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      09-29-2012, 06:31 AM   #1
fongpi
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Asking dealer to reveal their purchase price for a used M3

Do you think the dealer would agree to show me their bill of sale when purchasing the vehicle? I would want them to agree to show me the documents after I say "yes, let's start the paperwork." Or do you think the dealer would be reluctant to show this information?
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      09-29-2012, 06:42 AM   #2
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for a pre-owned, they'll just lie to you, it's very opaque b/c they buy from different price points b/c each car is "unique" in a sense and has a story to it (trade in, lease return, auction). For new, they'll just give you their invoice price, and that's somewhat misleading b/c as I understand the business, dealers also get volume discounts and other incentives from manufacturers

You must be new to this business thing huh? Your price is based on supply and demand, not cost...
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      09-29-2012, 07:01 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fongpi View Post
Do you think the dealer would agree to show me their bill of sale when purchasing the vehicle? I would want them to agree to show me the documents after I say "yes, let's start the paperwork." Or do you think the dealer would be reluctant to show this information?
No.

Why should they?

Would you disclose your cost in a transaction?

What does the prior deal have to do with what YOU are willing to pay for a vehicle?
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      09-29-2012, 07:02 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
for a pre-owned, they'll just lie to you, it's very opaque b/c they buy from different price points b/c each car is "unique" in a sense and has a story to it (trade in, lease return, auction). For new, they'll just give you their invoice price, and that's somewhat misleading b/c as I understand the business, dealers also get volume discounts and other incentives from manufacturers

You must be new to this business thing huh? Your price is based on supply and demand, not cost...
/thread
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      09-29-2012, 07:06 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
for a pre-owned, they'll just lie to you, it's very opaque b/c they buy from different price points b/c each car is "unique" in a sense and has a story to it (trade in, lease return, auction). For new, they'll just give you their invoice price, and that's somewhat misleading b/c as I understand the business, dealers also get volume discounts and other incentives from manufacturers

You must be new to this business thing huh? Your price is based on supply and demand, not cost...
The formula to calculate COGS (Cost of Good Sold) is pretty simple and straightforward. The purpose of this exercise is to see the true profit margin, and to help me better identify a dealer which says that they are selling at a loss, when they really are not. I don't care about how the dealer came to their purchase price, as long as I find out what it cost them, in relation to what had cost me.
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      09-29-2012, 07:08 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMME30W View Post
No.

Why should they?

Would you disclose your cost in a transaction?

What does the prior deal have to do with what YOU are willing to pay for a vehicle?
What if I get them to agree to show me their paperwork after I sign papers? It would have to be a verbal agreement of course. And I probably won't be able to do this at a BMW dealership per say, but probably at a used car lot.

If I was selling a car and I knew that it was overpriced, and someone was willing to pay the amount I'm asking as long as I "show my cards" at the end of the deal, why not? Sure, I'd be willing to tell reveal this information...
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      09-29-2012, 07:15 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fongpi View Post
What if I get them to agree to show me their paperwork after I sign papers? It would have to be a verbal agreement of course. And I probably won't be able to do this at a BMW dealership per say, but probably at a used car lot.

If I was selling a car and I knew that it was overpriced, and someone was willing to pay the amount I'm asking as long as I "show my cards" at the end of the deal, why not? Sure, I'd be willing to tell reveal this information...
Good luck in the business world.
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      09-29-2012, 07:35 AM   #8
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      09-29-2012, 07:44 AM   #9
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What would be the point? It is actually none of your business and would be too late to change what you pay. The car is worth what you are willing to pay, it has nothing to do with what they paid for it.

Would you pay $70 grand for a used M3 just because they had paid $68 grand for it? I did not think so. Must be the water.
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      09-29-2012, 08:45 AM   #10
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If someone asked my COGS (Cost Of Goods Sold) in my business, I would ever so politely tell them to FO (Fuck Off).
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      09-29-2012, 09:02 AM   #11
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There is zero value in learning the dealer's cost, don't bother. Besides, even if you knew what they paid for it, that's not their true cost. They pay inventory tax, and other costs of doing business for acquiring, and keeping, that car on the lot.

The only thing that matters is if you think you are getting a fair deal.
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      09-29-2012, 09:26 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fongpi View Post
What if I get them to agree to show me their paperwork after I sign papers? It would have to be a verbal agreement of course. And I probably won't be able to do this at a BMW dealership per say, but probably at a used car lot.

If I was selling a car and I knew that it was overpriced, and someone was willing to pay the amount I'm asking as long as I "show my cards" at the end of the deal, why not? Sure, I'd be willing to tell reveal this information...

ill give you a bajillion dollars if you wash my car. i swear, i will.

really.
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      09-29-2012, 10:34 AM   #13
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Why would the dealer do that and why would you care?

Also why are you asking this question on here? Just go to the dealer and ask them (but be prepared for an immediate NO).
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      09-29-2012, 11:08 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fongpi
What if I get them to agree to show me their paperwork after I sign papers? It would have to be a verbal agreement of course. And I probably won't be able to do this at a BMW dealership per say, but probably at a used car lot.

If I was selling a car and I knew that it was overpriced, and someone was willing to pay the amount I'm asking as long as I "show my cards" at the end of the deal, why not? Sure, I'd be willing to tell reveal this information...
They wouldn't show you even afterward because even though you can't change your offer, it might affect what you say about them to friends, in online reviews, etc, like "They totally gouged me" or "They had X% profit margin even after I negotiated $X below their asking price, so if you go there push even harder."

Besides, their true cost isn't easy to determine anyway. They have to factor all of their operating costs into the cars they sell, so it's not as simple as what they paid for the car. People have entire businesses around helping other companies just DETERMINING what their true cost of goods sold is, never mind how to reduce said costs.

It's not for you to determine how much they're "allowed" to profit from your purchase, or even know, nor should they feel obligated to limit their profit margins. You get to decide what you're willing to pay, and they decide what they want, both of those determinations based on supply and demand as others have said.
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      09-29-2012, 11:16 AM   #15
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Lol...COGS.

Why don't you ask them for a Balance Sheet and a full P&L while your at it
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      09-29-2012, 11:46 AM   #16
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The general responses you're getting are spot on. I am in the car business, and a dealer is NOT going to reveal the cost of a pre-owened vehicle. It's worth what it's worth regardless of how much they paid for it. It is true though that sometimes we as dealers overpay for a trade, or have reconditioning costs that are unexpected that result in selling vehicles for a loss.
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      09-29-2012, 11:51 AM   #17
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This guy...
Sounds like a case of I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
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      09-29-2012, 11:54 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIS View Post
If someone asked my COGS (Cost Of Goods Sold) in my business, I would ever so politely tell them to FO (Fuck Off).


I guess the OP needs to find a non-profit dealer?
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      09-29-2012, 11:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fongpi
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
for a pre-owned, they'll just lie to you, it's very opaque b/c they buy from different price points b/c each car is "unique" in a sense and has a story to it (trade in, lease return, auction). For new, they'll just give you their invoice price, and that's somewhat misleading b/c as I understand the business, dealers also get volume discounts and other incentives from manufacturers

You must be new to this business thing huh? Your price is based on supply and demand, not cost...
The formula to calculate COGS (Cost of Good Sold) is pretty simple and straightforward. The purpose of this exercise is to see the true profit margin, and to help me better identify a dealer which says that they are selling at a loss, when they really are not. I don't care about how the dealer came to their purchase price, as long as I find out what it cost them, in relation to what had cost me.
It's very simple to determine the YDKWTFYATA formula for posters. This acronym stands for "you don't know what the FCK you are talking about." If you truly want advice, the answer is no, the dealership will not provide you with this.

Use your budget, find which cars fit in the budget. Then breakdown the important factors. Year? low mileage? Comp package? No accidents? Options? Supercharger testing mule? Enthusiast owned or a lease by a company who's owner beat the piss out out it? Warranty?

After all that, you will determine fair market value. Since your buying used, there are plenty of comps you will see in the for sale section of this forum to determine prices by year.
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      09-29-2012, 02:39 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
You sound like a nightmare to deal with...
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIS View Post
If someone asked my COGS (Cost Of Goods Sold) in my business, I would ever so politely tell them to FO (Fuck Off).
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
There is zero value in learning the dealer's cost, don't bother. Besides, even if you knew what they paid for it, that's not their true cost. They pay inventory tax, and other costs of doing business for acquiring, and keeping, that car on the lot.

The only thing that matters is if you think you are getting a fair deal.
These three posts deliver.
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      09-29-2012, 03:49 PM   #21
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These three posts deliver.
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      09-29-2012, 03:59 PM   #22
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+100 ... Who knows what the dealer did to make the car perfect for resale ... new tires ... total check up etc. etc. etc. ... so if you ask him such questions he will and should show you the door ....
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