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      07-25-2007, 05:11 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by M3onTwomps View Post
1) Will it be sold in the US?

2) How much? The E46 CSL was quite a bit more than the base M3.

3) If it's like the last CSL, it won't really be much of a daily driver and thus defeats the purpose for most people.
Although you can always jack up the price a bit more by adding stereo, a/c, heated seats etc. and (like many CSL owners) turn it into a "daily driver".
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      07-25-2007, 06:21 AM   #24
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Those wanting to drop a large amount of change on a very comfortable, capable machine will buy the M3.

Those who want the best M can offer, with more focussed steering and less weight, will pay the extra to get the CSL.
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      07-25-2007, 07:26 AM   #25
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And, DCT will probably add even more weight.
I agree, however I think it is important to realize the vastly improved performance benefits from the DCT.

I think the *average* M3 owner will see about a .8 to 1 second advantage in all acceleration areas of the car with M-DCT. The mags may only quote a .5 sec gain over the manual (which is still enormous) but those guys are professionals.

I can't wait for my M-DCT M3.
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      07-25-2007, 08:05 AM   #26
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I agree, however I think it is important to realize the vastly improved performance benefits from the DCT.

I think the *average* M3 owner will see about a .8 to 1 second advantage in all acceleration areas of the car with M-DCT. The mags may only quote a .5 sec gain over the manual (which is still enormous) but those guys are professionals.

I can't wait for my M-DCT M3.
True, but that's acceleration performance. The weight doesn't help with the handling. I'll probably get it regardless.
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      07-25-2007, 08:05 AM   #27
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Thanks.
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      07-25-2007, 12:43 PM   #28
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Now you go too far. You're right, his claim could be understood in different ways. But in one way it would be correct (assuming he's comparing to the weight the new car would have with no more light weight materials used than on the outgoing car). So we're far away from being "purposefully misleading."

But that are also just my 2 cents (of course meaning EURO cents)

Best regards, south
This childish bickering is going no where. From all that I've read so far, the new M3 is a disappointment. It is below expectations in both styling and performance. Conversely, the competition is very much improved and on par and in many respects superior. This is not good news for the M3, especially after all the hype over the last couple of years.

No more excuses. Sure M3 fans have high expectations and well they should. When I have to purposely go out and test drive the competition to make sure that my purchase of the M3 will be the best buy, then BMW has a problem. In past years, the competition were just names and never serious thoughts of what I was going to purchase - times have changed. All I can say is that BMW has to up the ante to regain its dominance..... and I hope that they do. But for now, I'm not a happy camper ......
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      07-25-2007, 01:03 PM   #29
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2 things

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This childish bickering is going no where. From all that I've read so far, the new M3 is a disappointment. It is below expectations in both styling and performance. Conversely, the competition is very much improved and on par and in many respects superior. This is not good news for the M3, especially after all the hype over the last couple of years.

No more excuses. Sure M3 fans have high expectations and well they should. When I have to purposely go out and test drive the competition to make sure that my purchase of the M3 will be the best buy, then BMW has a problem. In past years, the competition were just names and never serious thoughts of what I was going to purchase - times have changed. All I can say is that BMW has to up the ante to regain its dominance..... and I hope that they do. But for now, I'm not a happy camper ......
First of all south and I don't really "bicker", we debate. In fact we typically agree on almost all issues. I think it is kind of fun to really analyze the words from the top M boss in detail. Oh well if you don't like it don't read it.

Second, if you think the car is a disappointment I think there are only two possibilities: 1. You can't read or 2. You expected a huge margin of defeat of every close competitor in all categores. Heck I would have liked that as well, but it just ain't going to happen. Performance wise, engine, handling, brakes and even comfort the M3 is pretty phenomenal. It is going to embarass cars costing a lot more and even in comparisons with close competitors I think it will still come out on top. I guess my advice is adjust your expectations or enjoy your 4WD or your $100k car.
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      07-25-2007, 03:07 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by carnuts3 View Post
This childish bickering is going no where. From all that I've read so far, the new M3 is a disappointment. It is below expectations in both styling and performance. Conversely, the competition is very much improved and on par and in many respects superior. This is not good news for the M3, especially after all the hype over the last couple of years.

No more excuses. Sure M3 fans have high expectations and well they should. When I have to purposely go out and test drive the competition to make sure that my purchase of the M3 will be the best buy, then BMW has a problem. In past years, the competition were just names and never serious thoughts of what I was going to purchase - times have changed. All I can say is that BMW has to up the ante to regain its dominance..... and I hope that they do. But for now, I'm not a happy camper ......
I can only second what Swamp said, we don't bicker, we're discussing...

It's honestly sad if the new M3 is a disappointment for YOU. Just as Swamp said the right description for the new M3 is just phenomenal! The car doesn't need any excuses, furthermore there is not one real performance test done yet. So what is all that disappointment based on?

Best regards, south
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      07-25-2007, 03:32 PM   #31
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No more excuses. Sure M3 fans have high expectations and well they should. When I have to purposely go out and test drive the competition to make sure that my purchase of the M3 will be the best buy, then BMW has a problem. In past years, the competition were just names and never serious thoughts of what I was going to purchase - times have changed. All I can say is that BMW has to up the ante to regain its dominance..... and I hope that they do. But for now, I'm not a happy camper ......
Well, yes, none of the reviews have started with the sentence, "The E92 M3 is the next great sports car we've been expecting." However, none of them called it a disappointment either. They pretty much all say it is a best buy. If you paid attention, none of the reviews ended up with, "you should seriously consider the Audi or the Benz". If anything, they ended up with, "you should consider the CSL if this is not enough" which will not be in this class of cars to begin with. If one decides that it is indeed "a best buy" after driving it and buys it, what's the problem?

Also, I don't see what's wrong with the M3 having competition. BMW are in a market segment they pretty much pioneered, and after several iterations and increasing sales, others are coming in. And, as consumers, we should all be glad that we now have the option to "purposely go out and test drive the competition to make sure that our purchase of the M3 will be the best buy".
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      07-26-2007, 05:59 PM   #32
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Mr. Richter, sounds more like a used car sales man as opposed to the V.P. of one of the greatest car companies in the world.
-"911 a modern day VW bug". A very fair and balance view of the greatest iconic sports car ever made.
-"AMG low reving engines". The 6.3 revs up to 7000 RPM, hits peak torque @ around 2000. At the end of the day these are street cars, how many times a day can you get up to the redline anyway? At least if you care about having a drivers license.
-"R8 in his opinion is just a sedan clothed in new body". Are you kidding me?
R8 may share the same engine as an RS4 but they are a world apart in every aspect including the fun factor that he negates. How can you even compare a centrally mounted two seater to a much heavier four seater sedan?
One of the basic rules of marketing and sales is to promote your product and position yourself as a unique product where you have no need to compare or worst yet bad mouth others.
I know some of you will have your BMW reading glasses on and disagree with my comments, as the M division can never do or say anything wrong. But, I personally find his statements to be of poor taste, the same way I found throwing pictures of a 911 in the M3 catalogue to be out of place. Why in the hell would a manufacturer show pictures of another companies products?
If I buy an M3 it is because I want an M3 not because I can't afford a 997 so I will buy something that compares to it nicely!
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      07-26-2007, 06:03 PM   #33
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Mr. Richter, sounds more like a used car sales man as opposed to the V.P. of one of the greatest car companies in the world.
-"911 a modern day VW bug". A very fair and balance view of the greatest iconic sports car ever made.
-"AMG low reving engines". The 6.3 revs up to 7000 RPM, hits peak torque @ around 2000. At the end of the day these are street cars, how many times a day can you get up to the redline anyway? At least if you care about having a drivers license.
-"R8 in his opinion is just a sedan clothed in new body". Are you kidding me?
R8 may share the same engine as an RS4 but they are a world apart in every aspect including the fun factor that he negates. How can you even compare a centrally mounted two seater to a much heavier four seater sedan?
One of the basic rules of marketing and sales is to promote your product and position yourself as a unique product where you have no need to compare or worst yet bad mouth others.
I know some of you will have your BMW reading glasses on and disagree with my comments, as the M division can never do or say anything wrong. But, I personally find his statements to be of poor taste, the same way I found throwing pictures of a 911 in the M3 catalogue to be out of place. Why in the hell would a manufacturer show pictures of another companies products?
If I buy an M3 it is because I want an M3 not because I can't afford a 997 so I will buy something that compares to it nicely!
You are probably right that the guy is engaged in marketing talk. He says they are not worried about the competition, but the M engineers must have been thinking about the RS4 and the C63 on their way to work among other things. However, you are misinterpreting the purpose of the catalog. That was meant for the BMW saleforce, not for the customers.
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      07-26-2007, 06:07 PM   #34
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Quote:
Mr. Richter, sounds more like a used car sales man as opposed to the V.P. of one of the greatest car companies in the world.
-"911 a modern day VW bug". A very fair and balance view of the greatest iconic sports car ever made.
-"AMG low reving engines". The 6.3 revs up to 7000 RPM, hits peak torque @ around 2000. At the end of the day these are street cars, how many times a day can you get up to the redline anyway? At least if you care about having a drivers license.
-"R8 in his opinion is just a sedan clothed in new body". Are you kidding me?
R8 may share the same engine as an RS4 but they are a world apart in every aspect including the fun factor that he negates. How can you even compare a centrally mounted two seater to a much heavier four seater sedan?
One of the basic rules of marketing and sales is to promote your product and position yourself as a unique product where you have no need to compare or worst yet bad mouth others.
I know some of you will have your BMW reading glasses on and disagree with my comments, as the M division can never do or say anything wrong. But, I personally find his statements to be of poor taste, the same way I found throwing pictures of a 911 in the M3 catalogue to be out of place. Why in the hell would a manufacturer show pictures of another companies products?
If I buy an M3 it is because I want an M3 not because I can't afford a 997 so I will buy something that compares to it nicely!
I get your point. But to play devils advocate. He is not the only well know person in the automotive world to make snide comments about the rear engined wonder. Top Gear and Jeremy Clarkson come to mind.

I cant speak intelligently about the R8 so I wont go there.

Finally, BMW is not the first company to put direct competitors in its advertising or sales brochure.

EDIT: Oops almost forgot to mention that my 10yr old E36 M3 can rev to 7000....I dont think 7000 is high anymore by todays standards. Neither is my E36's 240HP stock....

Jason
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      07-26-2007, 06:20 PM   #35
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However, you are misinterpreting the purpose of the catalog. That was meant for the BMW saleforce, not for the customers.
Thanks for clearing that up. it just seemed wierd.
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      07-26-2007, 06:24 PM   #36
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EDIT: Oops almost forgot to mention that my 10yr old E36 M3 can rev to 7000....I dont think 7000 is high anymore by todays standards. Neither is my E36's 240HP stock....

Jason
And your 10 yr old E36 is still a great car and will continue to be in another 10 years even if the red line is @ 12000 then
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      07-26-2007, 06:28 PM   #37
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True, but that doesnt change the fact that everything is relative and 7000 RPM isnt that high. And, if the new M was just like the E36 M then it would be a pretty louzy sports coupe by todays standards.

Jason
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