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      06-22-2013, 09:28 PM   #1
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Scary rod bearing thread s85

Not sure if any of you have seen this thread on m5board

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...tear-down.html

Pretty bad (really bad) rod bearing failure at 89k with no other cause related. I know people are selling upgraded rod bearings but I feel this is not getting to the point of the problem. What is causing the wear to be so bad on so many of these cars and also potentially the s65 given the blocks are identical essentially in design. Maybe the s65 has different bearings but the fact is something is wearing them down and that is more of an issue in what else is going on?
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      06-22-2013, 10:18 PM   #2
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Been following that for awhile..

Original thread here: http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...89k-miles.html

Pretty horrible time to break down (not that any time is good), but on the way to a car show...
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      06-23-2013, 03:10 AM   #3
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The answer to this has been given many times...... Bearing wear in the S65 (and its close cousin the S85) is a result of insufficient oil clearance out of the box from BMW. Have the clearances property set and you will see these bearings/engines lasting a whole lot longer with no issue!!!
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      06-23-2013, 05:35 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
The answer to this has been given many times...... Bearing wear in the S65 (and its close cousin the S85) is a result of insufficient oil clearance out of the box from BMW. Have the clearances property set and you will see these bearings/engines lasting a whole lot longer with no issue!!!
So, will running a thinner oil like 5w-30 help this issue ... if clearance is the main culprit here?
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      06-23-2013, 07:13 AM   #5
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Poor guy !
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      06-23-2013, 07:52 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiem3 View Post
So, will running a thinner oil like 5w-30 help this issue ... if clearance is the main culprit here?
I think this is nok. my vriend
Why ???
We all know that the S65 motor consume oil even with the Castrol TWS 10W60....and with a 5W30 is the (5W) viscosity higher !
And higher viscosity,want to say,with the S65,an even higher consumption of oil and ones you use oil with a higher viscosity,you can not go back !
Conclusion.... problems !!!
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      06-23-2013, 08:32 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiem3 View Post
So, will running a thinner oil like 5w-30 help this issue ... if clearance is the main culprit here?
Is it a fix, no. Will it help, yes it will. .001 rod clearance is entirely too tight on a street engine that was made to run 10-60. The thinner the oil the tighter you can run the clearance.
As far as the oil consumption the "weight" of the oil has nothing to do with it. Different brands and additive packages will contribute to this but if a company as Castrol made a 5-40 with the same package as 10-60 consumption would be no different and in many cases it can actually improve. Certain street car oils are known to have lots of consumption. Quaker State full synthetic is one of them. That is because of the additive package though not because of the weight.
People will argue all day long about oil and what is best because the manufacture says so but the bottom line is a thinner oil with the proper additive package will help the clearance problem. The tws oil is pretty much a diesel oil additive package. I have tested it along with many other oils in our shop with a 250k machine and the conclusion is that the tws has virtually the same additive package as a Delvac or Rotella diesel oil.
So what do I run, I am sure a lot of people will disagree but I run Rotella 5-40 because of the known bearing problem. If this problem did not exist I would run the 10-60 just as it calls for.
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      06-23-2013, 09:53 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawasaki00
Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiem3 View Post
So, will running a thinner oil like 5w-30 help this issue ... if clearance is the main culprit here?
Is it a fix, no. Will it help, yes it will. .001 rod clearance is entirely too tight on a street engine that was made to run 10-60. The thinner the oil the tighter you can run the clearance.
As far as the oil consumption the "weight" of the oil has nothing to do with it. Different brands and additive packages will contribute to this but if a company as Castrol made a 5-40 with the same package as 10-60 consumption would be no different and in many cases it can actually improve. Certain street car oils are known to have lots of consumption. Quaker State full synthetic is one of them. That is because of the additive package though not because of the weight.
People will argue all day long about oil and what is best because the manufacture says so but the bottom line is a thinner oil with the proper additive package will help the clearance problem. The tws oil is pretty much a diesel oil additive package. I have tested it along with many other oils in our shop with a 250k machine and the conclusion is that the tws has virtually the same additive package as a Delvac or Rotella diesel oil.
So what do I run, I am sure a lot of people will disagree but I run Rotella 5-40 because of the known bearing problem. If this problem did not exist I would run the 10-60 just as it calls for.
U run the t6 in your m3?? Cool!
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      06-23-2013, 11:06 AM   #9
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U run the t6 in your m3?? Cool!
Yes I run the T6, Of course to some people my engine will grenade at any moment LOL.
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      06-23-2013, 11:06 AM   #10
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I've been following all these bearing issue threads. For some of us with older engines, the bearing wear probably already happened and switching to a thinner oil at this point might not help much? I wish there is different size bearings that we can order instead of having to have the crank machined. This really sucks. Anyone willing/want to do a DIY on the steps to do a spot check on the bearings in our beloved S65? I have long commute every weekend and as the above poster said, having the anxiety of my engine 'grenading' any moment isn't fun.

I know VAC has a coated bearing package for sale but BMRLVR has pointed out that probably not gonna help. Since VAC is already having the bearings coated, wouldn't it be possible for them to machine down the bearings first before coating it? Or this is not possible at all and I am way out in wishful thinking land?
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      06-23-2013, 11:43 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e92zero View Post
I've been following all these bearing issue threads. For some of us with older engines, the bearing wear probably already happened and switching to a thinner oil at this point might not help much? I wish there is different size bearings that we can order instead of having to have the crank machined. This really sucks. Anyone willing/want to do a DIY on the steps to do a spot check on the bearings in our beloved S65? I have long commute every weekend and as the above poster said, having the anxiety of my engine 'grenading' any moment isn't fun.

I know VAC has a coated bearing package for sale but BMRLVR has pointed out that probably not gonna help. Since VAC is already having the bearings coated, wouldn't it be possible for them to machine down the bearings first before coating it? Or this is not possible at all and I am way out in wishful thinking land?
The easy fix would be to get a standard shell and a -.0005 or -.001 shell and that would increase clearance without having to machine anything. The BIG question is do they even make undersize bearings for our engine.
The back of the bearing can also be sanded to increase size but have to be sure you have enough crush.
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      06-23-2013, 11:57 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by e92zero View Post
I know VAC has a coated bearing package for sale but BMRLVR has pointed out that probably not gonna help.
The extra coating will add extra thickness and reduce clearance even farther.

Quote:
Since VAC is already having the bearings coated, wouldn't it be possible for them to machine down the bearings first before coating it? Or this is not possible at all and I am way out in wishful thinking land?
It's probably wishful thinking. Bearings aren't perfectly round to begin with, and the bearing surface is only a few thou' thick. Machining the bearings isn't really possible.

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Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
The easy fix would be to get a standard shell and a -.0005 or -.001 shell and that would increase clearance without having to machine anything. The BIG question is do they even make undersize bearings for our engine.
The back of the bearing can also be sanded to increase size but have to be sure you have enough crush.
Nope, only one size bearings; no undersize bearings available. I checked both M3 and M5 motors; same thing.
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      06-23-2013, 12:07 PM   #13
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Nope, only one size bearings; no undersize bearings available. I checked both M3 and M5 motors; same thing.
What is weird is they have two part numbers listed for the bearings.

Bearing shell, blue 53,00MM(0) 8 11247841703
Bearing shell, red 53,00MM(0) 8 11247841702

Typical Blue rod bearings are a +.001 and red rod bearings are .0000 size. Yellow bearings are -.0005 and green bearings are -.001 Although yellow and green are not listed I just threw that in there for comparison.
It is confusing because they are both listed as the same size.
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      06-23-2013, 12:18 PM   #14
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I looked up the part numbers and sure enough the bearings are red and blue. I am pretty sure the two bearings are a +.001 and a standard. I look at rod bearings everyday with these paint marks. Also the way the tang looks and the way the paint is on the edge of the bearing I would bet it is a pankl rod bearing. I might order one of each and measure them. If I am correct one could put reds on top and bottom and gain .0005 clearance. Although maybe not ideal .0015 is still better than .001

Furthermore I bet VAC has already figured this out and the coated bearings they are selling are two red shells. The coating is probably .0002 on each side so if they use two reds that is how the clearance is not being tightened up but still able to be coated. If I am wrong on that they have every right to correct me.
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      06-23-2013, 12:49 PM   #15
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^Thanks kawasaki00 and regular guy. I really wish VAC can confirm if we will gain any clearance over standard or we would be even in a worse position to start with. I couldn't find any info and no pm confirmation either. I would have bought their coated bearings already if they would just confirm the info.
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      06-23-2013, 02:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e92zero View Post
^Thanks kawasaki00 and regular guy. I really wish VAC can confirm if we will gain any clearance over standard or we would be even in a worse position to start with. I couldn't find any info and no pm confirmation either. I would have bought their coated bearings already if they would just confirm the info.
+1 Interested in knowing this as well...

I don't want the clearances to be too tight given the coating..

Does anyone know if the GTS bearings are the same as the standard bearings?
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      06-23-2013, 02:27 PM   #17
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So to me it seems like a myth that the e92 m3's have any lower of a chance of bearing failure than the m5's do and really it was only because more high mileage m5's started appearing before any high mileage m3's?

My question than is what situation is causing the oil starvation issue-is it track type driving where g-forces are too high? Or is it high RPM driving where the oil is starved at higher rpm.

Or effectively what can we do if we want to lessen the chance of this happening to our engine? Keep RPM"s lower or will that not matter? Don't track?

Seems like so many of these cars have held up so well on the track and with hard driving. I guess I will plan to get rid of this car after warranty. Simple as that. I was going to keep it long term but such a shame.

And last, how about running bmw synthetic 5 w30 which is a bit thicker than the average 5w 30. What deleterious effects does that have?
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      06-23-2013, 02:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e92zero View Post
I've been following all these bearing issue threads. For some of us with older engines, the bearing wear probably already happened and switching to a thinner oil at this point might not help much? I wish there is different size bearings that we can order instead of having to have the crank machined. This really sucks. Anyone willing/want to do a DIY on the steps to do a spot check on the bearings in our beloved S65? I have long commute every weekend and as the above poster said, having the anxiety of my engine 'grenading' any moment isn't fun.

I know VAC has a coated bearing package for sale but BMRLVR has pointed out that probably not gonna help. Since VAC is already having the bearings coated, wouldn't it be possible for them to machine down the bearings first before coating it? Or this is not possible at all and I am way out in wishful thinking land?
I've said this in pretty much every thread about rod bearings and I'll say it again. When you change your oil, send a sample to Blackstone to get it analyzed. It's like $25 each time (every 7500 miles).

1) If oil analysis comes back and shows no bearing issue, why bust the engine open to change the bearings unless you are going FI?
2) As mentioned in every thread, the tolerances are very tight in these engines. However, there's also a good chance your engine is perfectly fine too.

Now if your oil analysis came back with high lead count, then that's another subject
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      06-23-2013, 03:10 PM   #19
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If folks set clearances to say, .002, oil pressure drops to 20-25 psi below 2k rpm from 40 psi. How will this affect stop and go, sitting at traffic light style driving? Without playing with oil weight. All components of this engine are designed to see 40-80 psi(vanos included). Maximum pressure is 60 with .002 clearance. Would a revised oil pump be a full package solution along with more clearance? I have measured 2 motors both closer to .0015, but I do not disagree that there are ones closer to .001. If this can be proven without doubt should BMW not take accountability?
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      06-23-2013, 03:15 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
Yes I run the T6, Of course to some people my engine will grenade at any moment LOL.
awesome man, that's a great oil! i have a huge stash in my garage just for my CBR and I was thinking about the other day using it for my BMW's when they go out of warranty and/or in between changes

i wonder if my old 328 exploded yet..? lol
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      06-23-2013, 03:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
I've said this in pretty much every thread about rod bearings and I'll say it again. When you change your oil, send a sample to Blackstone to get it analyzed. It's like $25 each time (every 7500 miles).

1) If oil analysis comes back and shows no bearing issue, why bust the engine open to change the bearings unless you are going FI?
2) As mentioned in every thread, the tolerances are very tight in these engines. However, there's also a good chance your engine is perfectly fine too.

Now if your oil analysis came back with high lead count, then that's another subject
My lead count has consistently been 44.

I think this might have been when some leaded fuel went in, but I can't be sure.

I'd like to see it say 0, but I guess consistency is good as well.
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      06-23-2013, 03:23 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by WingZeroX5 View Post
U run the t6 in your m3?? Cool!
Yes I run the T6, Of course to some people my engine will grenade at any moment LOL.
How many miles do you have running 5/40? Have you had an analysis done using it?
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