 AM   #20
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right now i have 265-30-19 ad08s square set up on vmr 19x9.5 et22 and run a rear spacer. no rub at all and both front and rear are flush looking. i just bought a set of apex 18x10 et25 and am going to be running the 275-35-18 nt01s on those. my camber is -2.5 front and -2.0 rear. overall height of the 19 tires is 25.4 and the 18s 25.5. both shorter than the stock rear by almost 3/4 inch i believe. havent noticed anything weird and like the feel now of front turn in and more neutral thru corners,ie less understeer.
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      01-12-2013, 06:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David@ApexRaceParts View Post
Awesome feedback in this thread, thank you OC3 for your informative posts! The 18x10" ET25 paired with a 275/35/18 is a very popular choice for the e9x M3 for track use, and is what we typically recommend.
unlike most of the people here, my car will not be lowered. I was thinking about (4) 18x10s but with 275/40/18 because it will fit the wheel clearance of my car a lot better. What do you guys think? Too big? or is going to 40 series a performance no-no?
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      01-12-2013, 06:45 PM   #22
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Quote:
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unlike most of the people here, my car will not be lowered. I was thinking about (4) 18x10s but with 275/40/18 because it will fit the wheel clearance of my car a lot better. What do you guys think? Too big? or is going to 40 series a performance no-no?
im also at stock ride height. dont think the front will work with that tall of a tire. not sure though.
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1MOREMOD is offline   United_States
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