BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-19-2012, 12:27 AM   #1
cacofonix
Private First Class
cacofonix's Avatar
United_States
15
Rep
114
Posts

Drives: 2013 Melbourne Red M3 E92 ZCP
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

Can the M3 slip with DSC set to "ON"?

Hello Folks,

Just curious - coming home today from work, I was talking a few turns at a reasonably high speed and was quite thrilled and nervous at the same time. I'm always having DSC to "ON" - can the wheels slip in this situation? Or can I push the car without any worries of slippage and trust DSC to apply brakes and reduce power in all scenarios?

I know that the manual says "Even with DSC switched ON, you can't repeal the laws of physics" or something like that

Thanks!

-- cacofonix!

EDIT: Just want to clarify that this question does not mean "what if lose control of the car, or what if I drive like a crazy person" - just want to know that if I am taking a controlled turn at a high speed, will the tires slip when DSC is ON.

Last edited by cacofonix; 10-19-2012 at 01:02 AM.
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 12:51 AM   #2
mlhj83
Scythe-Meister
mlhj83's Avatar
United Kingdom
39
Rep
1,049
Posts

Drives: '11 E92 M3 DCT ZCP
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: London

iTrader: (0)

Sorry, from the way you describe things, it sounds like you are an inexperienced driver, regardless to the number of years you have had your licence. Please head to a track or undergo some driver training first before something nasty happens. Like any other safety system, DSC has its limits and can be overcome.
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 01:01 AM   #3
MStar
Banned
No_Country
3
Rep
290
Posts

Drives: e92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Here and there

iTrader: (0)

Here we go.

Everytime there is a DSC thread..the knee-jerk responses.."get driver training, go to the track, you're inexperienced".. blah blah.

OP the DSC intrudes and cuts power rather abruptly as soon as certain steering and suspension angles/yaw rates and other thresholds are exceeded...the MDM is much less intrusive and the Euro MDM is even less. All of these modes however will eventually intervene before you break loose completely. You still have to have to manage the car as the driver..these modes only alert and cut power. Hope this helps
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 01:04 AM   #4
mlhj83
Scythe-Meister
mlhj83's Avatar
United Kingdom
39
Rep
1,049
Posts

Drives: '11 E92 M3 DCT ZCP
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: London

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yolkster View Post
Here we go.

Everytime there is a DSC thread..the knee-jerk responses.."get driver training, go to the track, you're inexperienced".. blah blah.

OP the DSC intrudes and cuts power rather abruptly as soon as certain steering and suspension angles/yaw rates and other thresholds are exceeded...the MDM is much less intrusive and the Euro MDM is even less. All of these modes however will eventually intervene before you break loose completely. Hope this helps
I'm sorry, I'm going to be blunt as this concerns safety. What you have said is only partially correct, no amount of DSC or MDM will save you if you are travelling too fast, like entering a corner too fast or applying too much throttle whilst in a corner on a very slippery surface. Like the handbook says, the laws of physics cannot be broken. Hence, my advice on track and driver training, as you can then understand the benefits and limitations of DSC and MDM, and be a safer and more efficient driver as a result.

Last edited by mlhj83; 10-19-2012 at 01:10 AM.
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 01:09 AM   #5
MStar
Banned
No_Country
3
Rep
290
Posts

Drives: e92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Here and there

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
I'm sorry, I'm going to be blunt as this concerns safety. What you have said is only partially correct, no amount of DSC or MDM will save you if you are travelling too fast, like entering a corner too fast or applying too much throttle whilst in a corner on a very slippery surface. Like the handbook says, the laws of physics cannot be broken.
And as I said these modes only alert and the "driver" must ultimately manage the car..while I agree the track is a good place to the test the limits of the car in a safe environment..its not a pre-requiste to common sense and driving skills no matter where you drive.
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 01:13 AM   #6
JHFW89225
Major
JHFW89225's Avatar
107
Rep
1,238
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: HK/Vancouver

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2009 BMW M3  [0.00]
2008 335i  [0.00]
Even with DSC fully on, it is still possible to put the car in a spin. However, that is unlikely to happen because intervention will save you UNLESS, you are breaking the laws of physics aka. doing something ridiculously stupid.

Have fun with your car and stay out of trouble!
__________________
2013 Scion FR-S
2009 BMW E92 M3
2008 BMW E90 335i
2005 BMW X3 3.0i
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 01:15 AM   #7
ES_TRADER
Colonel
194
Rep
2,905
Posts

Drives: 328i, 335i, M3, 535i, X5, 36M
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: OC

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2014 Ford Raptor  [0.00]
2012 328i E92  [5.00]
2013 X5  [0.00]
2013 335i F30  [4.00]
1990 Toyota Previa  [0.00]
1997 E36 M3  [5.00]
2011 E92 M3  [0.00]
2011 535i  [0.00]
I was able to chirp the tires with dsc ON
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 01:17 AM   #8
mlhj83
Scythe-Meister
mlhj83's Avatar
United Kingdom
39
Rep
1,049
Posts

Drives: '11 E92 M3 DCT ZCP
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: London

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yolkster View Post
And as I said these modes only alert and the "driver" must ultimately manage the car..while I agree the track is a good place to the test the limits of the car in a safe environment..its not a pre-requiste to common sense and driving skills no matter where you drive.
Yes, the driver must manage the car and I do not disagree with that. Of course track driving isn't a pre-requisite, but from the way OP described taking high speed corners with a car that he has only recently taken delivery of, and is asking whether DSC is completely reliable for one's safety, this is why I suggested track and driver training.
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 01:18 AM   #9
MStar
Banned
No_Country
3
Rep
290
Posts

Drives: e92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Here and there

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
Yes, the driver must manage the car and I do not disagree with that. Of course track driving isn't a pre-requisite, but from the way OP described taking high speed corners with a car that he has only recently taken delivery of, and is asking whether DSC is completely reliable for ones safety, this is why I suggested track and driver training.
Fair enough.
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 01:40 AM   #10
luis_m3
Low Pro...
United_States
14
Rep
1,041
Posts

Drives: 2013 E92
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Denver

iTrader: (0)

Not even MDM can defy physics...
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 01:55 AM   #11
mlhj83
Scythe-Meister
mlhj83's Avatar
United Kingdom
39
Rep
1,049
Posts

Drives: '11 E92 M3 DCT ZCP
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: London

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by luis_m3 View Post
Not even MDM can defy physics...
Correct. Here is a video of mine on a wet track day for anyone who is interested in getting an idea of how much slip MDM allows in the wet. Fast forward to 4.50 onwards, which is when the track gets wet and rains heavily for the rest of the video.

Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 08:48 AM   #12
jphughan
Brigadier General
jphughan's Avatar
United_States
374
Rep
4,486
Posts

Drives: '16 Cayman GT4
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (0)

As others have mentioned OP, it sounds like you're asking whether you can count on DSC to let you be a leadfoot hooligan without fear that something bad will happen. You can't; tires can slip and the car can slide even with DSC on, especially in the rain -- and in any case you've got completely the wrong perspective on DSC anyway. DSC is designed primarily to help the car recover in an unexpected circumstance, such as slipping in wet weather because it was WET, not because it was wet AND you decided you could disregard that fact and drive as you please anyway just because DSC was on.

You'll get much more enjoyment out of the car and driving in general (not to mention be safer) if you get some driver training -- plus the driver training experience itself is a lot of fun. I use Euro MDM even on the track as sort of a teaching tool and last resort safety net. Euro MDM is lenient enough that it seems to get in the way only when I've messed up, so I like knowing that it's there and will reel me back if my current technique through a given area is incorrect or too aggressive -- but if I feel it intervene I make a mental note to adjust my technique there. I don't go out thinking that MDM being on absolves me of any responsibility to drive somewhat well or even that it's guaranteed to save me if I really screw the pooch somewhere.
__________________
'16 Cayman GT4 (delivery pics, comparison to E92 M3 write-up)

Gone but not forgotten:
'11.75 M3 E92 Le Mans | Black Nov w/ Alum | 6MT (owned 5/2011 - 11/2015)

Last edited by jphughan; 10-19-2012 at 10:07 AM.
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 09:21 AM   #13
Foodle
Captain
United_States
14
Rep
769
Posts

Drives: 2011.75 E90 M3
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: PA

iTrader: (0)

DSC only works if the car has >91 octane gas in it

Seriously, DSC is only a driver aid, not some magic technology that will always keep you safe. It will not save you from boneheaded driving, and in normal driving on public streets, it should only activate in the case of an unexpected emergency (e.g., black ice during the winter, not that you get that in the Bay Area). If you drive like a maniac around Palo Alto, DSC on or off, you're likely to mow down a dozen kids of Internet millionaires, so be safe out there.

[for anyone confused, see: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=759843]

Last edited by Foodle; 10-19-2012 at 09:33 AM.
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 11:08 AM   #14
ndj
Private
ndj's Avatar
United Kingdom
0
Rep
62
Posts

Drives: E90 M3 & E82 118d M Sport
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foodle View Post
If you drive like a maniac around Palo Alto, DSC on or off, you're likely to mow down a dozen kids of Internet millionaires, so be safe out there.
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 11:57 AM   #15
gblansten
Beandoc
gblansten's Avatar
United_States
465
Rep
3,123
Posts

Drives: 2017 BMW X5M DG/AB
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Thick ascending limb

iTrader: (0)

Physics gonna be physics.
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 12:06 PM   #16
Foodle
Captain
United_States
14
Rep
769
Posts

Drives: 2011.75 E90 M3
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cacofonix View Post
if I am taking a controlled turn at a high speed, ... [can] the tires slip when DSC is ON?
Yes

The questions you're asking genuinely make me fear for your life and for the lives of the people around you. Please be safe. You have a nice new toy, but a foolish mistake in a 414hp 3700lbs car can lead to a tragedy that you can never undo.
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 12:10 PM   #17
jmgM3
Private First Class
jmgM3's Avatar
United_States
5
Rep
136
Posts

Drives: E90 M3 - 6MT - Jerez Blk
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Houston TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
Correct. Here is a video of mine on a wet track day for anyone who is interested in getting an idea of how much slip MDM allows in the wet. Fast forward to 4.50 onwards, which is when the track gets wet and rains heavily for the rest of the video.

Ohhh... that track looks fabulous!
__________________

2011 E90 M3 - Jrz Blk - 6MT
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 12:20 PM   #18
Talk2meg00se
Captain
United_States
45
Rep
640
Posts

Drives: 2013 E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgM3 View Post
Ohhh... that track looks fabulous!
Yeah it does - beautiful!
__________________
TiAg | ZCP | DCT | Euro MDM | ESS Tune (240E) | AA filter | MS Pulley | Akra Evo | MS Spacers | 255/275 M4S | H8 180s | Ti Shadow Trim
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 12:26 PM   #19
bnombe
Second Lieutenant
bnombe's Avatar
Canada
4
Rep
234
Posts

Drives: '12 E92M3 6MT/ZCP/JetBlkFoxRed
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (0)

All the discussions / debate about OP's alleged perception on DSC and the suggestion to take performance driving are all good. People just sharing opinions mostly with caution for safety and preventing unnecessary tragedy.

One thing interesting that OP left out quite vaguely is just how fast the speed was. Anyway, it makes no difference to the general feedback he's looking for I guess.

Rain season has started in my area and yeah I can totally feel the differential doing its work when I am pulling out of driveway turning on to the road even at low speed. I still have full DSC on all the time since picking my car up < 3 months ago. It's still the driver's job to modulate the basic input: throttle, clutch, brakes and steering angle.
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 12:27 PM   #20
ChiTownM
Lieutenant
ChiTownM's Avatar
United_States
54
Rep
557
Posts

Drives: M and i BMWs
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (0)

I just did the M Performance 2 day school and ended up in the grass with the M5 and MDM, monster turbo torque but it was fun though! Everybody commenting that DSC can not defy the laws of physics is absolutely correct and the driver has the ultimate responsibility for their ultimate driving machine.........
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 01:52 PM   #21
NoM3ForMe
Major
NoM3ForMe's Avatar
United_States
24
Rep
1,439
Posts

Drives: '10 Legacy, '07 Kia Sorrento
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: ...location, location?

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via MSN to NoM3ForMe
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
Correct. Here is a video of mine on a wet track day for anyone who is interested in getting an idea of how much slip MDM allows in the wet. Fast forward to 4.50 onwards, which is when the track gets wet and rains heavily for the rest of the video.

Nice video. Was that a Noble in front of you at the beginning? I couldn't tell...
__________________
try { Life.Live(); } catch (Experience exp) { Console.WriteLine(exp.ToString(); } finally { Brian.Dispose(); }
"There are only 10 kinds of people in the world; those that read binary, and those that don't."
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 02:08 PM   #22
TVMA Doc
Captain
TVMA Doc's Avatar
31
Rep
840
Posts

Drives: 2011 E90 M3, Jerez Black
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SF Bay

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Yes, the DSC is going to react to the wheels slipping, not scan the road ahead and keep them from slipping. If you take a turn at too high a speed, hit a slick patch, etc. you will slip/drift before the DSC reduces power to the affected wheel to try to reduce the chance of a spin.

I saw a recent test that stated that DSC/traction control systems currently in use can reduce the chance of a spin out during radical emergency maneuvers by about 2/3rds. You might note that it is NOT 100%.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:39 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST