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      08-02-2007, 09:06 AM   #23
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Check out the test drive of the C63 on the Edmunds.com web site. Best MB that they have ever driven - handle great! I think that for the far and away majority, the choice between the C63 and M3 will be based primarily on style preference, not performance or handling - and possibly price.
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      08-02-2007, 09:17 AM   #24
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m3 4 me

M3 (September 07 build) because were I come from M cars hold their value for years where RS and AMG cars get discounted a few months after launch. I must add though I have my name down for the C63 as an insurance.
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      08-02-2007, 10:17 AM   #25
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Both pretty sexy cars. Fast straight line, heavy, beautiful (c63 more so), refined, special, and has quite the exhaust note. All biased and hate aside, what would you pick?

Personally, I would go for the c63 for many many reasons. The decision obviously lies on perspective and what you've read and seen in pictures so I think the edge is pretty even. Note that none of us have driven any of these cares.


So what's your pick?
Maybe the C63.

BMW continues the M3 tradition of building altogether better cars with each iteration that are less fun to drive than the previous version. They handle *very* well, but are less tossable with each new model because of increased size and weight. The new one will likely be a winner because the increased torque will make the performance more available in everyday driving, but it won't make you chuckle in everyday driving like the first one did. See that 90-degree intersection ahead of you with the green light? Make the left in your E30 (you'll be calling it a "left-hander"), and the car is small enough, and the chassis responsive enough so that you can get your jollies even in that restricted venue.

On the other hand, the new one will need a broader canvas to do its best, but will likely make you giggle when you get an open road ahead of you and goose it.

Of course it will have that back-road banditry excellence baked into its DNA, which is perhaps the best characteristic of BMWs in general. Find a less-than-perfect twisty back road, and BMWs will make you feel like a hero.

M-B, on the other hand, seems to be rediscovering the joys of really good handling. We'll see with the new car, but I have high hopes. I'm thinking these cars will be pretty close in stop-watch performance in a straight line or around a road course, but in everyday driving the C63 will blow the M3 so far into the weeds that you'll need a GPS (or at least a compass) to get back onto paved roads. Reason: That terrific torque curve, and more importantly, it's got that great automatic. Automatics are quicker during typical street driving because the driver needn't taper off on the gas before the shift, pause to allow rev-match during the shift before reengaging the clutch, and smoothly add gas to get back to the desired acceleration. The auto driver just stays on it while the auto power shifts, using simultaneous clutch release (current gear) and engagement (next gear), and relying on the torque converter to smooth the action.

The auto will also shift down faster than even a good driver with a stick can do it.

If you spend 98% of your driving time just driving around (even sporty driving), and 2% of your driving time racing, then the auto will be quicker 98% of the time. They are simply faster and more responsive than sticks in anything but race conditions.

Combined with that heroic torque curve, the C63 will be an absolute bullet in casual driving.

I'm a snick-snick stick guy myself, but that C63 will be awfully tempting.

Bruce

Edit: PS - If BMW comes out with a DSG-like box (a la Volkswagen/Audi), that might make enough of a difference - but it'll still be down on torque.
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      08-02-2007, 10:40 AM   #26
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It could just be that unlike the M3, the C63 has had some pretty ropey predecessors to compare to?
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      08-02-2007, 10:51 AM   #27
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I would pick the RS4..

(just screwin with you). Between those two I would easily go with the M3.. and thats saying a lot since I think its butt ugly.

Just like they said above, because of their handling history, I have little respect for an AMG.. about as much as I have for a US muscle car.
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      08-02-2007, 11:03 AM   #28
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M3 for 2 personal annoying reasons:

1) MB always over-priced
2) I can only picture silver color on that car....that freaking color is all over the road for MB, let alone the C class
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      08-02-2007, 11:14 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
...and more importantly, it's got that great automatic. Automatics are quicker during typical street driving because the driver needn't taper off on the gas before the shift, pause to allow rev-match during the shift before reengaging the clutch, and smoothly add gas to get back to the desired acceleration. The auto driver just stays on it while the auto power shifts, using simultaneous clutch release (current gear) and engagement (next gear), and relying on the torque converter to smooth the action.

The auto will also shift down faster than even a good driver with a stick can do it.

If you spend 98% of your driving time just driving around (even sporty driving), and 2% of your driving time racing, then the auto will be quicker 98% of the time. They are simply faster and more responsive than sticks in anything but race conditions...
All this would only be true if the M was not offered with the new DCT box. The Mercedes auto may well be an excellent transmission. But I'll bet the new M-DCT tranny will pummel it.

Quote:
Edit: PS - If BMW comes out with a DSG-like box (a la Volkswagen/Audi), that might make enough of a difference - but it'll still be down on torque.
Down on torque indeed. Just like the E46 was vs. C55, and the E36 was vs. the C43.
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      08-02-2007, 11:54 AM   #30
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If BMW comes out with a DSG-like box (a la Volkswagen/Audi), that might make enough of a difference - but it'll still be down on torque.
Good post, couple of comments. M-DCT for the M3 is virtually assured and will significantly affect acceleration numbers, shift times and mpg as well as provide less parasitic drivetrain losses. Also it is much more insightful to look at a cars weight/(hp to the wheels) or weight/(tq to the wheels) rather than to just say one vehicle has a raw hp or tq advantage. In fact the latter is mostly meaningless.
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      08-02-2007, 01:37 PM   #31
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Won't know until I drive both (E90 M3 w/M-DCT and C63)...

I can't believe I'm actually seriously considering a MB, but the C63 definitely seems to be cut from a different mold. That being said, I'm probably still leaning towards the E90 M3... I've just got this gut feeling that no matter how good the C63 will be, the E90 M3 will just be more involving / fun to drive. Possibly not as fast in real world driving, but more fun getting there
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      08-02-2007, 01:57 PM   #32
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M3... imo these cars (M vs AMG) are each for different type drivers.
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      08-02-2007, 02:32 PM   #33
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Quote:
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Good post, couple of comments. M-DCT for the M3 is virtually assured and will significantly affect acceleration numbers, shift times and mpg as well as provide less parasitic drivetrain losses. Also it is much more insightful to look at a cars weight/(hp to the wheels) or weight/(tq to the wheels) rather than to just say one vehicle has a raw hp or tq advantage. In fact the latter is mostly meaningless.
Thanks.

If the M-DCT is like the VAG DSG box, then yes indeed, it will definitely pick up the just-driving-around energy quotient.

The M-B will likely have better power-to-weight and torque-to-weight numbers.

To say that a torque advantage is mostly meaningless is untrue. It has a (relatively) small effect in an all-out race, but a large effect in street driving, where you spend most of your time on the left-hand side of the tachometer.

Bruce
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      08-02-2007, 02:34 PM   #34
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The VW DSG has awful pick-up in first gear though. I've read many reports on my forum of people who say it feels hesitant and can't for some reason smoothly get power down.
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      08-02-2007, 02:38 PM   #35
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All this would only be true if the M was not offered with the new DCT box. The Mercedes auto may well be an excellent transmission. But I'll bet the new M-DCT tranny will pummel it.

When the M-DCT box comes out, it may very well be an overall better performer than the 7-speed in the C63 - but it ain't available. When it is, then we'll talk.

Down on torque indeed. Just like the E46 was vs. C55, and the E36 was vs. the C43.
The C55 and C43 would absolutely destroy the E46 and E36 M3s in everyday driving, for the same reason the C63 will destroy the new M3 in everyday driving.

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      08-02-2007, 02:54 PM   #36
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When the M-DCT box comes out, it may very well be an overall better performer than the 7-speed in the C63 - but it ain't available. When it is, then we'll talk.
It is important to keep in mind that the M-DCT will be available at the launch of the car in the US. To ignore M-DCT now is to ignore the car's impending release entirely.

Quote:
The C55 and C43 would absolutely destroy the E46 and E36 M3s in everyday driving, for the same reason the C63 will destroy the new M3 in everyday driving.
I'm not sure how to apply the word "destroy" to every-day driving. Are you talking about stop-light racing?

Either way, the fact that the AMG's have had more torque in the past hasn't stopped the M from being the leader in the segment and the more fun to drive car overall. It might be different this time around, but that has not yet been decided.
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      08-02-2007, 03:04 PM   #37
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Quote:
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The C55 and C43 would absolutely destroy the E46 and E36 M3s in everyday driving, for the same reason the C63 will destroy the new M3 in everyday driving.

Bruce
Possibly, but how much power do you really need for everyday driving? Neither of the cars we're talking about here are going to be slow... Yes you'll probably need to wind out the M3 more to hang with the C63 in normal driving, but I'm sure it'll be more than adequate. I still maintain that the M3 will probably be a more entertaining / fun car to drive than the C63, and that means more to me than simple straight line speed.
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      08-02-2007, 03:30 PM   #38
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      08-02-2007, 04:14 PM   #39
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M3 (September 07 build) because were I come from M cars hold their value for years where RS and AMG cars get discounted a few months after launch. I must add though I have my name down for the C63 as an insurance.
Not too concerned since I will be leasing my next car. However, to the extent that the residual value impacts the lease price, there could be an issue with the C63/RS4 vs the M3. I'll have to see when the time comes to compare lease prices.
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      08-02-2007, 04:25 PM   #40
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Disagree

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Thanks.

If the M-DCT is like the VAG DSG box, then yes indeed, it will definitely pick up the just-driving-around energy quotient.

The M-B will likely have better power-to-weight and torque-to-weight numbers.

To say that a torque advantage is mostly meaningless is untrue. It has a (relatively) small effect in an all-out race, but a large effect in street driving, where you spend most of your time on the left-hand side of the tachometer.

Bruce
I (we?) are expecting the BMW M-DCT to be quite similar to the VW DSG, all of the same priciples and benefits are there. A huge part of the performance will be in the actuators and software as well. Here, and for a car like the M3, I expect BMW to have a unit substantially better than the Borg Warner supplied VW unit. Speculation, but totally reasonable.

In rergards to power to weight did you see my post here? It is likely that the M3 will have a slight but better power to weight whereas the MB will clearly win in torque to weight.

F = ma and T = r x F. A torque advantage itself is indeed utterly meaningless when it comes to acceleration; increase the mass and all of the benefits of the torque are negated by the larger mass. This is the case at any rpm as well - the physics is rpm independent!
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      08-02-2007, 07:41 PM   #41
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Maybe the C63.

BMW continues the M3 tradition of building altogether better cars with each iteration that are less fun to drive than the previous version. They handle *very* well, but are less tossable with each new model because of increased size and weight. The new one will likely be a winner because the increased torque will make the performance more available in everyday driving, but it won't make you chuckle in everyday driving like the first one did. See that 90-degree intersection ahead of you with the green light? Make the left in your E30 (you'll be calling it a "left-hander"), and the car is small enough, and the chassis responsive enough so that you can get your jollies even in that restricted venue.

On the other hand, the new one will need a broader canvas to do its best, but will likely make you giggle when you get an open road ahead of you and goose it.

Of course it will have that back-road banditry excellence baked into its DNA, which is perhaps the best characteristic of BMWs in general. Find a less-than-perfect twisty back road, and BMWs will make you feel like a hero.

M-B, on the other hand, seems to be rediscovering the joys of really good handling. We'll see with the new car, but I have high hopes. I'm thinking these cars will be pretty close in stop-watch performance in a straight line or around a road course, but in everyday driving the C63 will blow the M3 so far into the weeds that you'll need a GPS (or at least a compass) to get back onto paved roads. Reason: That terrific torque curve, and more importantly, it's got that great automatic. Automatics are quicker during typical street driving because the driver needn't taper off on the gas before the shift, pause to allow rev-match during the shift before reengaging the clutch, and smoothly add gas to get back to the desired acceleration. The auto driver just stays on it while the auto power shifts, using simultaneous clutch release (current gear) and engagement (next gear), and relying on the torque converter to smooth the action.

The auto will also shift down faster than even a good driver with a stick can do it.

If you spend 98% of your driving time just driving around (even sporty driving), and 2% of your driving time racing, then the auto will be quicker 98% of the time. They are simply faster and more responsive than sticks in anything but race conditions.

Combined with that heroic torque curve, the C63 will be an absolute bullet in casual driving.

I'm a snick-snick stick guy myself, but that C63 will be awfully tempting.

Bruce

Edit: PS - If BMW comes out with a DSG-like box (a la Volkswagen/Audi), that might make enough of a difference - but it'll still be down on torque.


Hogwash!

You do realize the M3 will have an 8400rpm limit, don't you? If your just "sporting" around town in the stick, you'll be able to take THAT corner without the worry of shifting....!

Secondly, even if you do have to shift, might as well "blip" and toss the ass-end out a few degrees to give you that adrenaline rush.

Thats something you won't be doing in the MB!

THEN... if you chose the M-DCT option, your hole argeument is moot about shifting. Big "torqy" engines are great for the power and feeling they deliver, but being able to hang a higher average speed threw that intersection with rev's high.... WILL be more exciting than hitting the turn and have an automatic make you feel like your attacking the corner.






-Garrett
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      08-02-2007, 11:24 PM   #42
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My thoughts

M3 for sure. Normally I don't make rash decisions would normally wait for more test, reviews and most importantly a drive. But here the lack of SMG or DCT or something similar means I do not even have to wait for more detailed tests or comparisons. I do think the C63 is going to really be neck and neck in most cases with the M3 though. Mostly a "drivers race".
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      08-03-2007, 05:14 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Maybe the C63.

BMW continues the M3 tradition of building altogether better cars with each iteration that are less fun to drive than the previous version. They handle *very* well, but are less tossable with each new model because of increased size and weight. The new one will likely be a winner because the increased torque will make the performance more available in everyday driving, but it won't make you chuckle in everyday driving like the first one did. See that 90-degree intersection ahead of you with the green light? Make the left in your E30 (you'll be calling it a "left-hander"), and the car is small enough, and the chassis responsive enough so that you can get your jollies even in that restricted venue.

On the other hand, the new one will need a broader canvas to do its best, but will likely make you giggle when you get an open road ahead of you and goose it.

Of course it will have that back-road banditry excellence baked into its DNA, which is perhaps the best characteristic of BMWs in general. Find a less-than-perfect twisty back road, and BMWs will make you feel like a hero.

M-B, on the other hand, seems to be rediscovering the joys of really good handling. We'll see with the new car, but I have high hopes. I'm thinking these cars will be pretty close in stop-watch performance in a straight line or around a road course, but in everyday driving the C63 will blow the M3 so far into the weeds that you'll need a GPS (or at least a compass) to get back onto paved roads. Reason: That terrific torque curve, and more importantly, it's got that great automatic. Automatics are quicker during typical street driving because the driver needn't taper off on the gas before the shift, pause to allow rev-match during the shift before reengaging the clutch, and smoothly add gas to get back to the desired acceleration. The auto driver just stays on it while the auto power shifts, using simultaneous clutch release (current gear) and engagement (next gear), and relying on the torque converter to smooth the action.

The auto will also shift down faster than even a good driver with a stick can do it.

If you spend 98% of your driving time just driving around (even sporty driving), and 2% of your driving time racing, then the auto will be quicker 98% of the time. They are simply faster and more responsive than sticks in anything but race conditions.

Combined with that heroic torque curve, the C63 will be an absolute bullet in casual driving.

I'm a snick-snick stick guy myself, but that C63 will be awfully tempting.

Bruce

Edit: PS - If BMW comes out with a DSG-like box (a la Volkswagen/Audi), that might make enough of a difference - but it'll still be down on torque.
You make quite the point. I was thinking the same, the majority who have picked the m3 over the c63 say it handles better but how many of these people put the car to the limit? I am positive in real-world everyday street driving, the c63 will more than suffice. However, geometry-wise, i guess we have to accept that our sporty touring-cars now have to have big v8's and heavy curb weight. Quite the sports car eh?

However, I do believe that with all the additions that the m division has added to the newer m3 has made all the extra flab and cylinders put to much sporty-good use. So good, that the car performs about 10% better than the e46 m3. Note that the e46 m3 didnt really need anything more to be perfect, it was essentially perfect in my eyes.

Ok back on the topic. So we are going to consider buying these two cars based on their rarity and since both have been specially treated with amg and ///m dynamics, can you justify the price difference and uniqueness between the c350 and the c63, 335 and the m3? I mean, at this price range and preferences, you can easily get a discounted regular 911 that has similar or even better performance than the m3 and c63. So are you really looking for that sporty car at this point? Did i mention that I doubt half of you guys track to put the car to its potential?
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      08-03-2007, 05:45 AM   #44
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You make quite the point. I was thinking the same, the majority who have picked the m3 over the c63 say it handles better but how many of these people put the car to the limit? I am positive in real-world everyday street driving, the c63 will more than suffice. However, geometry-wise, i guess we have to accept that our sporty touring-cars now have to have big v8's and heavy curb weight. Quite the sports car eh?

However, I do believe that with all the additions that the m division has added to the newer m3 has made all the extra flab and cylinders put to much sporty-good use. So good, that the car performs about 10% better than the e46 m3. Note that the e46 m3 didnt really need anything more to be perfect, it was essentially perfect in my eyes.

Ok back on the topic. So we are going to consider buying these two cars based on their rarity and since both have been specially treated with amg and ///m dynamics, can you justify the price difference and uniqueness between the c350 and the c63, 335 and the m3? I mean, at this price range and preferences, you can easily get a discounted regular 911 that has similar or even better performance than the m3 and c63. So are you really looking for that sporty car at this point? Did i mention that I doubt half of you guys track to put the car to its potential?
Excuse me, but this is all BS.

Neither the C63 or M3 are track machines. Yes, one will likely be better on the track than the other, but anyone who buys one of these cars primarily for track use is deluding themselves, as is anyone who thinks that either car is soooo extreme it is somehow too compromised on the road.

And I think this BS about whether a buyer will handle the car "at the limit" or take it to its "potential" is laughable. You may think your skillz are so superior that only you "deserve" either of these cars, but here's a newsflash: anyone with the cash will be able to buy one, whether they share your lofty abilities or not. Here's another: people will get the car they want, not the car they truly need. Welcome to reality.
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