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      07-25-2007, 04:39 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Okay, keep in mind you only pay for tires on the new M3 during the first 4 years. Everything else is covered, so costs associated with tracking should not be such a large setback. Tires are relatively cheap compared to brakes.
You have a point regarding the warranty.


Problem is, the track is sneaky. At least initially all the stock HW will suffice. The car will feel great and you will feel like a champ. Once you gain a little experience and start carrying some serious speed, other stock components start to show their limitations. Typically those are brakes, tires and suspension. At that point you start to "manage" your car's resources, no longer going full tilt - and that's very frustrating.

Specialized cars like the Elise usually have components that are correctly sized for track work, at the speeds the car can generate. I'm not sure you could say the same for the E46 M3 (ZCP perhaps excepted). And I would place my $10 bet that the new car will be worse in this regard, what with its increased mass and speed potential. I'll be curious to watch what the limitation will be.

Again, this is just speculation on my part. It could very well be that the E92 M3 will be quite adept at track work...
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      07-25-2007, 04:57 PM   #46
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Again, this is just speculation on my part. It could very well be that the E92 M3 will be quite adept at track work...
Based on the various rumored 'Ring times, I would say that is a safe bet.
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      07-25-2007, 05:08 PM   #47
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Have you driven an Elise, or are you simply repeating what you have read in magazines?
No, but then I don't recall reading about steering that is distant around the straight ahead.

Dead steering at any position is not a flaw a car with the reputation and price tag of the new M3 should have.
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      07-25-2007, 05:09 PM   #48
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[quote=adc;1215553]I have, and he's utterly right.

quote]

I don't doubt that CSL is right about the Elise. He is a close reader of magazine articles about performance cars. I do doubt that he has any experience driving the Elise, notwithstanding his very authoritative statement about the steering feel of the Elise.

CSL is a "dreamer". He is disapponted in the new M3 not because he intended to buy one, but rather because it is his "hero" (fantasy) car and he wanted to read tales of utter M domination in the magazine reviews.

Nothing wrong with that, of course. But as someone who may buy the new M3, it becomes tiresome to hear constant fretting about negative opinions in magazine reviews about things like "steering feel" from someone like CSL who already has said he is not in a position to buy the car.

[EDIT: CSL responded to my query while I was composing this post.]
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      07-25-2007, 05:17 PM   #49
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As a young car enthusiast, I have limitations as to what I drive and what I will be buying.

However, the opinions of people paid to drive cars and drive many of them counts more to me, than those of people who've paid their own money on a car, because they like it. I like my iPod, because I paid for it, but I understand its limitations and know others say you can get better for less.

As for personal attacks about being a 'dreamer', how many 22 y.o. do you know in a position to buy an M3? For the record, I may as well list the vehicles I have driven in the three years I've held my license, just so you know I'm not someone who just reads magazines.

Learnt in a 1.0 Fiesta
Drove my Dad's 1.8 Vectra from the day I passed(yeah, this had a mute steering rack everywhere, but at least had grip and taught me things about car control)
Megane 225 Cup
Focus 1.6 (Autocar's long-termer)
Ford S-Max 2.5 Turbo (pre-launch, driven to the Ford press garage in an M6 - didn't think much of the interior)
Jaguar XJ 2.7 TDV6. Very nice and I was grinning like an idiot, having just turned 21. David Vivian's long-termer
Cadillac SRX 4.6. Sounded like a Nascar (Still have the recording I made of it on my phone)
Vauxhall Astra Coupe 1.8

And now my own BMW 320i, which is my first car and I intend to stay with BMW, hopefully buying my first M3 in a couple of years (E36, obviously)
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      07-25-2007, 05:23 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
You have a point regarding the warranty.


Problem is, the track is sneaky. At least initially all the stock HW will suffice. The car will feel great and you will feel like a champ. Once you gain a little experience and start carrying some serious speed, other stock components start to show their limitations. Typically those are brakes, tires and suspension. At that point you start to "manage" your car's resources, no longer going full tilt - and that's very frustrating.

Specialized cars like the Elise usually have components that are correctly sized for track work, at the speeds the car can generate. I'm not sure you could say the same for the E46 M3 (ZCP perhaps excepted). And I would place my $10 bet that the new car will be worse in this regard, what with its increased mass and speed potential. I'll be curious to watch what the limitation will be.

Again, this is just speculation on my part. It could very well be that the E92 M3 will be quite adept at track work...
It is true that the E46 M3 and 135 are lighter than the E92 M3, but not by a huge margin. The 135 is not as light as it looks. So the costs associated with tracking those cars should not be that much less than tracking the E92 M3.

By bringing up the Elise again, you are asking me to go back to my original question: Assuming you can own only one car, would you buy the Elise or one of E46 M3/E92 M3/135?
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      07-25-2007, 05:29 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CSL View Post
As a young car enthusiast, I have limitations as to what I drive and what I will be buying.

However, the opinions of people paid to drive cars and drive many of them counts more to me, than those of people who've paid their own money on a car, because they like it. I like my iPod, because I paid for it, but I understand its limitations and know others say you can get better for less.

As for personal attacks about being a 'dreamer', how many 22 y.o. do you know in a position to buy an M3? For the record, I may as well list the vehicles I have driven in the three years I've held my license, just so you know I'm not someone who just reads magazines.

Learnt in a 1.0 Fiesta
Drove my Dad's 1.8 Vectra from the day I passed(yeah, this had a mute steering rack everywhere, but at least had grip and taught me things about car control)
Megane 225 Cup
Focus 1.6 (Autocar's long-termer)
Ford S-Max 2.5 Turbo (pre-launch, driven to the Ford press garage in an M6 - didn't think much of the interior)
Jaguar XJ 2.7 TDV6. Very nice and I was grinning like an idiot, having just turned 21. David Vivian's long-termer
Cadillac SRX 4.6. Sounded like a Nascar (Still have the recording I made of it on my phone)
Vauxhall Astra Coupe 1.8

And now my own BMW 320i, which is my first car and I intend to stay with BMW, hopefully buying my first M3 in a couple of years (E36, obviously)
I am not casting aspersions about those who like to dream about cars. I am not casting aspersions about not being able to afford the new M3 or any other car. It is honorable to live within your means, whatever they may be.

I am saying it is grating to keep reading negativity here on a forum for the new M3 from someone who is not intending to buy the car.

Do you go to Ferrarichat and complain that the 599 does not have enough headroom to wear a racing helmet? Perhaps you are a member of the Veyron board (is there such a thing) so you can complain about the placement of the cupholders or the fuel mileage?
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      07-25-2007, 05:31 PM   #52
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Indeed I do not, but as much as I like the looks and the package of the M3, from my own personal opinions of how certain cars should be, these points are disappointing to know.

Perhaps I'll stop posting them, as I'm wearing out the M, 3, S, T, E etc keys on my keyboard...

Current funds rule me out from buying the car. Not lack of desire to own one, because I would at the drop of a hat were funds permitting, just so I could drive the damn thing.
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      07-25-2007, 05:37 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by The CSL View Post
Indeed I do not, but as much as I like the looks and the package of the M3, from my own personal opinions of how certain cars should be, these points are disappointing to know.

Perhaps I'll stop posting them, as I'm wearing out the M, 3, S, T, E etc keys on my keyboard...

Current funds rule me out from buying the car. Not lack of desire to own one, because I would at the drop of a hat were funds permitting, just so I could drive the damn thing.
CSL, I'm sure you are a very thoughtful and hardworking person and some day you will be in a position to buy whatever car you want. Hopefully when that day comes, and you are excited to be placing your order for the new 2011 GT3RSR, you will not have to read a flurry of negative posts about the car from someone who will only read about it in a magazine.

Cheers.
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      07-25-2007, 05:40 PM   #54
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If I was in the position to buy a GT3RSR, I'd rather spend it on a version of each M3 so far, just to have the complete set and whatever my mood suited me.
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      07-25-2007, 05:46 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILC32 View Post
I am not casting aspersions about those who like to dream about cars. I am not casting aspersions about not being able to afford the new M3 or any other car. It is honorable to live within your means, whatever they may be.

I am saying it is grating to keep reading negativity here on a forum for the new M3 from someone who is not intending to buy the car.

Do you go to Ferrarichat and complain that the 599 does not have enough headroom to wear a racing helmet? Perhaps you are a member of the Veyron board (is there such a thing) so you can complain about the placement of the cupholders or the fuel mileage?
Although I agree that CSL seems to be rather negative for a person who won't be buying a M3 soon, I think he is well intentioned (not a troll). He also represents a significant/relevant viewpoint that is not that uncommon (I used to have a M3 poster on my wall when I was in college thinking I would most likely never be able to buy a brand new one): a M3 fan who happens not to be able to afford one at the time. So, I hear and partially agree with your concern as one can question the basis or motivation for some of the posts, but at the same it really seems okay, and his is just another perspective (as long as it is well intentioned). There are many other people posting on this forum who will never buy a M3, and they know it. At least, he is honest. My .02 US cents worth...
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      07-26-2007, 01:36 AM   #56
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And the problem is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILC32 View Post
He is a close reader of magazine articles about performance cars. I do doubt that he has any experience driving the Elise, notwithstanding his very authoritative statement about the steering feel of the Elise.

CSL is a "dreamer". He is disapponted in the new M3 not because he intended to buy one, but rather because it is his "hero" (fantasy) car and he wanted to read tales of utter M domination in the magazine reviews.

Nothing wrong with that, of course. But as someone who may buy the new M3, it becomes tiresome to hear constant fretting about negative opinions in magazine reviews about things like "steering feel" from someone like CSL who already has said he is not in a position to buy the car.
I think this is absolutely OK. I remeber being a young-un reading all about Porsche turbos with wild whales tails, the Lamborghini Countach as well as the original E30 M3. Never in a postition to buy any of them but I read voraciously and despite having very little hands on experience with nice cars (plenty trying to performance drive non-performance cars!) I knew facts and specs and reviews inside and out. There is no replacing actual driving but at the same time there is a place for those knowledgeable through their hands off education. Just because you can't, won't, don't want to drive/own a particular car does not disqualify you from being a vocal critic or fan of it. Keep up the posts CSL!
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      07-26-2007, 09:52 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
By bringing up the Elise again, you are asking me to go back to my original question: Assuming you can own only one car, would you buy the Elise or one of E46 M3/E92 M3/135?
Any bimmer, no doubt. I'd buy my own E46 330i again before I'd buy an Elise for daily driving.
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      07-26-2007, 05:24 PM   #58
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It took me a while to confirm but EVO magazine is officially distributed and on the shelves of Barnes and Noble stores throughout the US. Unfortunately it takes approximately 1 month after publication to reach the shelves. Oh dear.

The video editing is also taking a while to get onto EVO's website so I am loading a few 'smallish' vids just to add to what you've heard already.

It's taken ages to load this so will try and load another tomorrow morning.



I thought I would post a few of the M3 being driven 'normally' (sort of) rather than the track-biased actions shots.

Last edited by Steved; 07-26-2007 at 05:56 PM.
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      07-26-2007, 06:41 PM   #59
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Just like to say that although I read the articles on here and dont usually buy EVO I went out and bought it as I felt I should after reading the article for free and its a good read so Ill be buying it from now on.

Cheers.
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      07-26-2007, 06:59 PM   #60
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One more vid...



and another, this time of the RS4 following the M3 up the mountain. Shame about the distortion of the picture as it is loaded into youtube.


Last edited by Steved; 07-27-2007 at 03:45 AM.
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      08-11-2007, 11:29 PM   #61
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.......... how many 22 y.o. do you know in a position to buy an M3?........
Good point. Based on the chart, M3 E46, only ~83139 people in the whole world of cars shoppers can be a first hand owner anyway.

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      05-19-2008, 10:38 PM   #62
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[quote=ILC32;1215910]
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post

Nothing wrong with that, of course. But as someone who may buy the new M3, it becomes tiresome to hear constant fretting about negative opinions in magazine reviews about things like "steering feel" from someone like CSL who already has said he is not in a position to buy the car.

[EDIT: CSL responded to my query while I was composing this post.]
I hear ya. I am in the process of evaluating this car for purchase, and it is a bit disheartening (and confusing) to read all the negative crap about what appears to be a very good car. I've owned my e36 for 10 years now and loved every minute of it, but I have to admit I'm getting a little old for its personality on a daily basis. I am, in fact, the guy that most of you enthusiasts hate - the target audience for the new M3. I've only spent a few minutes in one, and I am very impressed with the car. I do agree the steering vagueness is a damn shame, but the rest of the car (fuel economy notwithstanding) is pretty much what this old geezer is looking for. And no, I'm not interested in a more sedate 3 or 5 series - I want to have my cake and eat it, too. I also drove a 335, which is a fantastic car as well, except when you put it next to the M. I also don't want run-flat tires, which, unless I'm mistaken, is how that car is equipped.

Maybe the new 1 series will offer something edgy enough to put a smile on the faces of the folks pining for the old E30. BMW is a business, and like any other business, they have to balance customer satisfaction with stockholder satisfaction. If you don't like the new 3, there are other options out there.

How's that for a first post - how stupid did I come off sounding?
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      05-20-2008, 09:51 AM   #63
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How's that for a first post - how stupid did I come off sounding?
Not stupid at all. I test drove the M3 sedan last week and - steering feel and lightness excepted - came away impressed. There are two hurdles between me and an M3 - the steep price increase over say a 135i ($20-22k), and the dismal gas mileage (about half of what the 135i gets).

I did "get" the car, it's a dual personality beast - Mr. Hyde comes out when you set it in Sport mode and he will not take any prisoners. Absolutely epic engine, the best I've ever driven so far - and a soundtrack to die for.

But for those other times when the EDC is set to Comfort, Power setting is off, and DSC enabled, it makes a lot less sense than a 135i. I drove it back to back with the M3, and far from feeling slow or slow-witted, it exuded a personality of its own. Perhaps in a few years I'll be able to pick a used M3, although by that time gas will probably cost $8 a gallon, the roads will be even more congested and enforced and it will make even less daily sense than today...

Bottom line - what an awesome car, fluffy steering and all.
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      05-20-2008, 12:13 PM   #64
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[quote=MrClean;2698573]
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Originally Posted by ILC32 View Post

I hear ya. I am in the process of evaluating this car for purchase, and it is a bit disheartening (and confusing) to read all the negative crap about what appears to be a very good car. I've owned my e36 for 10 years now and loved every minute of it, but I have to admit I'm getting a little old for its personality on a daily basis. I am, in fact, the guy that most of you enthusiasts hate - the target audience for the new M3. I've only spent a few minutes in one, and I am very impressed with the car. I do agree the steering vagueness is a damn shame, but the rest of the car (fuel economy notwithstanding) is pretty much what this old geezer is looking for. And no, I'm not interested in a more sedate 3 or 5 series - I want to have my cake and eat it, too. I also drove a 335, which is a fantastic car as well, except when you put it next to the M. I also don't want run-flat tires, which, unless I'm mistaken, is how that car is equipped.

Maybe the new 1 series will offer something edgy enough to put a smile on the faces of the folks pining for the old E30. BMW is a business, and like any other business, they have to balance customer satisfaction with stockholder satisfaction. If you don't like the new 3, there are other options out there.

How's that for a first post - how stupid did I come off sounding?
I guess they all hate me too . Great first post and welcome. You've certainly expressed my feelings. I like the M3 and based on all the reports I will probably choose it over its competitors -- RS4, IS-F, C63 -- when the time comes.

Everybody should realize that all cars are an exercise in compromise. Which means every car will have its faults. But IMHO, the M3 has the least compromises and excels in all the areas that count for me in a car that I can afford. It's truly an amazing engineering accomplishment.

Bashing it like people are doing here seems pretty juvenile to me. But, hey, I guess everyone has a right to present their uneducated opinion here on the internet. Cheers.
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      05-20-2008, 12:36 PM   #65
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I'm pretty sure that BMW corporate did some marketing study and will try to cater for their target audience that will bring more money in. As those hardcore M3 driver that didn't like the new M3 because of weight and so forth. Any products, may it be cars or pencil, cannot satisfy all of the people who use it. All they have to do is choose a group of buyers that will bring in more income. That is how corporate operates now unless you are buying those exotic cars that money is not an issue. I am one of the few(?) who likes the car, 100%, as what it is. I've never driven any previous M3 so I am not in a position to compare it. I've owned a P car(987S) and currently driving an E92 335i. I know that there are some aspects of the car that is not at par with previous M3's. I bought (still waiting) the car for the whole package and I just have to live with it.
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      05-20-2008, 12:46 PM   #66
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My guess is that there are fewer customers out there (and by customers I mean folks willing and able to pony up the cash) that want the ultra-edgy version. Low production numbers means much higher prices. I think they were smart (from a business perspective) to build a car that appeals to a wider market, bringing the price down. There is a version on the way to appeal to the other crowd, and its price will be subsidized by the margins BMW will make on the "softer" car. In the meantime, I'm sure there are mods that can be done to sharpen the stock M3.

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