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      06-23-2013, 09:36 PM   #1
Longwong
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Had a good experience with e85 today

So figured I would try some e85 since every other car seems to like it ( a few gallons that is). Tried 2.5 gallons e85 mixed to 91. Put me at about 20 percent ethanol I believe given the 91 has 10 percent already. Logged with BT tool and went through a full tank of gas in 100 degree weather flogging the car to redline and normal driving just like any other day. Engine temps got up to the bar past the middle. Max timing was hit consistently the same as when I previously had run race gas mix to 95 octane but pulled smoother. The pulls in the really hot weather really pulled hard and guessing the cooling effect of e85 coupled with knock resistant let the engine actually hit full timing whereas with race gas the max timing was never met at hot hot temperatures. Mileage as expected dropped by 15 percent or so. No other issues, no sputtering, misfires, engine lights, idle problems.

Think I will continue this as I find and now see on logs it performs better than race gas. Fuel trims were barely having to work overtime at about 8-10 percent. Plenty of fuel left to go if one wanted to increase the amount. However no need since I am seeing max timing hit.

I have e85 everywhere so its a no brainer to mix
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      06-23-2013, 10:17 PM   #2
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I had no idea we could mix e85 in our cars. I don't really know much about e85 either as we don't have it in Seattle.
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      06-23-2013, 10:26 PM   #3
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Just like meth or even race gas, you hardly hear about it on non turbo/FI cars as the gains are not nearly as much as the turbo, even on stock ECU n54 engined cars they could pick up 20 hp with e85 as it allows the computer to run max boost and timing because it has such a good resistance to knock from both octane and cooling.

Modern cars are built with materials that sustain alcohol no problem and you obviously cannot run all e85 but 20-30 percent usually is well within the a stock fuel pump and system can easily handle. Logging the fuel trims shows you that even with 20 percent the fuel trim only had to be mildly adjusted at 9 percent (it can go up to 30 before throwing a code).

It is an alternative and better than race gas to some extent. I would not run more than 30 percent but really added nice pull to the car and I had never hit max timing with race fuel in 100 plus degree weather so the cooling effect clearly allowed the IAT's to stay down enough to even offer up the max timing tables and thus max timing.

Mileage goes down which for a car with already piss poor mileage that can be a deal breaker for some
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      06-23-2013, 11:01 PM   #4
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Very interesting. I've mixed race gas to 95 or 96 octane and noticed some difference on the track (no logging) but E85 would be much much less expensive. Thanks for reporting your logging results.
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      06-23-2013, 11:47 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longwong View Post
Just like meth or even race gas, you hardly hear about it on non turbo/FI cars as the gains are not nearly as much as the turbo....
Incorrect. Vishnu makes a progressive meth kit for our cars, and there are quite a few members running it; we've (this forum) been talking about E85 for quite some time. We'd like to see an E85 tune by one of the tuners at some point.
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      06-24-2013, 12:54 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
Incorrect. Vishnu makes a progressive meth kit for our cars, and there are quite a few members running it; we've (this forum) been talking about E85 for quite some time. We'd like to see an E85 tune by one of the tuners at some point.
huh? You do rarely hear of people running meth on NA cars and the m3. I know vishnu put out a kit and a few poeple ran it but not many running meth and its certainly not often discussed on a non boosted car. I did not say it did not exist.

Why the tuners can't give us an e85 tune, even for a 50 :50 mix would be awesome. Perhaps there is just not much left to go as for timing benefit and 34 degrees which is where most tunes are at now is pretty aggressive and likely makes full power
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      06-24-2013, 09:34 AM   #7
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What mods do u have on your car? Would this be safe for any tuned vehicle or supercharged car?
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      06-24-2013, 09:42 AM   #8
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I have one of the common 3 tunes on this board. I am catless, drop in filter and a tune. Not an e85 specific tune. As long as you don't exceed about 25 percent e85 you have no trouble with no safety problem. Log your car with the BT tool periodically and you can see the car runs perfect a/f, LTFT is 4 when I ran it again which is nothing and the fuel pump and injectors are barely overworking. As long as all the spark plugs are relatively new and your coils are good than you are set. I tried it in another NA car and found I would get misfire with older plugs that did not misfire with straight gas.

It is really noticeable power and for some reason a level of smoothness that was shocking. Its 3.30 a gallon so way cheaper than race gas. I put in 3 gallons and 13 gallons 91 and it costs no more than a fillup with 91 but I get 93 octane plus additional cooling benefit which probably make it closer to 94 octane. People with 93 octane available could get 95 octane but not sure it is necessary as I am hitting the max timing targets with a 91/ e85 mix to about 93 but with some extra cooling over straight 93
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      06-24-2013, 10:06 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longwong View Post
huh? You do rarely hear of people running meth on NA cars and the m3. I know vishnu put out a kit and a few poeple ran it but not many running meth and its certainly not often discussed on a non boosted car. I did not say it did not exist.
Incorrect again. *You* might rarely hear of people running meth on NA cars, but I and others on this forum have been in the car scene for quite a bit, and meth has always been known to help, especially in American muscle cars. So has toulene. All of it increases the effective octane rating, rather cheaply, I might add, so what you're discussing is old news, really. While no one here has been outspoken about such things, it probably has more to do with cars being under warranty and the fact that BMW watches this board. They probably wouldn't be inclined to do engine related warranty work if they found out you were using methanol/toulene/mixing e85 to achieve better performance.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=828396

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636636

www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=701523

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=681802

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=762930



Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
I would not put e85 in a supercharged car! I actually wouldn't put e85 in any M3 unless your car is tuned for it, has additional fuel pumps and different injectors.
*STRAIGHT E85*, I'd be on the fence about, as you have to be more cognizant about maintaining the methanol itself, but if you're talking *mixed* e85, you already do. Next time you fill up, if you check your pump; like the majority of gas in American, it already contains up to 10% ethanol. Adding a couple gallons more won't kill anything, but it will decrease your fuel economy a bit (like that's really any consideration if you have an M3 *lol*)

Last edited by whats77inaname; 06-24-2013 at 10:23 AM.
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      06-24-2013, 10:28 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
10% ethanol in 93 octane is hardly close to e85. It is a big no-no if you run a supercharger! The correct fuel is very, very important when you run these set-ups, especially with higher power SC's.
I'm going to have to disagree. If you're boosted, you shouldn't run LOW octane gas. That's already an issue as the car requires premium unleaded only.

Increasing the octane rating hasn't shown to be a problem. Adding E85 is doing exactly that. Think about it....guys go the track all the time w/their s/c E9x cars and run varying mixtures of race gas/regular gas, with some even running straight race gas.
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      06-24-2013, 10:55 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
The problem is that e85 increases the wear and tear on the hardware, it is more corrosive and our lines are not designed for that. So you might see a short-term benefit, but I would question the long-term reliability of the fuel pump, lines and other crucial components.

"Wear and tear" says the guy that was running a VT-625 Do you think the S65 was designed for a s/c? Doesn't the s/c increase wear/tear on hardware, as well?

I'd say the biggest problem is that the alcohol content of E85 can vary, so you need a dependable source that is proven to not have much variance. I agree that if you're running *full* E85, you should change the pump, o-rings and injectors, but at that point, you really need a tune to take advantage of it. However, putting in a gallon or 2 when you fill up? You would be hard-pressed to convince me that the wear would increase that much more, to the point where I would be concerned about doing it.

It all comes down to what you're comfortable doing to your car. Personally, I'd run toulene before I mixed in E85, but that's just me. It's a lot more chemically stable than E85.

Last edited by whats77inaname; 06-24-2013 at 11:21 AM.
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      06-24-2013, 11:09 AM   #12
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God I wish Cali had better gas than the crap 91, would make things so much easier lol
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      06-24-2013, 11:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE-FN-MAN View Post
God I wish Cali had better gas than the crap 91, would make things so much easier lol
One of the reasons I love TX....93 all day, every day *lol*
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      06-24-2013, 11:25 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE-FN-MAN View Post
God I wish Cali had better gas than the crap 91, would make things so much easier lol
we do some gas
stations have 100 Oct
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      06-24-2013, 11:59 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
No need for being condescending, yes, the S65 motor was not designed to have a supercharger, thank you for that rhetorical question. And yes, it can cause more wear and tear if you don't properly maintain it. I'd rather run a 625 kit than filling it up with e85 without modifying the fuel system. But I think we are in agreement, you need to properly tune your car if you run e85 alone, if you mix a little it won't be an issue, but at that point I doubt you really see much of a difference besides a placebo effect.
I wasn't being condescending, so I apologize if it came across like that. I just found it ironic you were concerned about wear and tear but you were running a s/c, er, that's all. I honestly think it's more than a placebo effect. If the effective octane rating is raised, power is raised, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
My main argument was that you shouldn't mix e85 while running a supercharger (a poster here asked that very question). The tune is specifically designed with 93 octane in mind, and at high power kits this becomes very important, especially fuel delivery.
Not true. The very kit you ran has an option for a 91 octane tune.

http://www.esstuning.com/products/E9...er-System.html

They request to know the "mimimum octane" rating, not the max. Hence, my statement, you shouldn't run LESS octane, but more isn't an issue.

Additionally, if that were the case, you never addressed my question as to how guys are running race gas/pump gas mixes with the sole purpose of doing the same thing the E85 does.

Last edited by whats77inaname; 06-24-2013 at 12:40 PM.
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      06-24-2013, 01:27 PM   #16
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Bump for Roman. Would be curious if I could splash some E85 in my tank with my piss water 91 octane up here.
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      06-24-2013, 01:40 PM   #17
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Tht was the basis for my question as well in regards to how a supercharged car would act. I don't know much about tunes and all that and I was mainly looking for an level of protection (higher octane) more than anything else. I figured a little extra safety net beer hurts
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      06-24-2013, 04:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE-FN-MAN View Post
Tht was the basis for my question as well in regards to how a supercharged car would act. I don't know much about tunes and all that and I was mainly looking for an level of protection (higher octane) more than anything else. I figured a little extra safety net beer hurts
The fuel pump is close to being maxed out as it is on Stock engines with blowers. As Philip said you would need more pump and injectors to run a mix, a tune as well. I have twin pumps, and larger injectors with my VT3, so I can run a mix safely, just as the N54 guys have done for quite awhile. I'm pretty sure Gintani would advise against running a mix with a blower on the stock fuel pump.
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      06-24-2013, 05:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
The problem is that e85 increases the wear and tear on the hardware, it is more corrosive and our lines are not designed for that. So you might see a short-term benefit, but I would question the long-term reliability of the fuel pump, lines and other crucial components.

sorry but the "corrosive" stories are not at all prevlant on newer modern engines after the 90s.

yes e85 burns at almosy 2x the rate of gasoline thereby requiring bigger injectors and definitely a bigger pump but no components will be damaged from the corrosive apsect of e85 .
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      06-24-2013, 05:17 PM   #20
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Too high octane and you are going backwards without proper tune. Most power is made with least amount of octane shy of detonation.




Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
I wasn't being condescending, so I apologize if it came across like that. I just found it ironic you were concerned about wear and tear but you were running a s/c, er, that's all. I honestly think it's more than a placebo effect. If the effective octane rating is raised, power is raised, as well.

.
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      06-24-2013, 05:17 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
The fuel pump is close to being maxed out as it is on Stock engines with blowers. As Philip said you would need more pump and injectors to run a mix, a tune as well. I have twin pumps, and larger injectors with my VT3, so I can run a mix safely, just as the N54 guys have done for quite awhile. I'm pretty sure Gintani would advise against running a mix with a blower on the stock fuel pump.

if you have bigger injectors than stock and a large pump, forget a mix. If e85 is readily available to you I would def try a tune out on some e85. The car would absolutley make some power. It's not as benficial just runinng it though and I don't know why the others in this thread think otherwise.

Its characterisitics are not like gasoline and the car needs to be tuned to run e85.
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      06-24-2013, 05:33 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCMpower View Post
Too high octane and you are going backwards without proper tune. Most power is made with least amount of octane shy of detonation.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...8&postcount=14

Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
I agree that if you're running *full* E85, you should change the pump, o-rings and injectors, but at that point, you really need a tune to take advantage of it.
Please stay in the context of what we're talking about, which is adding a couple gallons of E85 in the fuel tank. What type of fuel is readily available to the general public that has *that* high of an octane rating that can cause power loss? People on this forum run 50/50 race gas/pump gas mixtures in their cars, and I know I've seen posts where people have run straight race gas . Given that, I'd be hard pressed to believe that someone will have too much octane when mixing 1-2 gals of E85 w/14-15 gallons of premium unleaded.
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