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      08-03-2007, 07:45 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a burrito View Post
You make quite the point. I was thinking the same, the majority who have picked the m3 over the c63 say it handles better but how many of these people put the car to the limit? I am positive in real-world everyday street driving, the c63 will more than suffice. However, geometry-wise, i guess we have to accept that our sporty touring-cars now have to have big v8's and heavy curb weight. Quite the sports car eh?

However, I do believe that with all the additions that the m division has added to the newer m3 has made all the extra flab and cylinders put to much sporty-good use. So good, that the car performs about 10% better than the e46 m3. Note that the e46 m3 didnt really need anything more to be perfect, it was essentially perfect in my eyes.

Ok back on the topic. So we are going to consider buying these two cars based on their rarity and since both have been specially treated with amg and ///m dynamics, can you justify the price difference and uniqueness between the c350 and the c63, 335 and the m3? I mean, at this price range and preferences, you can easily get a discounted regular 911 that has similar or even better performance than the m3 and c63. So are you really looking for that sporty car at this point? Did i mention that I doubt half of you guys track to put the car to its potential?

I must have missed your answer...
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      08-03-2007, 07:58 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It is important to keep in mind that the M-DCT will be available at the launch of the car in the US. To ignore M-DCT now is to ignore the car's impending release entirely.

Point taken.

I'm not sure how to apply the word "destroy" to every-day driving. Are you talking about stop-light racing?

Nope. As I carefully mentioned, the C63, with all that torque, will be effortlessly fast when just driving around. The M3 will need more revs (and more perceived "effort") to achieve the same levels of everyday performance, although it'll likely be just about as quick as the C63 in an actual race.

I find effortlessly quick cars to be quite alluring.


Either way, the fact that the AMG's have had more torque in the past hasn't stopped the M from being the leader in the segment and the more fun to drive car overall. It might be different this time around, but that has not yet been decided.
I agree - but I personally don't give a damn who sells more cars, or what the past has brought us.

Bruce
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      08-03-2007, 08:05 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by gtb75 View Post
Possibly, but how much power do you really need for everyday driving? Neither of the cars we're talking about here are going to be slow... Yes you'll probably need to wind out the M3 more to hang with the C63 in normal driving, but I'm sure it'll be more than adequate. I still maintain that the M3 will probably be a more entertaining / fun car to drive than the C63, and that means more to me than simple straight line speed.
As just mentioned above, I personally have a jones for effortlessly quick cars.

The M3 may well indeed be a more entertaining drive than the C63, and if there's a significant difference there, I'd tend to favor the M3 in terms of which I'd be most likely to buy.

However, Mercedes is apparently getting its act together around handling, so for those of us who don't give a damn about any particular manufacturer, this is a very interesting scenario we have unfolding before us.

Bruce
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      08-03-2007, 08:32 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I (we?) are expecting the BMW M-DCT to be quite similar to the VW DSG, all of the same priciples and benefits are there. A huge part of the performance will be in the actuators and software as well. Here, and for a car like the M3, I expect BMW to have a unit substantially better than the Borg Warner supplied VW unit. Speculation, but totally reasonable.

I tend to agree.

In rergards to power to weight did you see my post here? It is likely that the M3 will have a slight but better power to weight whereas the MB will clearly win in torque to weight.

Your post is purely speculative, and very probably incorrect. As an example of automatic transmission "inefficiencies", the Steptronic loses, at most, about ten HP to the rear wheels in a 335i, based on reading a huge number of posts on the topic, with posted graphical results. Lets say that the C63 loses enough power to make it even with the M3 on a power-to-weight basis, and call it quits.

F = ma and T = r x F. A torque advantage itself is indeed utterly meaningless when it comes to acceleration; increase the mass and all of the benefits of the torque are negated by the larger mass. This is the case at any rpm as well - the physics is rpm independent!
You are 100% percent correct - and my apologies. I tend to spend a fair amount of effort at being clear, and screwed up. It's the torque-to-weight advantage that I am referring to. The C63 will have an advantage over the M3 in everyday driving because it will be effortlessly quick by comparison. Low revs, low noise - and you're out of there. The M3 *can* be as quick, but with more perceived "effort".

I like effortlessly fast cars. Hey, whatever floats one's boat, though.

Bruce
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      08-03-2007, 08:50 AM   #49
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So then is a 335i not good around town? I don't think anyone would say that.
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      08-03-2007, 09:07 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Hogwash!

You do realize the M3 will have an 8400rpm limit, don't you? If your just "sporting" around town in the stick, you'll be able to take THAT corner without the worry of shifting....!

I have no idea what you are referring to, but it obviously isn't anything in my post...

Secondly, even if you do have to shift, might as well "blip" and toss the ass-end out a few degrees to give you that adrenaline rush.

Thats something you won't be doing in the MB!

If you're referring to sticks being more enjoyable to drive, that's a matter of opinion, and in this case I fully agree. On the other hand, I don't indulge in the kind of antics you're describing on the street, which is what I think you're referring to. On track is a different matter...

THEN... if you chose the M-DCT option, your hole argeument is moot about shifting. Big "torqy" engines are great for the power and feeling they deliver, but being able to hang a higher average speed threw that intersection with rev's high.... WILL be more exciting than hitting the turn and have an automatic make you feel like your attacking the corner.

-Garrett
I agree that "Big "torqy" engines are great for the power and feeling they deliver". That was my entire point.

I don't think you get it about automatics. You can hit that corner with any revs you please with either a stick or auto.

Bruce
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      08-03-2007, 09:29 AM   #51
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if money is no option i'll take a mclaren F1. but this is m3post.com, so asking that question was stupid.
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      08-03-2007, 09:39 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I agree that "Big "torqy" engines are great for the power and feeling they deliver". That was my entire point.

I don't think you get it about automatics. You can hit that corner with any revs you please with either a stick or auto.

Bruce
Not sure what your getting at. But if your implying that you have as much control with an auto as you do with a stick.... thats absurd. Of the many things under your control you've just removed 1 aspect from your FOV.

There are skilled shifters out there, and can shift under power during a normal turn at a street intersection and keep it at the edge or just beyond in a balanced controlled exit.

That level of performance (exactatude) can not be acheived with an automatic...!!





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      08-03-2007, 09:41 AM   #53
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Nope. As I carefully mentioned, the C63, with all that torque, will be effortlessly fast when just driving around. The M3 will need more revs (and more perceived "effort") to achieve the same levels of everyday performance, although it'll likely be just about as quick as the C63 in an actual race.
I do recall you saying something to that effect, but not in the same post where you used the term "destroy" so it was not apparent to me what you were referring to.

I guess for me when I'm driving, I don't spend to much time thinking about what particular situation I am in at a given time and which other cars I could be driving that would "destroy" mine if I were driving them instead, or "destroy" me if someone else happened to be driving them near by. That's not to say I don't want the most car for my money. I just figure every car has its tradeoffs. In the past, maybe the MB has had too many. This time things might change. But we don't know yet.

Quote:
I find effortlessly quick cars to be quite alluring.
I like fast cars too, but I don't find the amount of effort required to make my current car feel fun is at all a detrement. Actually, I like the high strung nature of the motor because it tends to beg you to hammer it more, and who doesn't like redlining a high perfomance car? That's my kind of fun. I think most M3 owners feel that way. That's why we chose the car. Plus, there are plenty of "effortlessly fast" cars out there that are less fun than an M3. Some would point to the 335i as one of them. Personally I think they are both fun, though very different in character.

Quote:
I agree - but I personally don't give a damn who sells more cars, or what the past has brought us.
Righto. But you seem pretty sure the C63 will "destroy" the new M3. We are talking about the past because some of the reasons you give for that conclusion are the same as they have always been. Now, we all know MB has really worked on the chassis this time round. That will surely help. I just with they'd sell a two door version of the car that doesn't cost $90k or $130k
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      08-03-2007, 09:51 AM   #54
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Hey sorry for the OT post, but Bruce I just want to ask a small favor. When you split up someone's post to reply to it, can you add the [quote ] and [/quote ] tags around each section? The red is fine too, but its hard to reply to your posts without those tags inserted properly.

Thanks
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      08-03-2007, 09:52 AM   #55
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bimmers get you laid faster... more important than any 0-60!
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      08-03-2007, 10:15 AM   #56
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honestly, I've been an M3 "die hard" fanatic since the time I used to drive a Toyota Celica (college) -> Mitsu. Eclipse(intern) -> E46 M3 (grad).

Now... I'm contemplating because the MB torque, massive aggressive-front/bumper/flares looks awesome to me. Except, I heard from this thread that the interior if seen "in person" is cheesy on the new Cs(thanks for the info) and "limited ext color" choice, the BACK is FUGLY (sorry).

I've yet to hear more reviews.... I really hope M3 would still stand out, maybe not overall but the "FUN to drive" and look.....

This forum also made me realize that the price are not apart to each other C63 AMG and M3.

definitely no to RS4 or RS5 though
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      08-03-2007, 10:19 AM   #57
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bimmers get you laid faster... more important than any 0-60!
:rocks: bro, totally agree....
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      08-03-2007, 12:29 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
However, Mercedes is apparently getting its act together around handling, so for those of us who don't give a damn about any particular manufacturer, this is a very interesting scenario we have unfolding before us.

Bruce
+1

I agree 100%... Like I said in my original post to this thread - I can't believe I'm seriously considering a MB. Between the E90 M3 and C63 (even the RS4), it's simply amazing that you'll be able to get a sedan with this level of performance in the near future!

I own C6 Z06 and think there's a good chance that one of these "super sedans" will be able to suffice as my only car in a few years... No, it won't be as fast as my C6Z on the track (7:43 lap on the Ring), but seeing as I only do 4-5 HPDE's a year, I'm sure it'll suffice
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      08-03-2007, 03:10 PM   #59
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Uhhh, not

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Your post is purely speculative, and very probably incorrect. As an example of automatic transmission "inefficiencies", the Steptronic loses, at most, about ten HP to the rear wheels in a 335i, based on reading a huge number of posts on the topic, with posted graphical results.
Well you can view validated, science based simulation as "speculation" all day, whatever way you want to delude yourself. Do you know how cars, rocket, ships and airplanes are desinged today...Did you notice how many different cars validate in an incredibly accurate way with CarTest? Do you realize CarTest is a physics based simulation tool? If the assumptions and values for slush box losses in CarTest are wrong it would likely not validate so well.

The 335i automatic probably does not have less tranny losses - it is absolutely under-rated by BMW.

I'd be willing to bet the C63 slush box loses AT LEAST 30 hp just from the tranny, not the rest of the drive train or other parastic losses. More likely closer to 40.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Lets say that the C63 loses enough power to make it even with the M3 on a power-to-weight basis, and call it quits.
OK now I am really confused you begin by saying all I am doing is speculating and "very probably incorrect" and then you close by totally agreeing with me.

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      08-03-2007, 04:01 PM   #60
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what concerns me most most about this thread is ScottyGams' avatar.
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      08-04-2007, 02:49 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILC32 View Post
Excuse me, but this is all BS.

Neither the C63 or M3 are track machines. Yes, one will likely be better on the track than the other, but anyone who buys one of these cars primarily for track use is deluding themselves, as is anyone who thinks that either car is soooo extreme it is somehow too compromised on the road.

And I think this BS about whether a buyer will handle the car "at the limit" or take it to its "potential" is laughable. You may think your skillz are so superior that only you "deserve" either of these cars, but here's a newsflash: anyone with the cash will be able to buy one, whether they share your lofty abilities or not. Here's another: people will get the car they want, not the car they truly need. Welcome to reality.
You have terrible reading comprehension. You really missed the point. Thanks but try again.
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      08-04-2007, 06:25 AM   #62
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You have terrible reading comprehension. You really missed the point. Thanks but try again.
Sure thing, slick.
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      08-04-2007, 06:51 AM   #63
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Having owned both BMWs ( 550i) and Benz (current ride) i will have to go with the M3.
The M3 is like a finely tuned scalpel while the AMG is like a hammer,yes both are exremely fast and lustworthy but to hear that 8,400 redline,that finely tuned sinewy suspension and the general cohesiveness of the M3 all add up to the legendary black magic that BMW bestows on all M automobiles.
Also the AMG engines at full tilt tend to sound rough and tractor like as the revs build,current GF drives 2006 SLK 55 and even though it is eyeball bending fast the whole package does not feel as symbiotic as my boss Z4 M.
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      08-04-2007, 07:58 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Hey sorry for the OT post, but Bruce I just want to ask a small favor. When you split up someone's post to reply to it, can you add the [quote ] and [/quote ] tags around each section? The red is fine too, but its hard to reply to your posts without those tags inserted properly.

Thanks
I've seen other posts that do multiple quotes (note: in tinted boxes), with specific replies to each. That seems to be the more elegant way of doing it - but I have no clue as to how that is done. Can you or someone give me a pointer?

Thanks,

Bruce
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      08-04-2007, 08:25 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Not sure what your getting at. But if your implying that you have as much control with an auto as you do with a stick.... thats absurd. Of the many things under your control you've just removed 1 aspect from your FOV.

There are skilled shifters out there, and can shift under power during a normal turn at a street intersection and keep it at the edge or just beyond in a balanced controlled exit.

That level of performance (exactatude) can not be acheived with an automatic...!!

-Garrett
I simply said that you can hit that corner in whatever gear you like with either a stick or automatic. That's obvious, right?

In that comment, I wasn't implying that you have as much control with an automatic as with a stick, but now that you mention it, you pretty much do.

In terms of skilled shifters, *nobody* powershifts in a 90 degree turn - at least, not if you're at or near the limit. It upsets the chassis, and at the very least, you're going to be spending the next several seconds trying to gather it back up, assuming you don't prang anything. At that point, the other guy (who did the corner correctly) is way the hell up there where you won't catch him.

In regard to automatics vs sticks: While you weren't looking, they got a bunch better, and sticks didn't. Today's best autos are flat better (meaning faster and more responsive, while maintaining smoothness) than today's best sticks. I've been powershifting since I got my first new car (a '64 TriPower GTO), but I can't match the shift speeds of nearly any good automatic, obviously including today's stick-without-a-clutch-pedal autos. Likewise, I have several thousand track miles under my (rather massive) belt, and have been instructiing in those venues for the last couple of years, but I can't consistently rev-match on downshifts (while braking for a turn) as well as today's best autos can.

My position is that the feeling of control you get while driving a stick is now largely an illusion. Automatics just flat get it done.

By the way, I've been a stick guy for over 40 years, so all this flat pisses me off. I may have to join the dark side with my next car, just because autos are now effortlessly quicker than sticks.

Bruce
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      08-04-2007, 08:37 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
...I like fast cars too, but I don't find the amount of effort required to make my current car feel fun is at all a detrement. Actually, I like the high strung nature of the motor because it tends to beg you to hammer it more, and who doesn't like redlining a high perfomance car? That's my kind of fun. I think most M3 owners feel that way. That's why we chose the car. Plus, there are plenty of "effortlessly fast" cars out there that are less fun than an M3. Some would point to the 335i as one of them. Personally I think they are both fun, though very different in character...
My infatuation with effortlessly fast cars is based on the fact that I'm married.

You can really haul the mail without your right-seat significant other noticing, not to mention the cops. Then, when you're interested in going for it, you can enjoy all the cool noises and adrenaline rush that goes with reaching for the red line.

Bruce
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