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      07-27-2007, 06:29 PM   #23
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Lastly, IMHO, I highly doubt that the e92 m3 will keep pace with the 2.5 yr old RS4 on a wet, bumpy, twisty road in (very!) rainy Britain. Can we assume the upcoming RS5 will only widen the gap..?
You're dead on. Right now, in the best of road conditions the e92 will barely pull on an RS4. But when the roads are bad the M3 doesn't have a prayer. The RS4 chassis is quite old and is a pig. Audi owners admit that. But you've gotta admit, it's holding it's own against BMW's best. The A5/S5/RS5 chassis is a completely new design. It's lighter, better balanced and has a lower CG. It will be interesting to see what it will do with the RS4 V8 and two small turbos. 450 HP conservative, but with a few tweeks, 500+ HP with 400 lb-ft of torque should be doable. And, unlike the M3, Quattro can put all of that power to the ground.
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      07-27-2007, 06:36 PM   #24
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As low as Audi make the CoG and how balanced they try and make their chassis, it is still inherently a FWD chassis, so therefore, inferior to BMW's.
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      07-27-2007, 06:42 PM   #25
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You're dead on. Right now, in the best of road conditions the e92 will barely pull on an RS4. But when the roads are bad the M3 doesn't have a prayer. The RS4 chassis is quite old and is a pig. Audi owners admit that. But you've gotta admit, it's holding it's own against BMW's best. The A5/S5/RS5 chassis is a completely new design. It's lighter, better balanced and has a lower CG. It will be interesting to see what it will do with the RS4 V8 and two small turbos. 450 HP conservative, but with a few tweeks, 500+ HP with 400 lb-ft of torque should be doable. And, unlike the M3, Quattro can put all of that power to the ground.

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      07-27-2007, 06:50 PM   #26
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As low as Audi make the CoG and how balanced they try and make their chassis, it is still inherently a FWD chassis, so therefore, inferior to BMW's.
That's just plain a silly, uninformed comment. If the M3 RWD chassis were so inherently superior, there would be no need for a comparison between it and the RS4. Yet, thus far the opinion of those who have driven both is split.

The A5/S5/RS5 is designed to be an AWD chassis, and has different dynamics than a RWD chassis, that is true. Superiority really depends on the road circumstances. I'll be happy to race you and your "superior" M3 against my RS4 on a wet road (or track) any day, and see which posts the better times. I also know that on a good dry track, you'll most likely take me. In absolute perfect conditions, you win. In any other conditions, I win.
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      07-27-2007, 07:01 PM   #27
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In any other conditions, I win.

Would love to see that


The trolls are comin in spades...can't wait to see the action comin up here soon.
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      07-27-2007, 07:03 PM   #28
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I think it's going to be one fat, bland car, that needs all that power over the new M3 to get anywhere near it on the 'Ring.

I'm sorry to say but you have been talking rubbish if not saying stupid things.

Go drive your beemer motorcycle and when you have the money for a real bimmer car like the M3 and when you get your facts strait maybe we will listen to you.

Cheers!
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      07-27-2007, 07:19 PM   #29
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Really?

And nevermind that this RS4 is 2.5 years old and the M3 hasn't been released yet.

I don't understand where you guys get your info from. The RS4 although a B7 platform is nothing more then a B6 with a new body as are all B7s. They have one big thing in common their chassis, the 8E chassis which is now 7 years old not the 2 1/2 figure that we see thrown around all the time!

So even if I love the E46 M3, one of my favourite cars, the new E92 M3 according to a lot of test drives so far can barely beat the RS4 in pure performance and indeed cannot even match it on bad or slippery roads.

This from a car with a very powerful motor and a brand new chassis versus a car with an equally powerful motor but with a seven years old chassis which rides on a DRC suspension which IMHO is a detriment to this car.

You bimmer folks better hope the RS5 is not any better than the currant RS4 for your sakes. It is highly doubtful that Audi would make any RS car perform less than their regular cars.
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      07-27-2007, 08:39 PM   #30
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I didn't say the new M3 was a lightweight, but the A5 is a relatively massive car and knowing Audi don't use the same weight standard as BMW, the S5 seems to be on a par with the M3.

Also, I drive the cars I've had access to as hard as possible until I find the chassis' limits out on Dartmoor, which is probably not all that different to the Nordschleife in terms of camber and corners.
Ha, gotta love it when someone chimes in who has never owned an E46 (probably never driven one) and who admittedly will not own an E92 for quite sometime. You probably have also never driven an Audi. I suspect that most of you that constantly try to knock the RS4 have are in the same boat: You've never driven an RS4 not to mention sat in one or even driven an Audi. Atleast I can say I've driven your precious E46 and I'll be happy to drive an E92 as well. It shouldn't be too hard, there will be a million of them. I just saw 3 E46s with in 10 minutes on the drive home. Talk about a dime a dozen.

Re: all the weight talk.... the E92 and the RS4 are basically with in 100 lbs of each other irregardless of where your get your weights from despite the fact that:

1) The RS4 has 4 doors and the M3 has 2 doors
2) The M3 has a carbon fiber roof
3) The RS4 has AWD

Despite ALL that your precious E92 still only weighs about 100 lbs less than the RS4 and would only hold a torch to the RS4 in PERFECT conditions. In anything other than perfect conditions, you can forget about it. LOL

Sorry but the RS5 is going to absolutely make you cry. It'll have 2 doors (weight reduction right there), & more HP. We don't even know the rest of the details as of yet.

If anything I must give it up to the BMW marketing division. They really know how to brainwash you guys. Apparently they've gotten you to the point where anyone that says anything remotely negative against the M3 is a troll, even if they've owned or currently own an E46.

Now that you're done reading this, feel free to resume to the cheerleading that takes place in virtually every thread on this forum.
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      07-27-2007, 08:42 PM   #31
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I don't think so. R8 is not on par with the M3. M3 is on par with the RS4. R8 is on par with the 911 and Vantage. Right now the M3 is neck and neck with a two year old RS4, so this new RS5 with improved chassis, handling and power should take the M3 easily. All Audi has to do is make it better than their RS4 and with the new chassis and engine layout of the RS5, that shouldn't be a problem. Plus, there's alot more than a 4.2 V8 going into this RS5.

Eitherway I'm buying the M3 so I dont really care who wins because I doubt I'll ever race an RS5 or see one on the streets for that matter.
the audi r8 only lapped the nurburgring in 8:04 which is only 1 second faster than the 997 carrera S. there was an article that mentioned how the e92 M3 laps the nurburgring faster than the 997 carrera S ( http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71595 ). so i would say that the R8 is pretty on par with the M3. look at the other performance figures, 1/4 mile, braking, etc. the R8 is very similar to the e92 M3, while the rs4 is not.

those who are saying the RS4 is the better performer, or even really close, to the e92 M3 have yet to submit any factual data to back it up - just reviews complaining about steering/brakes/etc. in reality the e92 M3's performance is right up there with the R8.

i'd love to be proven wrong, but nobody has been able to yet.

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      07-27-2007, 08:52 PM   #32
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Ha, gotta love it when someone chimes in who has never owned an E46 (probably never driven one) and who admittedly will not own an E92 for quite sometime. You probably have also never driven an Audi. I suspect that most of you that constantly try to knock the RS4 have are in the same boat: You've never driven an RS4 not to mention sat in one or even driven an Audi. Atleast I can say I've driven your precious E46 and I'll be happy to drive an E92 as well. It shouldn't be too hard, there will be a million of them. I just saw 3 E46s with in 10 minutes on the drive home. Talk about a dime a dozen.

Re: all the weight talk.... the E92 and the RS4 are basically with in 100 lbs of each other irregardless of where your get your weights from despite the fact that:

1) The RS4 has 4 doors and the M3 has 2 doors
2) The M3 has a carbon fiber roof
3) The RS4 has AWD

Despite ALL that your precious E92 still only weighs about 100 lbs less than the RS4 and would only hold a torch to the RS4 in PERFECT conditions. In anything other than perfect conditions, you can forget about it. LOL

Sorry but the RS5 is going to absolutely make you cry. It'll have 2 doors (weight reduction right there), & more HP. We don't even know the rest of the details as of yet.

If anything I must give it up to the BMW marketing division. They really know how to brainwash you guys. Apparently they've gotten you to the point where anyone that says anything remotely negative against the M3 is a troll, even if they've owned or currently own an E46.

Now that you're done reading this, feel free to resume to the cheerleading that takes place in virtually every thread on this forum.
from what i've read so far the RS4 actually weighs closer to 4000 lbs in the US which is where you happen to live. that's around 500-600lbs heavier than the e92 M3. there was even a review i found on the rs4 that made mention about its weight after they weighed it and it turned out to be close to 4000lbs...unfortunately audi trolls caused the thread i posted that link in to get locked/towed so i can't retrieve link.

your 2-door theory doesn't work either. bmw managed to produce a 2-dor and 4-door variant of the e36 M3 both of which weighed about the same. same situation with the 4-door and 2-door 335...about the same weight. just because a car is 2-door or 4-door does not mean one is significantly heavier than the other, then again maybe it's that way in the audi world.
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      07-27-2007, 09:06 PM   #33
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from what i've read so far the RS4 actually weighs closer to 4000 lbs in the US which is where you happen to live. that's around 500-600lbs heavier than the e92 M3. there was even a review i found on the rs4 that made mention about its weight after they weighed it and it turned out to be close to 4000lbs...unfortunately audi trolls caused the thread i posted that link in to get locked/towed so i can't retrieve link.

your 2-door theory doesn't work either. bmw managed to produce a 2-dor and 4-door variant of the e36 M3 both of which weighed about the same. same situation with the 4-door and 2-door 335...about the same weight. just because a car is 2-door or 4-door does not mean one is significantly heavier than the other, then again maybe it's that way in the audi world.
The US Spec RS4 does indeed weigh 3900 lbs, but don't think for a second the US spec of the E92 (you apparently live here too) won't weigh significantly more than the Euro version. From what I'm aware the US E46 weighed more than the euro E46, maybe one of you fan boys can pull up the numbers for me?

And based on the A4/S4/RS4 line vs A5/S5/RS5 line weights above, there is a difference of about 200 lbs in favor of the 2 door cars.
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      07-27-2007, 09:08 PM   #34
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The US Spec RS4 does indeed weigh 3900 lbs, but don't think for a second the US spec of the E92 (you apparently live here too) won't weigh significantly more than the Euro version. From what I'm aware the US E46 weighed more than the euro E46, maybe one of you fan boys can pull up the numbers for me?

And based on the A4/S4/RS4 line vs A5/S5/RS5 line weights above, there is a difference of about 200 lbs in favor of the 2 door cars.
e46 M3 weighs the same in europe as it does here

another example is that the euro 335 weighs about the same as the US spec 335.
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      07-27-2007, 09:29 PM   #35
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I don't understand where you guys get your info from. The RS4 although a B7 platform is nothing more then a B6 with a new body as are all B7s. They have one big thing in common their chassis, the 8E chassis which is now 7 years old not the 2 1/2 figure that we see thrown around all the time!

So even if I love the E46 M3, one of my favourite cars, the new E92 M3 according to a lot of test drives so far can barely beat the RS4 in pure performance and indeed cannot even match it on bad or slippery roads.

This from a car with a very powerful motor and a brand new chassis versus a car with an equally powerful motor but with a seven years old chassis which rides on a DRC suspension which IMHO is a detriment to this car.

You bimmer folks better hope the RS5 is not any better than the currant RS4 for your sakes. It is highly doubtful that Audi would make any RS car perform less than their regular cars.
I realize there are already a lot of posts in this thread, but I encourage you to re-read mine if you're going to quote it.

I am clearly saying that the yet-to-be released 2 door BMW can barely keep up with a 4 door Audi that is 2.5 years old. And then I go on to say that it would seem that the M3 has no hope of beating the RS5 when Audi's had 3 to 4 years to imrpove on the RS4 that the M3 is pretty equal to.

While I am still planning on purchasing the M3, I am less than enthused with the reviews and comparisons to this point.
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      07-27-2007, 10:06 PM   #36
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I realize there are already a lot of posts in this thread, but I encourage you to re-read mine if you're going to quote it.

I am clearly saying that the yet-to-be released 2 door BMW can barely keep up with a 4 door Audi that is 2.5 years old. And then I go on to say that it would seem that the M3 has no hope of beating the RS5 when Audi's had 3 to 4 years to imrpove on the RS4 that the M3 is pretty equal to.

While I am still planning on purchasing the M3, I am less than enthused with the reviews and comparisons to this point.
I agree with you and all I wanted to point out is that most people think the RS4 although only available for the last two years is really built on a platform/chassis that is 7 years old.

It is remarkable to me that the new M3 cannot out class it or out perform it by more then what we have seen so far as reported by several magazines with very good reputations.

The new chassis coming out this fall (A5/S5) should make the new Audis even better in the handling department. With apparently the motor moved back 4 inches, a lower centre of gravity, lower weight (?) and more rearward bias on the AWD system this could finally take away the handling edge BMWs always had on Audis.

Time will tell.
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      07-27-2007, 10:18 PM   #37
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There have been NO test comparisons of the NEW M3.
There have been first drive comparisons.
Only Car and Driver have used test equipment to retrieve performance data to date and the numbers are much better then BMW themselves quoted.
The numbers actually match those of the R8.
Is the RS5 going to match the performance numbers of the R8?
If so, will Audi match the price of the RS5 to the R8 ?
So all the talk of the RS4 being neck and neck with the New M3 is . . . . well penis envy !
You PRO Audi guys that show up on BMW forums to argue about how Audi is so much better the BMW should really rethink your strategy. If it were better you wouldn't have to go and tell the competition they would already know.
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      07-27-2007, 10:39 PM   #38
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I'll be happy to race you and your "superior" M3 against my RS4 on a wet road (or track) any day, and see which posts the better times. I also know that on a good dry track, you'll most likely take me. In absolute perfect conditions, you win. In any other conditions, I win.
You seem to be missing the point. Very few M3 or RS4 owners will actually race their cars. Some (including myself) will track them and have fun, but that's not racing. The point is to get satisfaction from the experience and have a good time. Whatever little comparative objective data we have on the M3 and the RS4 suggests that M3 has an edge--not a huge one, but it seems to be there. But even that's not the point. The point is that almost all of these initial impressions conclude that the M3 involves the driver more once pushed, and delivers more fun. I don't care if the RS5 ends up genereting slightly better numbers than the M3 if it can't involve the driver to the same extent. We can debate that variable all we want, but in the absence of real experiences behind the wheels of these two cars that are not even on the street yet, we don't have much to go on here...
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      07-27-2007, 10:42 PM   #39
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You seem to be missing the point. Very few M3 or RS4 owners will actually race their cars. Some (including myself) will track them and have fun, but that's not racing. The point is to get satisfaction from the experience and have a good time. Whatever little comparative objective data we have on the M3 and the RS4 suggests that M3 has an edge--not a huge one, but it seems to be there. But even that's not the point. The point is that almost all of these initial impressions conclude that the M3 involves the driver more once pushed, and delivers more fun. I don't care if the RS5 ends up genereting slightly better numbers than the M3 if it can't involve the driver to the same extent. We can debate that variable all we want, but in the absence of real experiences behind the wheels of these two cars that are not even on the street yet, we don't have much to go on here...
Well put.
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      07-27-2007, 10:47 PM   #40
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Despite ALL that your precious E92 still only weighs about 100 lbs less than the RS4 and would only hold a torch to the RS4 in PERFECT conditions. In anything other than perfect conditions, you can forget about it. LOL
Time for a new abacus, sparky. The U.S. spec RS4 weights 3952lbs. The U.S. spec M3 is under 3,600lbs. That's 400lbs more junk in the Audi's trunk.

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Sorry but the RS5 is going to absolutely make you cry. It'll have 2 doors (weight reduction right there), & more HP. We don't even know the rest of the details as of yet.
And, maybe, just maybe it'll be able to outpace a 335i on a racetrack - something the RS4 has difficulty with.
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      07-27-2007, 10:53 PM   #41
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There have been NO test comparisons of the NEW M3.
There have been first drive comparisons.
Only Car and Driver have used test equipment to retrieve performance data to date and the numbers are much better then BMW themselves quoted.
The numbers actually match those of the R8.
Is the RS5 going to match the performance numbers of the R8?
If so, will Audi match the price of the RS5 to the R8 ?
So all the talk of the RS4 being neck and neck with the New M3 is . . . . well penis envy !
You PRO Audi guys that show up on BMW forums to argue about how Audi is so much better the BMW should really rethink your strategy. If it were better you wouldn't have to go and tell the competition they would already know.
The RS5 will more than likely supersede the performance numbers of the R8. First, they are in two totally different market segments. Second, there is another version of the R8 on the horizon with a V10 engine.

I don't know where you guys get your information, but BMW's competitors are not still in the 1990's, where you seem to think they are. Performance developments do happen outside of Bavaria. Funny thing, Audi introduced DI engines to racing, introduced DI engines into production, and then introduced a high performance DI engine before BMW.

You seem to have a real problem with facts. And the fact of the matter is that the RS4 is currently a close match to the M3, and Audi will not sit still. You claim that the new M3 is better than the RS4. Well it damn well better be. By the time it reaches the US market, it will FOLLOW the RS4 by 2 to 2 1/2 years. The RS4 will have been in the US for 2 years before BMW catches up. In that amount of time you should expect the M3 to be light years better. That it is only marginally better is a disappointment.

Audi showed that it could produce a production engine with the same performance as any BMW, and use that same engine across the entire product line. The FSI V8 is a testament to this. In the RS5, Audi will most likely return to it's turbocharged roots, placing that same V8 engine in a more-worthy chassis, and add twin turbos to it. Nothing that BMW currently makes will stand a chance. BMW will again be in FOLLOW mode. Stock the RS5 engine will smoke the M3 S65 engine. But modified, the RS5 engine will dwarf the S65. If you don't think so, you don't know Audi.
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      07-27-2007, 11:00 PM   #42
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The RS5 will more than likely supersede the performance numbers of the R8. First, they are in two totally different market segments. Second, there is another version of the R8 on the horizon with a V10 engine.

I don't know where you guys get your information, but BMW's competitors are not still in the 1990's, where you seem to think they are. Performance developments do happen outside of Bavaria. Funny thing, Audi introduced DI engines to racing, introduced DI engines into production, and then introduced a high performance DI engine before BMW.

You seem to have a real problem with facts. And the fact of the matter is that the RS4 is currently a close match to the M3, and Audi will not sit still. You claim that the new M3 is better than the RS4. Well it damn well better be. By the time it reaches the US market, it will FOLLOW the RS4 by 2 to 2 1/2 years. The RS4 will have been in the US for 2 years before BMW catches up. In that amount of time you should expect the M3 to be light years better. That it is only marginally better is a disappointment.

Audi showed that it could produce a production engine with the same performance as any BMW, and use that same engine across the entire product line. The FSI V8 is a testament to this. In the RS5, Audi will most likely return to it's turbocharged roots, placing that same V8 engine in a more-worthy chassis, and add twin turbos to it. Nothing that BMW currently makes will stand a chance. BMW will again be in FOLLOW mode. Stock the RS5 engine will smoke the M3 S65 engine. But modified, the RS5 engine will dwarf the S65. If you don't think so, you don't know Audi.
Just to get back to Lucid's very lucid point--it doesn't really mean squat to most of us the way we use our cars. They're all good and enjoyable. Strutting around about your car being 2 seconds faster around Nurburgring or 0.2 faster in the quarter is kind of pointless, unless you're truly racing. Just MO.
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      07-27-2007, 11:08 PM   #43
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You seem to be missing the point. Very few M3 or RS4 owners will actually race their cars. Some (including myself) will track them and have fun, but that's not racing. The point is to get satisfaction from the experience and have a good time. Whatever little comparative objective data we have on the M3 and the RS4 suggests that M3 has an edge--not a huge one, but it seems to be there. But even that's not the point. The point is that almost all of these initial impressions conclude that the M3 involves the driver more once pushed, and delivers more fun. I don't care if the RS5 ends up genereting slightly better numbers than the M3 if it can't involve the driver to the same extent. We can debate that variable all we want, but in the absence of real experiences behind the wheels of these two cars that are not even on the street yet, we don't have much to go on here...
Lucid, we can agree here. Most all of us here, except Jet, will not race our cars. However, one of the things that many reviewers of the M3 have said is missing is just that, the driver involvement. In fact, some have felt that the RS4 was the more driver involving car. But that was not the point of this thread. Jet and I have been trying to correct the record and mis impressions about the A5/S5/RS5 chassis. It was said to be fat, heavy ... etc. It will not be and was specifically designed not to be. It has been said that somehow the R8 performance will dictate the upper limits of performance of the RS5. It will not, as they are totally different market segments.

Jet and I would both agree that the M3 has the potential for being an exceptional car. I'd love to have one myself, for dry days on exceptional roads. But, for the first time in M3 history, you have to agree that the M3 has a worthy competitor in the RS4 AND a potential worthy follow-on competitor in the RS5. Trust me, the RS4 involves the driver when pushed. It also signals it's intentions quite well. I know that from experience at Watkins Glen and Lime Rock. At the same time, it's also an exceptionally smooth and comfortable cruising machine, capable of long family trips. And ... my dog loves to ride in the back seat! What more could I want?

From my perspective, the good news is that there is real competition. This is good for every one of us, because BMW, Audi and Merc will respond to the competition with better products than they would have in it's absence. And ... I truly look forward to the day the BMW introduces the M3 CSL in the US, because I truly expect it will be an awesome automobile.
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      07-27-2007, 11:24 PM   #44
GregW / Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RI_RS4 View Post
Lucid, we can agree here. Most all of us here, except Jet, will not race our cars. However, one of the things that many reviewers of the M3 have said is missing is just that, the driver involvement. In fact, some have felt that the RS4 was the more driver involving car.
Evo seems to think it's more involving than the RS4. Will the RS5 be better--I'd hope so.

Quote:
But that was not the point of this thread. Jet and I have been trying to correct the record and mis impressions about the A5/S5/RS5 chassis. It was said to be fat, heavy ... etc. It will not be and was specifically designed not to be.
The Audis will always carry a bit of a weight penalty due to Quattro system. The value of this system is debatable. Certainly in other than dry conditions there is some benefit, though my E46 M3 handles rain just fine. Snow, well, that's another subject.

Quote:
Jet and I would both agree that the M3 has the potential for being an exceptional car. I'd love to have one myself, for dry days on exceptional roads. But, for the first time in M3 history, you have to agree that the M3 has a worthy competitor in the RS4 AND a potential worthy follow-on competitor in the RS5. Trust me, the RS4 involves the driver when pushed. It also signals it's intentions quite well. I know that from experience at Watkins Glen and Lime Rock. At the same time, it's also an exceptionally smooth and comfortable cruising machine, capable of long family trips. And ... my dog loves to ride in the back seat! What more could I want?

From my perspective, the good news is that there is real competition. This is good for every one of us, because BMW, Audi and Merc will respond to the competition with better products than they would have in it's absence. And ... I truly look forward to the day the BMW introduces the M3 CSL in the US, because I truly expect it will be an awesome automobile.
Agree, but not sure the CSL will happen in the US unless there is a true champion within BMW.
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