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      11-14-2012, 09:54 PM   #199
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      11-14-2012, 10:17 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Presidio335xi View Post
The only real difference now between my car and an M3 is that I modded my 3 series and BMW Motorsport tuned the your 3 series.
This is a common misconception of people who don't own M3s. The entire drive train of the M3 is different (engine, transmission, suspension). Calling this a "tune" seems disingenuous.
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      11-15-2012, 10:13 AM   #201
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over 80 percent of the parts on an m3 are different than a regular 3 series. Hardly a tune.

It has more rigidity and extra support braces, flat undercarriage, composite body panels in much of the car.

Only the doors and the trunk lid are the same essentially.

Entire suspension is different, geometry and everything. Engine obviously is 10 steps above and it looks a hell of a lot better.

However if your eally look at all the extra supports, including the sway bars, undercarriage and strut tower big thick aluminum braces, the rigidity and handling is something you cant create with simply an aftermarket set of coil overs unless you are also changing out the knuckles, camber plates, toe links, adding several support beams under neath and adding a new strut brace in the engine bay.
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      11-15-2012, 11:43 AM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
over 80 percent of the parts on an m3 are different than a regular 3 series. Hardly a tune.

It has more rigidity and extra support braces, flat undercarriage, composite body panels in much of the car.

Only the doors and the trunk lid are the same essentially.

Entire suspension is different, geometry and everything. Engine obviously is 10 steps above and it looks a hell of a lot better.

However if your eally look at all the extra supports, including the sway bars, undercarriage and strut tower big thick aluminum braces, the rigidity and handling is something you cant create with simply an aftermarket set of coil overs unless you are also changing out the knuckles, camber plates, toe links, adding several support beams under neath and adding a new strut brace in the engine bay.
It's hard to overestimate how effective additional bracing can be. As an example, we bolted a small, under-transmission X-brace (from a convertible M3) onto our '95 M3 coupe, and the difference in overall rigidity from the driver's perspective was astounding.

Yeah. M3 and basic 3 are two way different animals, any way you cut it.

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      11-15-2012, 12:14 PM   #203
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I've owned a 335i and three e92 M3s. I've gotten in to autocross pretty heavily, all of which has been done in the M3, over the past year. A buddy who purchased my 335i came to an autocross event with me last month. I was very surprised how great the stock 335i handled the course. The car was planted beyond my expectations. Its a great car, no doubt.

I also do a fair amount of track days and can see the M3 working the 335i on the track (as well as autocross). I prefer the M3, but, for what the 335i is and attempts to do, it is exceptional.
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      11-15-2012, 05:10 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eisenb11 View Post
This is a common misconception of people who don't own M3s. The entire drive train of the M3 is different (engine, transmission, suspension). Calling this a "tune" seems disingenuous.
The engine is obviously different, but I have upgraded my suspension, clutch, FW, wheels, tires, etc. A "tune" isn't related to simply the engine. There is nothing disingenuous about my claim.

Hell, I even have awd which isn't available on the M3.

My car has driving characteristics that are DIFFERENT than an M3, and they are both based on the SAME 3 series platform
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      11-15-2012, 05:13 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
over 80 percent of the parts on an m3 are different than a regular 3 series. Hardly a tune.
Again, the point you are missing is that a high percentage of my 3 series is ALSO different from the stock car.

Its not that I just have a procede tune. Even my brake fluid is aftermarket.

Motorsport tuned your 3 series and I tuned mine. Why is that so hard to understand?
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      11-15-2012, 09:28 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Presidio335xi View Post
The engine is obviously different, but I have upgraded my suspension, clutch, FW, wheels, tires, etc. A "tune" isn't related to simply the engine. There is nothing disingenuous about my claim.

Hell, I even have awd which isn't available on the M3.

My car has driving characteristics that are DIFFERENT than an M3, and they are both based on the SAME 3 series platform
I guess you could also put in a Ferrari engine while you're at it.

Personally, I think 335 vs M3 posts are worthless unless you're comparing stock to stock.

If you go aftermarket the sky is the limit, but your reliability is questionable, and there's no warranty. There are plenty of videos of CTS-V station wagons blowing away Lambos - that is the power of after market enhancements.

Along the same lines, I believe saying things along the line of 335 > M3 when the former is heavily modded is also disingenuous or at the least irrelevant.
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      11-16-2012, 04:36 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
over 80 percent of the parts on an m3 are different than a regular 3 series. Hardly a tune.

It has more rigidity and extra support braces, flat undercarriage, composite body panels in much of the car.

Only the doors and the trunk lid are the same essentially.

Entire suspension is different, geometry and everything. Engine obviously is 10 steps above and it looks a hell of a lot better.

However if your eally look at all the extra supports, including the sway bars, undercarriage and strut tower big thick aluminum braces, the rigidity and handling is something you cant create with simply an aftermarket set of coil overs unless you are also changing out the knuckles, camber plates, toe links, adding several support beams under neath and adding a new strut brace in the engine bay.
Since you mention that big fat aluminium strut brace twice in your post, I'll just say that it costs a mere $250 and can be retrofitted in any E9X model, just as 90% of the chassis parts.

And if you track the M3 somewhat seriously, you'll change out the stock camber plates, toe links, brakes etc just the same as you upgrade them on an 335i

You're really blinded by the big ///M - Marketing.
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      11-16-2012, 08:29 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autobahn335i View Post
Since you mention that big fat aluminium strut brace twice in your post, I'll just say that it costs a mere $250 and can be retrofitted in any E9X model, just as 90% of the chassis parts.

And if you track the M3 somewhat seriously, you'll change out the stock camber plates, toe links, brakes etc just the same as you upgrade them on an 335i

You're really blinded by the big ///M - Marketing.
When you start tracking any car seriously you tend to enter a separate category as far as money/time commitment goes. Once you start truly modifying to get near a dedicated track car status, you start to lose daily drivability and then you have to ask yourself "what is truly the best platform to start with?"

You're right that all of the parts differences between an M3 and 335i are easily interchangeable. But if you look at it from a cost perspective, look at the price of an 335i and the costs and labor to change out all of those parts and see how close the price differential comes to an M3? Even if you change out the parts yourself, if you value your time at say if a paltry $50/hour (granted most people who do this type of work tend to enjoy it so they don't see simulated labor costs as a valid element of the equation) do you come out ahead?

While you say that ///M is mostly marketing, there is no denying the fact that a true ///M car does have a modified chassis compared to its regular series brethren. It's up to each person to answer for themselves the question "Is the price differential for the better 'engineered' chassis (and engine) worth it?" If you think you can source the parts to "one-up" BMW engineers with a regular 'series' car, then you have your answer. If you don't really want to be bothered with trying and are happy with what BMW came up with, then you have your answer...
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      11-16-2012, 11:21 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaq diesel View Post
When you start tracking any car seriously you tend to enter a separate category as far as money/time commitment goes. Once you start truly modifying to get near a dedicated track car status, you start to lose daily drivability and then you have to ask yourself "what is truly the best platform to start with?"

You're right that all of the parts differences between an M3 and 335i are easily interchangeable. But if you look at it from a cost perspective, look at the price of an 335i and the costs and labor to change out all of those parts and see how close the price differential comes to an M3? Even if you change out the parts yourself, if you value your time at say if a paltry $50/hour (granted most people who do this type of work tend to enjoy it so they don't see simulated labor costs as a valid element of the equation) do you come out ahead?

While you say that ///M is mostly marketing, there is no denying the fact that a true ///M car does have a modified chassis compared to its regular series brethren. It's up to each person to answer for themselves the question "Is the price differential for the better 'engineered' chassis (and engine) worth it?" If you think you can source the parts to "one-up" BMW engineers with a regular 'series' car, then you have your answer. If you don't really want to be bothered with trying and are happy with what BMW came up with, then you have your answer...
I agree with you. My car started out as a unmodified daily driver and was transformed into a fast and very track capable car over the last years. An M3 is better performing "out of the box", but you need equally deep pockets once you start modding it.

And for some, inherent disadvantages of the M3 (fuel consumption, way higher insurance costs, maintenance) are important factors whilst it may not bother for others.

To answer your first question what truly the best platform to start with is: neither a 335i nor an M3 but rather a 911 GT3
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      11-16-2012, 02:43 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eisenb11 View Post
Personally, I think 335 vs M3 posts are worthless unless you're comparing stock to stock.
I think the point we come from is you can buy an M3 for ~$60k and you can buy a 335 for ~$45k then I have $15k to modify my car to a standard comparable to an M3.

But it is my standard, not Motorsports. I assume this makes sense.

I will not argue that the fit and finish of the M3 is probably better given the package deal you get, but I can have a faster car that handles better and has a better sound system, but may lack on interior design and front + back bumper style and exhaust note. Or I can have a superior interior and faster car that may not handle as well as an M3, etc.

See the point?
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      11-16-2012, 02:53 PM   #211
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^yea but the thing is 95% of car buyers dont want to mod their cars as that takes away the reliability and driveability. The only way to compare is stock vs stock.
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      11-16-2012, 03:31 PM   #212
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      11-16-2012, 04:16 PM   #213
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      11-17-2012, 05:46 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Presidio335xi View Post
The engine is obviously different, but I have upgraded my suspension, clutch, FW, wheels, tires, etc. A "tune" isn't related to simply the engine. There is nothing disingenuous about my claim.
Look - I do have an m3, but an m3 'vert AND a DCT. Hopefully that convinces you I have no dog in this hunt.

That said, you might as well say that both cars are on the BMW platform or that both cars are on the car platform.

They're totally different cars stock, period, case closed. Your mods then make your car even more different.

The bottom line is that you don't own an M3. If that fact didn't concern you, you wouldn't be here trying to convince everyone you sorta do.

Compare stats if you like, but your car is not an M3 and never will be - get cool with that, like I'm cool with the fact that none of these track hounds respect my e93 DCT.
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      11-17-2012, 11:43 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Look - I do have an m3, but an m3 'vert AND a DCT. Hopefully that convinces you I have no dog in this hunt.

That said, you might as well say that both cars are on the BMW platform or that both cars are on the car platform.

They're totally different cars stock, period, case closed. Your mods then make your car even more different.

The bottom line is that you don't own an M3. If that fact didn't concern you, you wouldn't be here trying to convince everyone you sorta do.

Compare stats if you like, but your car is not an M3 and never will be - get cool with that, like I'm cool with the fact that none of these track hounds respect my e93 DCT.
It is true that M3 owners rarely, if ever, go to 335 forums to justify their purchases. However, many 335 owners do that very thing. Seems to me that they are trying to convince others that their car is "just" as good when modified (read, no warranty) because they worry about it for some reason. It isn't an M3 and that is OK... no need to prove anything.
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      11-18-2012, 12:17 AM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Presidio335xi View Post
I think the point we come from is you can buy an M3 for ~$60k and you can buy a 335 for ~$45k then I have $15k to modify my car to a standard comparable to an M3.

But it is my standard, not Motorsports. I assume this makes sense.

I will not argue that the fit and finish of the M3 is probably better given the package deal you get, but I can have a faster car that handles better and has a better sound system, but may lack on interior design and front + back bumper style and exhaust note. Or I can have a superior interior and faster car that may not handle as well as an M3, etc.

See the point?
While there is a lot that mods can do... No amount of mods is going to put a V8, a DCT transmission, or a warranty on your car.

At the end of the day, the M3 contains things that you simply CANNOT bolt on to your car and should my engine blow, or transmission, or suspension or anything break for some reason I'm covered by a warranty for 4 years.

You can make a Honda Civic faster than a Lambo... but there's no question that I'd rather have the Lambo still.
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      11-18-2012, 12:20 AM   #217
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You can make a Honda Civic faster than a Lambo..
You can?
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      11-18-2012, 03:13 AM   #218
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You can?
Two options I can think of:

(1.) JATO


(2.) Turbine
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      11-18-2012, 01:38 PM   #219
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Two options I can think of:

(1.) JATO

(2.) Turbine
So where is the civic?
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      11-18-2012, 04:57 PM   #220
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You can?
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Originally Posted by Khrishna View Post
So where is the civic?
FINE.

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