335i vs GTO 6.0L

[speedfreak81]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335coupe

Are you claiming that the GTO has only a 12.5% drivetrain loss (400*.875=350)? That is very far from the truth. 330 rwhp is more realistic.

How would you know? Have you seen a bunch of stock LS2 cars on the dyno? Go spend some time over at LS2gto.com.......the LS2 was underrated by GM.....just like the 335i is underrated by BMW....335s routinely dyno what 280hp to the wheels stock, that would mean that there is only a 6.5% drivetrain loss in your car?

There are MANY LS2 cars that dyno 340-350 on a regular basis, I've seen some in the mid-high 350s.

[speedfreak81]

Originally Posted by GTO2turbos

Yeah, it gets a little confusing with all the different update/design revisions they keep coming out with. I thought the "R" was the so called road race version with smaller turbos, but allowed the head lights to function.

As far as which is better engineered, that would be obvious to anyone who has seen both. And I'm not a fan of chinese knock off turbos. But to each his own.

There may be plenty of GenTT cars in Australia running 140+mph traps, but no one has come even close to that in the U.S with those kits. Don't get caught in the sales hype and don't believe everything you hear.

Sorry to the OP for the thread hijack.

Most of the OEM turbo castings are made in China these days, so I wouldn't consider them to be "knock offs." You still haven't told me WHAT exactly is better about APS?? There are a few people over at ls2gto.com running the TTR set ups that are over 130mph.

[chim15]

Originally Posted by speedfreak81

How would you know? Have you seen a bunch of stock LS2 cars on the dyno? Go spend some time over at LS2gto.com.......the LS2 was underrated by GM.....just like the 335i is underrated by BMW....335s routinely dyno what 280hp to the wheels stock, that would mean that there is only a 6.5% drivetrain loss in your car?

There are MANY LS2 cars that dyno 340-350 on a regular basis, I've seen some in the mid-high 350s.

I know this is kinda off-topic so I apologize for the semi hijack here, but do car companies purposely underrate engines for insurance reasons (i.e. if you rate the 335i at 300HP, then you get a slight break on premiums compared to a car with like 325HP?) I always wondered about that.

[speedfreak81]

Originally Posted by chim15

I know this is kinda off-topic so I apologize for the semi hijack here, but do car companies purposely underrate engines for insurance reasons (i.e. if you rate the 335i at 300HP, then you get a slight break on premiums compared to a car with like 325HP?) I always wondered about that.

That has been the general consensus....but as far as how much of a difference it would REALLY make, no one can really say for sure.

[Rangeball]

Originally Posted by speedfreak81

How would you know? Have you seen a bunch of stock LS2 cars on the dyno? Go spend some time over at LS2gto.com.......the LS2 was underrated by GM.....just like the 335i is underrated by BMW....335s routinely dyno what 280hp to the wheels stock, that would mean that there is only a 6.5% drivetrain loss in your car?

There are MANY LS2 cars that dyno 340-350 on a regular basis, I've seen some in the mid-high 350s.

344 rwhp / 344 ft. lb torque on mine with only a KN intake.

Curious to hear that BMW helped design the suspension on the GTO. I will have to take a look into that. That would explain a lot. Definitely respect the BMW suspensions.

[turbojet3]

I drove from Ocala to G'ville just last night through the rain storm.
I only saw one GTO there and he was running high 13's.

[speedfreak81]

Originally Posted by turbojet3

I drove from Ocala to G'ville just last night through the rain storm.
I only saw one GTO there and he was running high 13's.

HOT car man! Looks dead sexy in black. I assume you've got the Procede? Was the GTO an 04 or an 05+? GTOs are VERY tricky to launch...you don't see a lot of good ETs at the track without some tire or suspension mods. Best i got mine to do was 13.3@109 because I basically had to baby it out of the hole and all through first, matting it resulted in MASSIVE wheel hop. I didn't feel like breaking any driveline parts.

[turbojet3]

Not sure on which year the GTO was. I wasn't aware there were differences
until I read this thread.

[speedfreak81]

Originally Posted by turbojet3

Not sure on which year the GTO was. I wasn't aware there were differences
until I read this thread.
Your assumption is correct. I won't rest until I get a 12

04s came with the 5.7 LS1 350hp

05+ came with the 6.0 LS2 400hp and have the hood scoops and the split dual exhaust rears...obviously faster.

I was looking at your timeslip, your 60 is decent...but if you can cut a 1.90 or a 1.8XX you should hit 12s. 1 tenth on the 60' should net you 2 tenths by the end of the 1/4.

[GTO2turbos]

Originally Posted by speedfreak81

Most of the OEM turbo castings are made in China these days, so I wouldn't consider them to be "knock offs." You still haven't told me WHAT exactly is better about APS?? There are a few people over at ls2gto.com running the TTR set ups that are over 130mph.

They are knock offs, copies of popular name brand turbos. And who are "most OEMs" that are using chinese made turbos?

I have Garretts (USA), the new kit uses mitsubishi(JAPAN). Go research the install threads with the genTT. Notice they've had issues with the turbos coming too close to the headlights and also downpipe issues. That's an engineering problem right there.

And please tell me of anyone at ls2gto.com that trapping "over 130 mph" with any genTT kit.

[Rangeball]

Originally Posted by turbojet3

I drove from Ocala to G'ville just last night through the rain storm.
I only saw one GTO there and he was running high 13's.

Sweet looking car. I normally go up to Gainesville pretty often for Gainesville Raceway. I am currently waiting to pick up a set of Mickey's and then I will be up there a lot more. Hope to see you up there.

[GeorgiaTech335coupe]

Originally Posted by speedfreak81

How would you know? Have you seen a bunch of stock LS2 cars on the dyno? Go spend some time over at LS2gto.com.......the LS2 was underrated by GM.....just like the 335i is underrated by BMW....335s routinely dyno what 280hp to the wheels stock, that would mean that there is only a 6.5% drivetrain loss in your car?

There are MANY LS2 cars that dyno 340-350 on a regular basis, I've seen some in the mid-high 350s.

GTOs were produced to be fast cars so why would GM underrate it? BMW had a lot more reasons to underrate their car. Before I posted, I looked up dyno charts on drag times.com and the only stock GTO I found 05+ was around 330 rwhp.

[techlogik]

http://www.airpowersystems.com/ls1/us_gto.htm

It's this kind of crap that makes me mad about our M3. Gee, look, somebody can produce a TT kit for another car for $6k.

You can get 1 turbo for $16k with 1 or 2 vendors that is basically a custom build at this point.

Messed up.

[turbojet3]

PM'ed

[Rangeball]

Originally Posted by turbojet3

PM'ed

Edited

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by Rangeball

Edited

yeah but he quoted you.......still there.

[GTO2turbos]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335coupe

GTOs were produced to be fast cars so why would GM underrate it? BMW had a lot more reasons to underrate their car. Before I posted, I looked up dyno charts on drag times.com and the only stock GTO I found 05+ was around 330 rwhp.

Here's a link to a thread of a bone stock 05 6speed. 347rwhp/351rwtq on a dynojet. You'll have to scroll down to post #37 to see the graphs.

http://www.ls2gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14661

The factory LS2 pcm is setup to be extremely sensitive to IAT's as it's stock 10.9:1 compression is right on the edge for 91 octane. That's why you may see lower dyno figures occasionally as anyone who dyno's in hotter weather is subject to that issue and the pcm pulls timing pretty aggressively.

[esquire]

I've had two road encounters with GTO's, and in my experience they've been pretty formidable competition against my PROceded 6MT 335i coupe.

In my first run in, we agreed to run from a dig for one block. His car was auto, and with my bad start (didn't feed the clutch properly) he gained about 1.5 car lengths on me very early, and from there my car kept pace dead even.

In my second run in (with a different GTO), it was clear the guy's GTO was modded, because when he blipped his throttle (6MT) his exhaust gurgled like an old muscle car. I'm guessing at the least he'd played with his exhaust. We did a rolling start from about 20mph, and i immediately took 2-3 car lengths on him, at which point he ended up keeping pace and never letting the gap increase.

I'd like a few more run ins for a better approximation of how these cars really match up, but so far it seems to me that in the higher gears the cars are pretty evenly matched, it's mostly a lower gear race.


Question:
i understand that there has been an engine upgrade since 2004, but are there different engine variants available for the current 2007 models? from what i can tell, all post 2004 GTO's are running the same engine. somebody please correct me if i'm wrong. i'm curious to know what exactly i'm running against.

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by esquire

Question:
i understand that there has been an engine upgrade since 2004, but are there different engine variants available for the current 2007 models? from what i can tell, all post 2004 GTO's are running the same engine. somebody please correct me if i'm wrong. i'm curious to know what exactly i'm running against.

Post #97 answers your question. ^^^^

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by turbojet3

I drove from Ocala to G'ville just last night through the rain storm.
I only saw one GTO there and he was running high 13's.

Very nice run. So you also saw faster times from your car than any of the fairly stock GTOs. I mean, I personally watched and took pictures of about 4 different GTOs at LACR. None of them came close to the 13's. On average I was beating them by about a second in my stock 335i. So if anyone else beats them at the track, and gets to see what their actual times are compared to the 335i, please post them. We will then get a better idea of how fast they are. Its hard to tell in a street race with such closely matched cars. I mean, one person can jump on the throttle .30 seconds earlier, and that could be the outcome of the race. One thing I'm trying to figure out is why the 335i seems to be so inconsistant with mods. I mean, if I could consistantly get 50 more horsepower out of my car with software, it would be great. But I have seen non-stock 335i track times that are barely different than my stock one. I think it has to do with particular temps, etc, and how the computer pulls timing, etc. Although my runs were almost at 100F at high altitude.

[GTO2turbos]

Here's a list of the top 15 bone stock LS2 GTO drag times that have been posted at ls1gto.com. Notice that while the e.t. varies some, trap speed is pretty consistent at 108 mph (+/- 1 mph or so - the slower mph cars are more than likely automatics).

LS2 Stock Classes:
1) PhantomGoat06 12.88 @ 108.9
2) NYTIGER 12.920 @ 109.40 MPH
3) Boilermaker GTO 12.9299 @ 106.89 MPH
4) 05torridred60 12.971 @ 108 MPH - SAP mufflers
5) jumbojet 12.974 @ 108.08 MPH
6) BlackSheep 12.98 @ 108 MPH
7) GTOboss 13.007 @ 108.52mph
8) KYGTO 13.035 @ 108.96 MPH
9) Judgethis05 13.036 @ 108.72
10) hookmechanic 13.074 @ 106.76 MPH
11) SLoW SHO 13.082 @ 108.15
12) SloNlo 13.086 @ 108.75 MPH
13) TheCamel 13.112 @ 108.49 MPH
14) BadGTO 13.14 @ 104.99 MPH
15) Lord Vador 13.132 @ 108.85 MPH

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106613

Obviously, driver skill plays a big part as even I've seen some run in 14's with poor driving. These cars are difficult to drag race with the 6 spds.

[nmROD]

when you say bone stock are you meaning stock tires as well or just motor?