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      08-09-2007, 10:54 AM   #89
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
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Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Thats YOUR definition, but it's wrong. A manual transmission cannot shift itself, unless it has an outside source do so.
I said: "The classification of an automatic transmission depends on whether or not you have to shift it. If you don't have to shift, it's an automatic."

So far, we're in agreement.

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Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
SMG had a linkage not of cables, but of electrical wire, that sent instant signal from the driver to actuators that made the gear shifts for the driver when he triggered them. Since the actuators are physically shifting the transmission for you, it also feathers the clutch.
It does, but you don't. Therefore the "control" you wax enthusiastic about in a stick gearbox is missing.

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Once the linkage to the tranny was made electrical (instead of mechanical) you could have a mini-computer enabled to shift those actuators for the driver if they didn't want to shift themselves. Even though when in that mode, it shifts with no driver interaction, it is still 100% manual gearbox. A computer is doing the shifting.
Tell you what, chief. Do some homework on automatics, and you'll find out that a computer is now doing the shifting for you in them, as well.

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Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
In an Automatic, it works just the opposite. The automatic gearbox changes gears without driver interaction, and only when "sport mode" is engaged, is the driver able to over-ride/interfere and limit the shifts to only the gear he wants.
So, with either a "traditional" automatic or an SMG, the transmission either shifts gears automatically, or lets you shift them manually? Hmm.

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Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Automatics have no clutch and arn't 100% mechanical but fluid driven and have torque converters.
Yes, "traditional" automatics are designed differently, but with the same idea in mind for the driver.

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Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Mechanically there are quit different, technically aswell. An automatic will shift with no outside source, it's uses hydraulics and spring valves, electro-mechanical servos..etc. Yet, the only oil in a manual gearbox is for lubrication.
Yes, I've already agreed that they have differing designs, but either will shift on thier own.

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Your doing yourself a grave injustice thinking an automatic in "sport mode" is the same thing as SMG or DSG...!
From a driver's standpoint, they operate the same. Are they the same? Not in design, and in general the SMG is more efficient and takes less power to run. I say they are automatics because the driver needn't shift them.

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Post script: CVT's are neither, their CVT! Obviously, there are no gears, just gear ratios. No shifting, yet they way they are engineered to operate, by nature is automatic. Whats your point?
My point is that the way they are engineered to operate, by nature they are an automatic. Essentially, that's apparently your point as well.

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Also, under your definition, if you had your passenger shifting gears for you, that car now is an automatic..?
Really? If a transmission requires outside intervention to operate it's a stick. If it doesn't, it's an automatic. What about this don't you get?

Look, as I told Swamp, I'm perfectly willing to call out design differences, but my working definition is perfectly logical. As I also mentioned to him, even the EPA calls out differences. They say, as an example, that the SMG box in the M5 or M6 is an automatic, but go on to say that it's "select shift".

That works for me. Why not for you?

Bruce
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      08-09-2007, 06:14 PM   #90
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      08-09-2007, 07:30 PM   #91
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Wow, someone on topic....
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      08-09-2007, 08:25 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I said: "The classification of an automatic transmission depends on whether or not you have to shift it. If you don't have to shift, it's an automatic."

So far, we're in agreement.

It does, but you don't. Therefore the "control" you wax enthusiastic about in a stick gearbox is missing.

Tell you what, chief. Do some homework on automatics, and you'll find out that a computer is now doing the shifting for you in them, as well.

So, with either a "traditional" automatic or an SMG, the transmission either shifts gears automatically, or lets you shift them manually? Hmm.

Yes, "traditional" automatics are designed differently, but with the same idea in mind for the driver.

Yes, I've already agreed that they have differing designs, but either will shift on thier own.

From a driver's standpoint, they operate the same. Are they the same? Not in design, and in general the SMG is more efficient and takes less power to run. I say they are automatics because the driver needn't shift them.

My point is that the way they are engineered to operate, by nature they are an automatic. Essentially, that's apparently your point as well.

Really? If a transmission requires outside intervention to operate it's a stick. If it doesn't, it's an automatic. What about this don't you get?

Look, as I told Swamp, I'm perfectly willing to call out design differences, but my working definition is perfectly logical. As I also mentioned to him, even the EPA calls out differences. They say, as an example, that the SMG box in the M5 or M6 is an automatic, but go on to say that it's "select shift".

That works for me. Why not for you?

Bruce


NO, an SMG can be programmed to shift for you, but it is not an "Automatic transmission."

I can see there is no argeuing about this technial side because you take everything to an opinion. The gearbox is what we are talking about, Some gear boxes just have gears, other have servos and valves and torque converters.

Your obviously avoiding the technical aspect of this conversation for a reason. Either your purposely doing this or your ignorant of the facts. Automatics don't have clutches. Technically, they way they shift are different aswell.

HERE, read that and educate yourself somewhat so you can enjoy the finer aspects of things to come.

btw, your argeument is illogical and makes as much sense as calling an airplane sitting on the groound a Car, because it is not in the air, you cannot call it an Airplane... lol

It works for you because you don't care to maintain a knowledge base from a engineering or technical aspect.






-Garrett

(more)

Yes, really (having passenger shift for you), because that exactly the way the SMG works. When you operate the SMG in "automatic mode" is not an automatic, it just that the gear shifting is now shifting via a mini-computer in the engine bay. The gearbox (transmission) is still the same except, the outside input comes from the same computer that used to take YOUR inputs and relay them to the gearbox, now relays it's own input as when to shift.

The gearbox still cannot shift on it's own, it's dumb it can only do what is physically told to do. Albeit from a mechanical cable attached to a stick, or an electrical wire attached to a tiny piston that actuats the gears simulating the cable.. which is CONTROLLED by the operator with paddle shifters or a seperate onboard computer.
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      08-09-2007, 10:09 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
NO, an SMG can be programmed to shift for you, but it is not an "Automatic transmission."

I can see there is no argeuing about this technial side because you take everything to an opinion. The gearbox is what we are talking about, Some gear boxes just have gears, other have servos and valves and torque converters.

Your obviously avoiding the technical aspect of this conversation for a reason. Either your purposely doing this or your ignorant of the facts. Automatics don't have clutches. Technically, they way they shift are different aswell.

HERE, read that and educate yourself somewhat so you can enjoy the finer aspects of things to come.

btw, your argeument is illogical and makes as much sense as calling an airplane sitting on the groound a Car, because it is not in the air, you cannot call it an Airplane... lol

It works for you because you don't care to maintain a knowledge base from a engineering or technical aspect.






-Garrett

(more)

Yes, really (having passenger shift for you), because that exactly the way the SMG works. When you operate the SMG in "automatic mode" is not an automatic, it just that the gear shifting is now shifting via a mini-computer in the engine bay. The gearbox (transmission) is still the same except, the outside input comes from the same computer that used to take YOUR inputs and relay them to the gearbox, now relays it's own input as when to shift.

The gearbox still cannot shift on it's own, it's dumb it can only do what is physically told to do. Albeit from a mechanical cable attached to a stick, or an electrical wire attached to a tiny piston that actuats the gears simulating the cable.. which is CONTROLLED by the operator with paddle shifters or a seperate onboard computer.
Tell you what chief. This is all about opinion. In my opinion (and in the EPA's opinion), the BMW SMG box is an automatic. In your opinion, it's a stick.

This is hardly important, is it? In my words to Swamp, it's stupendously inconsequential.

Having rebuilt both sticks and automatics over the years, my knowledge is at least sufficient to have an opinion and the ability to defend it. However, as you've cleverly discovered after however many days now, my argument is simply not technical, but practical. Technically, I'm perfectly OK with you calling out differences between gearboxes, and using specific names for them.

Why aren't you OK with a practical argument?

Bruce
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      08-10-2007, 04:38 AM   #94
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M3, because it's not about numbers, it's about the M philosophy. The C-class is just a C-class with a big engine and some suspension twiddling. The M3 goes way beyond that.
I think BMW knows how to sell their 'M philosophy' to their fans. I have not heard anyone saying M3 is a E92 with a big engine and some suspension twiddling. Nevertheless, my vote goes to M3 this time mainly its significant weight reduction over the C63.
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      08-10-2007, 06:24 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Tell you what chief. This is all about opinion. In my opinion (and in the EPA's opinion), the BMW SMG box is an automatic. In your opinion, it's a stick.

This is hardly important, is it? In my words to Swamp, it's stupendously inconsequential.

Having rebuilt both sticks and automatics over the years, my knowledge is at least sufficient to have an opinion and the ability to defend it. However, as you've cleverly discovered after however many days now, my argument is simply not technical, but practical. Technically, I'm perfectly OK with you calling out differences between gearboxes, and using specific names for them.

Why aren't you OK with a practical argument?

Bruce

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      08-10-2007, 08:41 AM   #96
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M3 cause its the legend and keeps getting better with time, and I just dont like the hooked up c-class look, maybe its just me.
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      08-10-2007, 08:49 AM   #97
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M3. Screw an automatic in cars like those.
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      08-10-2007, 01:06 PM   #98
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The two cars will be priced very close to one another, so what's the point with "price no issue?"
If price is no issue, neither car. GT3 is my choice.
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      08-10-2007, 02:29 PM   #99
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I'm down for the M3 but the C63 is a real looker IMO. It is going to be tempting, no doubt. Can't wait to see the comparos.
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      01-15-2011, 04:35 AM   #100
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Mercedes get the "big" picture but BMW has the small details you simply don't get anywhere else.

+ service plan in the US
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      01-15-2011, 12:36 PM   #101
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c class is straight up hideous
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      01-15-2011, 12:58 PM   #102
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LOL at thread revival.
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      01-15-2011, 05:45 PM   #103
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Don't have any use for a 4 door sedan, C63 or M3 sedan, so for me it's easy. E92 M3.
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      01-15-2011, 06:15 PM   #104
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M3 all the way !!!
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      01-15-2011, 06:18 PM   #105
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I would take the M3 over the C63. Here is my review/observations when my friend and I took both cars out:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=m3+c63
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      01-15-2011, 10:41 PM   #106
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Funny this thread would start back up, just drove a C63 today. I have to say it was fun, but I wasn't impressed as much with it as the M3.
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      01-15-2011, 11:32 PM   #107
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Funny this thread would start back up, just drove a C63 today. I have to say it was fun, but I wasn't impressed as much with it as the M3.
What didn't you like about the C63 and what appeals to you about the M3? I was 51/49 in favor of the C63 and I need a new car early fall when my lease is up. I still am considering getting an M3 as it finishes its run.
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      01-15-2011, 11:37 PM   #108
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Sedan or coupe.......apples to oranges
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      01-16-2011, 12:18 AM   #109
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LOL at thread revival.
No shit. O seven!
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      01-16-2011, 08:40 AM   #110
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I think this thread actually predates the "vs..." forum. Yeah, its that old.
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