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      03-31-2014, 02:32 AM   #1
downtowncb
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Any reports on used WPC treated bearings?

Seems like the majority of those replacing their rod bearings are getting the WPC treatment, but have any WPC bearings come back out to see how they actually look X number of miles down the road? Just curious if there is any quantitative support behind the process and whether it actually helps the S65. Searched but couldn't find anything, though I'm sure someone will provide a link 5 seconds after I post this.
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      03-31-2014, 01:39 PM   #2
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I don't think anyone has pulled the WPC bearings yet. I know some people on M5board were doing it with S85 but I haven't come across any "after" pictures.
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      03-31-2014, 02:40 PM   #3
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WPC treatment is used on tons of aftermarket/performance parts it reduces friction greatly and increases longevity, I have no reports or proof of them on S65 engines but, nor am I claiming that it will fix the rod bearing issue but it will definitley do what WPC treatment is meant to do.
I had all my parts treated when I was stroking out my turbo engine for my S14 in the past.

basically if you are replacing that part, getting the treatment can only help and is def worth the extra money.
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      03-31-2014, 11:37 PM   #4
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no one has pulled them out yet. hopefully we can see some data in the near future. i opted for them on my bearing change.
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      04-01-2014, 12:00 AM   #5
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I've seen two sets of pulled Calico coated (VAC) bearings. Both sets had very low miles. The owners were very happy with how they looked. I had a bit more of a jaundiced eye thinking they weren't that great -- especially for how few miles were put on them.

I have one of the full sets...just haven't had the time to put them into a set of rods and measure the clearances. I'll get to it one of these days and post measurements and photos.
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      04-01-2014, 12:06 AM   #6
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Based on what I've read there is no way I'd use coated bearings. WPC is a lot better here because it removes a tiny amount of material and allows for better oil retention.
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      04-01-2014, 01:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Based on what I've read there is no way I'd use coated bearings. WPC is a lot better here because it removes a tiny amount of material and allows for better oil retention.
I've never heard anyone claim that oil retention is improved by WPC. Perhaps I haven't dug deep enough... That being said though retention isn't really what you want. You want to flow a lot of oil through the bearing clearance for a lot of cooling and for a good fresh supply of oil. At the same time you want the pumping and bearing rotation dynamics to not allow cavitation nor collapse of the film permitting metal to metal contact.
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      04-01-2014, 01:48 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
WPC treatment is used on tons of aftermarket/performance parts it reduces friction greatly and increases longevity, I have no reports or proof of them on S65 engines but, nor am I claiming that it will fix the rod bearing issue but it will definitley do what WPC treatment is meant to do.
I had all my parts treated when I was stroking out my turbo engine for my S14 in the past.

basically if you are replacing that part, getting the treatment can only help and is def worth the extra money.
As I mentioned in another thread I find it really puzzling that shot peening (look it up, that is basically what WPC is) can be successfully used on something as dense/stiff/strong as a rod journal bearing (which by the way is probably a good candidate for benefiting from shot peening) and also on a soft, multilayer complex composite like a bearing shell.

Last but not least your post seems a bit riddled with contradictions.

Did you do an apples to apples comparison in your S14?

Do you have any evidence of the improvements in bearing shells?

How exactly is this "worth the money"? Specifics?
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      04-01-2014, 03:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
As I mentioned in another thread I find it really puzzling that shot peening (look it up, that is basically what WPC is) can be successfully used on something as dense/stiff/strong as a rod journal bearing (which by the way is probably a good candidate for benefiting from shot peening) and also on a soft, multilayer complex composite like a bearing shell.

Last but not least your post seems a bit riddled with contradictions.

Did you do an apples to apples comparison in your S14?

Do you have any evidence of the improvements in bearing shells?

How exactly is this "worth the money"? Specifics?
On my S14 no, I sold the motor before even using it, but I have seen many comparisons between worn parts with and without treatments of course... it seams you ahven't done your research on WPC... forget bmw..think racing world in general...


my post was just intended to let you know in case you didn't, that it no new thing....it's old news that WPC will reduce friction and extend certains parts life's.
I went to the main WPC office in Cali once and saw the parts my self... the difference in friction is amazing..


How is it worth the money? Probably because having the treatment will extend the life of your parts and reduce the chance of future problems.
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      04-01-2014, 06:00 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
On my S14 no, I sold the motor before even using it, but I have seen many comparisons between worn parts with and without treatments of course... it seams you ahven't done your research on WPC... forget bmw..think racing world in general...


my post was just intended to let you know in case you didn't, that it no new thing....it's old news that WPC will reduce friction and extend certains parts life's.
I went to the main WPC office in Cali once and saw the parts my self... the difference in friction is amazing..


How is it worth the money? Probably because having the treatment will extend the life of your parts and reduce the chance of future problems.
I don't think most folks concerned with the S65 and specifically with S65 bearings have much if any concern about lowering friction. And again, you must realize that metal to metal contact, the only time friction would come into play with connecting rod or main bearings, is something that should be deigned to never happen in the first place...

I looked at the WPC website and found some nice marketing quotes but zero data. Again, it is well documented and understood that shot peening (or micro-peening as this probably is) is great for hardening an simple metallic alloy surface that is already hard. Thus I'd expect some great benefits for things like gears. I'm skeptical, with good reason, I believe, about their benefits for a complex composite journal bearing...

Data please? That's really the only question to keep asking...
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      04-01-2014, 08:27 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I'm skeptical, with good reason, I believe, about their benefits for a complex composite journal bearing...

Data please? That's really the only question to keep asking...
If the benefits were unequivocally good, why wouldn't OEMs use WPC treated bearings? Or do they?

And if they don't use them, why don't they?
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      04-01-2014, 09:15 PM   #12
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Im no expert but IMO the WPC bearings are by far the better choice, as you probably know there not coated there Micro peened which makes a tough/slippery surface and actually improves clearance a little instead on making a tighter clearance like coated bearing do.
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      04-01-2014, 11:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
If the benefits were unequivocally good, why wouldn't OEMs use WPC treated bearings? Or do they?

And if they don't use them, why don't they?
Good points. However the counterpoint is that OEMs don't always use THE best components. In fact they rarely do.

An obvious guess though is that:

1. The benefits for bearings are slim to none to perhaps detrimental.
2. And this is the most important - cost. It could be automated for sure by a robotic system but whether that was done or not it would add considerable cost to the bearings.
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      04-02-2014, 12:19 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
If the benefits were unequivocally good, why wouldn't OEMs use WPC treated bearings? Or do they?

And if they don't use them, why don't they?
Pat you know our companies are so sensitive to the BOM costs that we literally look to save every fraction of a cent. Why would BMW be any different?
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      04-02-2014, 12:54 AM   #15
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Quote:
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Pat you know our companies are so sensitive to the BOM costs that we literally look to save every fraction of a cent. Why would BMW be any different?
Companies which stay around for the long haul usually make informed trade-offs with respect to costs and benefits.

Your company, for example, spends a shitload of money taping out existing designs on new, leading edge processes offered by various semiconductor fabs. Then they scrimp on other aspects of BOM costs. They know where to spend their money to optimize their business. They need one and not the other.

If the argument is that WPC treatments don't make financial sense for BMW, then you really have to ask what benefit they do provide anyone else? Just because Joe Racer might use them in some build means absolutely nothing.

The tendency on this board is usually to assume the worst of BMW. These assumptions may be justified but it doesn't follow that WPC treatments are useful. BTW, I am not saying anything specific about WPC treatments. I have no personal opinion on whether it is a useful product. But I don't find it convincing when random drive-by posters rave about how great something is, without even giving a reasonable argument as to why.

Last edited by catpat8000; 04-02-2014 at 01:00 AM.
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      04-02-2014, 02:22 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
If the benefits were unequivocally good, why wouldn't OEMs use WPC treated bearings? Or do they?

And if they don't use them, why don't they?
It is not 100% clear that the fault part is bearings. It could be even pistons or engine block which wears and gives micro movement which can cause rod bearing issue.

Maybe even Castrol oil which is not good enough in 10w60 range, but BMW have to use it because they have agreement.

Just another guess

Never hurts to improve some parts. Other oil other bearings...
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      04-02-2014, 08:52 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
If the benefits were unequivocally good, why wouldn't OEMs use WPC treated bearings? Or do they?

And if they don't use them, why don't they?
Same reason why M3's don't come with a Brembo BBK and KWV3 standard?
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      04-02-2014, 09:51 AM   #18
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If you want to be cynical, WPC bearings would increase the life and thus ruin their planned obsolescence .
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      04-02-2014, 10:10 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RimasRS View Post
It is not 100% clear that the fault part is bearings. It could be even pistons or engine block which wears and gives micro movement which can cause rod bearing issue.

Maybe even Castrol oil which is not good enough in 10w60 range, but BMW have to use it because they have agreement.

Just another guess

Never hurts to improve some parts. Other oil other bearings...
The glossy-eyed idealists with their blind faith in BMW want to pretend that you and I never said this and that such agreements play no role in BMW's decisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
If you want to be cynical, WPC bearings would increase the life and thus ruin their planned obsolescence .
Oh SNAP!
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      04-02-2014, 10:12 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Same reason why M3's don't come with a Brembo BBK and KWV3 standard?
Because they aren't needed and are completely unnecessary for the car's use case?

Pat
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      04-02-2014, 10:16 AM   #21
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BTW, I have very similar questions as swamp about micro shotpeening and effects on the bearings. I tend to think it's harmless, because a lot of much bigger HP guys use it in their street cars. That's how I heard about the WPC treatment in the first place 1.5 years ago (treating GTR bearings). But I still have the same curiosity and questions about it and Pat makes a good point about cost-effectiveness.
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      04-02-2014, 10:27 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
The glossy-eyed idealists with their blind faith in BMW want to pretend that you and I never said this and that such agreements play no role in BMW's decisions.
You are surely not naive enough to think that Castrol has any say in which Castrol oil BMW specifies for use for the S65?
IAC Castrol has a perfectly good 0W40 that could be used if that viscosity range gave a benefit.
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