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      07-27-2007, 12:38 PM   #1
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M Division superseded by it's competitors

It's time to end the denial and excuses. The brakes aren't track worthy. The steering isn't up to snuff. M engineers wasted so much time developing servotronics, M drive and other electronic garbage that only diminish the driving experience. The M Division has lost their focus. The new M3 is a very good car. What it appears not to be is a great car. This is a shame. If the M division would have spent time and money on brakes, steering and DI and forgot about the electronic garbage, the reviews and the car would of been exemplary. Maybe the only way left to get steering feel back in the M3 is to order it without M drive to avoid servotronics. Leave the electronic gadgets for the 335 proceed commuters. Make them think it actually improves their performance. This is suppose to be an M car worthy of the track. Hats off to Audi. The overpriced mid engine R8 is a killer car with performance numbers to back it up, even with the heavy drive train sapping all wheel drive. Give credit to the AMG boys. If the torque monster C63 handles a lick, like they say it does, watch out, especially at 63k. AMG has refocussed on handling and brakes, something the M division use to be respected for. And Porsche appears ready to introduce DI accross their entire engine line up including their high reving motors. PAG will also be introducing their version of DCT. Everyone should drive the under powered, and over priced Cayman S just once. It can set a new standard for driving nirvana. Why BMW doesn't develop a mid engine car like the M1 is beyond me. The M3 is still going to be a performance bargain but it is already struggling with it's its competition and it has yet to be released. What will become of the M3 vs it's competitors 3 or 4 years into it's life cycle? I believe it will be a depreciation nightmare, particulary, if the starting price is in the 60s. I would have gladly spent well into the 60s for a stripper M3 that had excellent brakes, steering feel and DI.

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      07-27-2007, 12:42 PM   #2
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M does what it does

if you want it, then buy one

if you don't like it buy something else

who cares
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      07-27-2007, 12:47 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
It's time to end the denial and excuses. The brakes aren't track worthy. The steering isn't up to snuff. M engineers wasted so much time developing servotronics, M drive and other electronic garbage that only diminish the driving experience that they have lost their focus. The new M3 is a very good car. What it appears not to be is a great car. This is a shame. If the M division would have spent time and money on brakes, steering and DI and forgot about the electronic garbage, the reviews and the car would of been exemplary. Maybe the only way left to get steering feel back in the M3 is to order it without M drive to avoid servotronics. Leave the electronic gadgets for the 335 proceed commuters. Make them think it actually improves their performance. This is suppose to be an M car worthy of the track. Hats off to Audi. The overpriced mid engine R8 is a killer car with performance numbers to back it up, even with the heavy drive train sapping all wheel drive. Give credit to the AMG boys. If the torque monster C63 handles a lick, like they say it does, watch out, especially at 63k. AMG has refocussed on handling and breaks, something the M division use to be respected for. And Porsche appears ready to introduce DI accross their entire engine line up including their high reving motors. PAG will also be introducing their version of DCT. Everyone should drive the under powered, and over priced Cayman S just once. It can set a new standard for driving nirvana. Why BMW doesn't develop a mid engine car like the M1 is beyond me. The M3 is still going to be a bargain but it is already struggling with it's its competition and it has yet to be released. What will become of the M3 vs it's competitors 3 or 4 years into it's life cycle? I believe it will be a depreciation nightmare, particulary, if the starting price is in the 60s. I would have gladly spent well into the 60s for a stripper M3 that had excellent breaks, steering feel and DI.
Do I feel an M-aversion in you recent thread starts?
What you're telling is more of a commentary and a quite polemic one.
Featuring DI read my post in the other thread...in the meantime I will check the Porsche DI technology...

Best regards, south
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      07-27-2007, 01:12 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Do I feel an M-aversion in you recent thread starts?
What you're telling is more of a commentary and a quite polemic one.
Featuring DI read my post in the other thread...in the meantime I will check the Porsche DI technology...

Best regards, south
I think I am frustrated and this is a way to get my frustration out. I guess I expected the M division to produce miracles like they have in the past in regards to annihilating their competition.
I just think M focuses way to much on electronic aids, which started with the E60 M5. I did read your good information on DI in the other thread. I believe the M boys have the R&D talent to introduce some form of DI into this engine, if they would have only made it a priority. And the brakes, what can you say about brakes with track pads that fade quickly. Would you have gladly paid well into the 60s for a stripper M3 with better brakes, steering feel and DI technology? I know you appreciate the archaic driving experience of 6MT cars as well. If you find out more information on Porsche DI technology let me know. Thanks.
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      07-27-2007, 01:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
I think I am frustrated and this is a way to get my frustration out. I guess I expected the M division to produce miracles like they have in the past in regards to annihilating their competition.
I just think M focuses way to much on electronic aids, which started with the E60 M5. I did read your good information on DI in the other thread. I believe the M boys have the R&D talent to introduce some form of DI into this engine, if they would have only made it a priority. And the brakes, what can you say about brakes with track pads that fade quickly. Would you have gladly paid well into the 60s for a stripper M3 with better brakes, steering feel and DI technology? I know you appreciate the archaic driving experience of 6MT cars as well. If you find out more information on Porsche DI technology let me know. Thanks.
Well, the M3 did not really have competition up until recently in its price/class segment. Imagine that the RS4, RS5, and the C63 were not even around; what do you think the magazines would have said about the E92 M3 then? They would have most likely declared it "a great" car. So, you might be right that, in light of the recent competition, the M division might need to do more, but that doesn't mean that the E92 M3 isn't a great car...
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      07-27-2007, 01:22 PM   #6
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M does what it does

if you want it, then buy one

if you don't like it buy something else

who cares
Hard to argue with that.
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      07-27-2007, 01:28 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Well, the M3 did not really have competition up until recently in its price/class segment. Imagine that the RS4, RS5, and the C63 were not even around; what do you think the magazines would say about the E92 M3 then? They would have most likely declared it "a great" car. So, you might be right that, in light of the recent competition, the M division might need to do more, but that doesn't mean that the E92 M3 isn't a great car...
Ya, I agree. The reviews in general have been a real let down. I was really suprised by the criticism and lack of enthusiasm for the car, something I would have never expected. I want the car, but now the choice is going to be a lot tougher than I thought, particularly if it starts in the 60s.
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      07-27-2007, 01:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
I think I am frustrated and this is a way to get my frustration out. I guess I expected the M division to produce miracles like they have in the past in regards to annihilating their competition.
I just think M focuses way to much on electronic aids, which started with the E60 M5. I did read your good information on DI in the other thread. I believe the M boys have the R&D talent to introduce some form of DI into this engine, if they would have only made it a priority. And the brakes, what can you say about brakes with track pads that fade quickly. Would you have gladly paid well into the 60s for a stripper M3 with better brakes, steering feel and DI technology? I know you appreciate the archaic driving experience of 6MT cars as well. If you find out more information on Porsche DI technology let me know. Thanks.

Ruff,

I understand your post, and its direct relationship with the somewhat under-performing report from the reporters/journalist thus far. I find myself wondering a times exactly where your thoughts wander to, but then I am often reminded of the E46 M3 days as well. It seems to me that the E46 went through a rash of criticism only to prove the skeptics and cynics wrong.
True that the dynamics of the playing field has changed significantly, and none of us as of the moment truly know how the E9x M3 will fair against the competition: C63 AMG, RS4, IS-F, etc.
My guess is only time will tell.
Have the engineers lost focus- I don't know.
Does BMW have what it takes to respond should they find the M3 wanting with respect to the competition- I would want believe the answer is yes. It almost the story of the regular 3 series, first it created a segment, then there were series of assaults and it just made the 3 series better.
The danger with this analogy is how much of a damage will that have on BMW if the competition proves to be ahead of it? Are they willing to take that chance- I don't know.
But I do understand your frustration, considering that I am looking at this car as a potential new car.

regards
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      07-27-2007, 01:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Ya, I agree. The reviews in general have been a real let down. I was really suprised by the criticism and lack of enthusiasm for the car, something I would have never expected. I want the car, but now the choice is going to be a lot tougher than I thought, particularly if it starts in the 60s.
I think many of us here on the M3post are ready for a new car, and want to make sure our $60k+ is well spent and does not leave us in a spot a couple of years down the road where we start seeing alternatives that make us question our decision. Moreover, we've been waiting with anticipation for a few years for this car, and here it is, and why do we have all these question marks around some dimensions of its performance, and car X seems to be doing better in respect Y and so on. So, I agree that makes the decision harder, but in a way, richer.

Now, things would have been so much easier if all of the potential alternatives,C63, IS-F, RS5, GT-R were all here at this time so that we can look at the data and drive them and arrive at a decision. But they are not, and they won't be for another year, but so won't the M3! So, that's why I want to wait until Spring/Summer to see where things are. By then, we should also get some valuable feedback from the European M3 owners...Regardless, in the end, it’s just a car, and whatever one ends up buying, one can sell if one doesn’t like it...
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      07-27-2007, 02:05 PM   #10
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Well, the M3 did not really have competition up until recently in its price/class segment. Imagine that the RS4, RS5, and the C63 were not even around; what do you think the magazines would have said about the E92 M3 then? They would have most likely declared it "a great" car. So, you might be right that, in light of the recent competition, the M division might need to do more, but that doesn't mean that the E92 M3 isn't a great car...
I totally agree with RUFF in his assessment and frustration. The way I see it, those dismissing these concerns about the new M3 are too rapped up in the aura of the M3 to see clearly. The fact is, the M3 is not as good as it was "relative to the competition". In fact, the competition in many respects is proving better. Sure the new gen M3 is better than the previous gen - I would hope so, especially for $10-15K more. You can rationalize all you want about how good the new M3 is, but at the end of the day the M3 doesn't stand alone - it is compared against comparable alternatives in the marketplace. BMW needed to do more to retain their undisputed dominance in this market segment - and they didn't. As a BMW, M3 enthusiast, I am disappointed and angry.
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      07-27-2007, 02:09 PM   #11
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No, the previous M3s never had the competition. Now they have it, the next M3 will be able to be head and shoulders above it, because this time around, the E92 has been in development during the RS4/RS5/C63 development process.
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      07-27-2007, 02:10 PM   #12
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I totally agree with RUFF in his assessment and frustration. The way I see it, those dismissing these concerns about the new M3 are too rapped up in the aura of the M3 to see clearly. The fact is, the M3 is not as good as it was "relative to the competition". In fact, the competition in many respects is proving better. Sure the new gen M3 is better than the previous gen - I would hope so, especially for $10-15K more. You can rationalize all you want about how good the new M3 is, but at the end of the day the M3 doesn't stand alone - it is compared against comparable alternatives in the marketplace. BMW needed to do more to retain their undisputed dominance in this market segment - and they didn't. As a BMW, M3 enthusiast, I am disappointed and angry.
I was trying to point out that the difference between a good and a great car can be a function of the competition as opposed to its intrinsic qualities. As a consumer, I am somewhat glad that the competition is finally here although that makes my decision process more complicated.
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      07-27-2007, 02:16 PM   #13
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I think I am frustrated and this is a way to get my frustration out. I guess I expected the M division to produce miracles like they have in the past in regards to annihilating their competition.
I just think M focuses way to much on electronic aids, which started with the E60 M5. I did read your good information on DI in the other thread. I believe the M boys have the R&D talent to introduce some form of DI into this engine, if they would have only made it a priority. And the brakes, what can you say about brakes with track pads that fade quickly. Would you have gladly paid well into the 60s for a stripper M3 with better brakes, steering feel and DI technology? I know you appreciate the archaic driving experience of 6MT cars as well. If you find out more information on Porsche DI technology let me know. Thanks.
I would like to tell that I feel something similar to your frustations,but in the meantime and only accept it positively, think how like you are...I am paying for my incoming M3 a grandtotal of 76.300 euro (not $) after a discount of 6,5%. In all Europe it will be the same if not worste than in Italy. So if this car will start at 60K in Usa think that it starts at 67.900 euro in Italy. I hope that this could in some way, make you feeling a little better. The fuel, unleaded that I paid today at the gas station was quoted at 1,39 euro for one (1!!!) liter. No comments. The RS4 starts in Italy at 74.500 euro.
A Porsche 997s (and in Verona ,my city there are hundreds around) starts at 93.000 euro...I could continue..
Be happy, the M3 needs only time to show his potentiality. Time. Time, and time....But for sure in Germany the famous magazine Sport Auto, the best one for sport cars, will make a full test around the Ring in less than two months.This will solve most of the enigma:-)

bye
 
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      07-27-2007, 02:19 PM   #14
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[...] The overpriced mid engine R8 is a killer car with performance numbers to back it up, even with the heavy drive train sapping all wheel drive.
The $50K cheaper E92 M3 will prove to be just as fast in a straight line and damn near as quick on a track. As a performance value, the new M3 puts anything in Audi's stable to shame.

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Give credit to the AMG boys. If the torque monster C63 handles a lick, like they say it does, watch out, especially at 63k. AMG has refocussed on handling and brakes, something the M division use to be respected for.
It'll be fast, but just like the RS4, a heavy pig. I posted in another thread that the weight reduced CLK63 black is already over 3,900lbs.

And just because the competition is closing the gap is no reason to lament over the supposed downfall of the M division. The expectations some people have for this car are just plain unbelievable. If you want a "purer" M3 experience, hold out for the CSL.
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      07-27-2007, 02:20 PM   #15
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I would like to tell that I feel something similar to your frustations,but in the meantime and only accept it positively, think how like you are...I am paying for my incoming M3 a grandtotal of 76.300 euro (not $) after a discount of 6,5%. In all Europe it will be the same if not worste than in Italy. So if this car will start at 60K in Usa think that it starts at 67.900 euro in Italy. I hope that this could in some way, make you feeling a little better. The fuel, unleaded that I paid today at the gas station was quoted at 1,39 euro for one (1!!!) liter. No comments. The RS4 starts in Italy at 74.500 euro.
A Porsche 997s (and in Verona ,my city there are hundreds around) starts at 93.000 euro...I could continue..
Be happy, the M3 needs only time to show his potentiality. Time. Time, and time....But for sure in Germany the famous magazine Sport Auto, the best one for sport cars, will make a full test around the Ring in less than two months.This will solve most of the enigma:-)

bye


I meant "luky",not like...
sorry...My English is poor...

 
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      07-27-2007, 02:29 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by ruff View Post
I think I am frustrated and this is a way to get my frustration out. I guess I expected the M division to produce miracles like they have in the past in regards to annihilating their competition.
I just think M focuses way to much on electronic aids, which started with the E60 M5. I did read your good information on DI in the other thread. I believe the M boys have the R&D talent to introduce some form of DI into this engine, if they would have only made it a priority. And the brakes, what can you say about brakes with track pads that fade quickly. Would you have gladly paid well into the 60s for a stripper M3 with better brakes, steering feel and DI technology? I know you appreciate the archaic driving experience of 6MT cars as well. If you find out more information on Porsche DI technology let me know. Thanks.
Here's an update on the Porsche DI system:
According to Porsche's website the DI works with an injection pressure of up to 120bar (1740psi), for the second generation spray form DI anyway a injection pressure of 200bar (2900psi) is needed. So technically it's a first generation DI!

We talked already about the brakes some time ago, they're a letdown. No excuses indeed...
Don't know what you mean with my liking for the 6MT? Do you think I don't like progress generally (DI for example) because I'm favouring a MT?

Best regards, south
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      07-27-2007, 02:31 PM   #17
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It's time to end the denial and excuses. The brakes aren't track worthy. The steering isn't up to snuff. M engineers wasted so much time developing servotronics, M drive and other electronic garbage that only diminish the driving experience. The M Division has lost their focus. The new M3 is a very good car. What it appears not to be is a great car. This is a shame. If the M division would have spent time and money on brakes, steering and DI and forgot about the electronic garbage, the reviews and the car would of been exemplary. Maybe the only way left to get steering feel back in the M3 is to order it without M drive to avoid servotronics. Leave the electronic gadgets for the 335 proceed commuters. Make them think it actually improves their performance. This is suppose to be an M car worthy of the track. Hats off to Audi. The overpriced mid engine R8 is a killer car with performance numbers to back it up, even with the heavy drive train sapping all wheel drive. Give credit to the AMG boys. If the torque monster C63 handles a lick, like they say it does, watch out, especially at 63k. AMG has refocussed on handling and brakes, something the M division use to be respected for. And Porsche appears ready to introduce DI accross their entire engine line up including their high reving motors. PAG will also be introducing their version of DCT. Everyone should drive the under powered, and over priced Cayman S just once. It can set a new standard for driving nirvana. Why BMW doesn't develop a mid engine car like the M1 is beyond me. The M3 is still going to be a performance bargain but it is already struggling with it's its competition and it has yet to be released. What will become of the M3 vs it's competitors 3 or 4 years into it's life cycle? I believe it will be a depreciation nightmare, particulary, if the starting price is in the 60s. I would have gladly spent well into the 60s for a stripper M3 that had excellent brakes, steering feel and DI.
As hardcore BMW fans you are going to get criticized for speaking the truth. I think you are right on many fronts..... BMW is falling behind with reagard to DI and developing cars that are artificial to drive... Don't know why?
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      07-27-2007, 02:41 PM   #18
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Just because the competition has become MUCH better over the years doesn't mean the M3 has become any worse.
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      07-27-2007, 03:13 PM   #19
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I don't have much to say except..I only agree with you 50%. The M3 may not be so stunning as the last gen e46 in terms of complete performance domination in the price bracket, but it's still a great car. I already know in my heart (and based on many comparisons) That the e9x series M3 is going to be better then the current RS4 in performance. I have my doubts about whether it'll be better than a C63, but then so what? does .1 or .2 second difference really make or break a car? The only thing I am REALLY worried about is the steering feel. I don't care if its the best handling car in the world, if it doesnt feel heavy and solid, then to me its not a sports car.

So as i've been sayng time and time again, just wait til u can test drive it
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      07-27-2007, 03:27 PM   #20
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Before I even started looking at these Forums I used to LOVE BMW's with out looking at performance, handling, gadgets, technical stuff, numbers, competition..ect..I used to buy them for the way the look, feel...how they made you feel part of it...for being the ultimate driving machine!

After a few months of reading diferent post, reviews, commments, frustrations,expectations..ect, I started not to like the car, in the back of my head I was... "this car is not good"..But then again I went back to the days were I used to drive and open the sunroof, hit the gas...feel the g's, and be like...Damn I love this car!!

I have decided to not take reviews and opinions so serious...just know that there are cars out there that are better than what I got or same...but I still drive a BMW and proud of it.

It could be that the E46 is better than the E92..Oh wait a minute...the E36 was better..Oh wait a minute..the E30!! Man! they are all good cars...F...the competition...

I truly respect everybodys opinions and reviews (not trying to start a war here)...But to the BMW fans it will always be a BMW.

Regards and enjoy your weekend...
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      07-27-2007, 03:45 PM   #21
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Yes and no

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
It's time to end the denial and excuses...
Your sentiments are similar to an earlier post I made, however with an optimistic twist on it, which I really think is easily there and easy to make.

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...isn't there something really satisfying when one car in a segment does really blow everything else out of the water? This is clearly the elusive dream/lust many of us have. I'm on the fence if BMW could have got the M3 much closer to this lofty goal or not. I for one absolutely do want a daily driver and don't want to sacrifice much on comfort. Perhaps the balance of performance+comfort to cost really is quite close to ideal. It will be very interesting to see the weight savings and power gains in the CSL and even more interesting where they got those things from. Then in bitter retrospect (sarcasm) we can opine that all those enhancements should have been on the base M3!
From the same post...
Quote:
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...the more I look at the competition and especially the bang for the buck we do have a real winner here. I think as far as track ability I am fairly sure the M3 will out perform 911, Vantage, RS4, C63 AMG, IS-F and probably the 911S and RS5 as well. Sure quite a bit of hunch/speculation there but that is MHO.
So I do very much agree that there is no room for brake fade nor steering problems whatsoever on this car. But the jury seems out on those - we have conflicting reports on both and no solid evidence as to whether or not race pads were used at Ascari. Agreed more folks have criticised the brakes and steering than have praised it but there are also a lot of FULL TESTS yet left to be conducted (have not even had 1 actually...). Try to keep some perspective and look at an accept the large amount of high praise placed on the brakes and steering as well!

If the base price comes in below $60k USD and we continue to get feats like out accelerating the R8 to 200 km/hr as well as very low 8:00 ring times (besting the Carerra S and R8) I still think the car will be a huge winner and class leader. Lastly buy a nice sexy big brake kit and be extremely happy.

I am not calling anything yet, contests, final verdit, unknown specs., etc. I am just keeping an open mind and longing for that test drive as well.
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      07-27-2007, 05:31 PM   #22
2002 Tii
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Drives: Cooper S JCW
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: FL

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Ruff, In regards to your Comment about "R8 being over priced", I completely disagree. Audi designed a completely new mid engine sports car, with the looks, performance and the feeling that only Italian exotics costing more than twice the price can match. And by the sales figures I'm not the only one who thinks this car is very fairly priced as the waiting list is over a year now.

I underestand your frustration about the M cars losing their edginess due to electronic assistance but BMW is not the only manufacturer guilty of this. Today's 997 has all sorts of electronic BS for suspension, and if you want an LSD (no not that kind!) you have to move to Europe and get the "sports option". My take is this; people like us do not constitute the target market even in the sports car catagory. You want proof, drive down the streets of Southern Florida or California where half of Ferrari and Porsche production is being sold and look who's buying these cars. BMW is no different, they have to answer to share holders not to a minority group. Now, you want to hear the best part; They will over charge people like us by offering "light versions" of the same car which they just sold by tens of thousands and made tons of money by removing all the electronic gadgetry adding a couple of weight saving elements. So now everybody is happing especially the clever car companies.
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