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      09-06-2012, 03:48 PM   #1
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help me set up for the nurburgring.

Car specs:

E90 with EDC
6 speed
ESS 575
HFC, Xpipe
Stock rotors, stoptech brakes.
Nitto Nt 01's 245/40/18 and 275/35/18

What can I do next to improve handling? Yes, coilovers sound nice, but too pricey. Car feels jerky when i'm in EDC sport, and feels a lot better in Normal, but A LOT of body roll! I talked to some drivers there and they say that too stiff is bad for this track, cause it's all bumpy. How can I reduce body roll without making it too stiff (too stiff is too bouncy/jerky)? I was really considering H&R race (my buddy has them and the car handles like a champ, so it seems), or dinan stage 1.. what would be better? I want to keep cars DD, as I use it to travel around europe.

my current best 8 flat BTG (today, first time with Nt01's)(i'm sure i can knock off a tad more). 8.10 with street tires.
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      09-06-2012, 11:37 PM   #2
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IMO, the stock suspension is pretty good. I don't think any spring or sleeve kit will be a significant upgrade. I have the dinan stage 2 w/GC camber plates. The stage 2 didn't do much, the camber plates really helped with front end grip and tire wear.

I think the best thing you can do keeping the OEM shocks is front camber plates, solid rear subframe bushings and bigger sways.

The old E90 ring taxi's were very fast...all OEM to include the PS2 tires. It did have upgraded brake pads. Keep in mind that it almost always had 4 people in it.
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      09-07-2012, 12:14 AM   #3
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All I can add is you want to stay out of EDC Sport unless you want to switch in and out of it depending where on track you are. Your power and tire changes are already making a huge difference over stock, about 20-30 seconds or so by my guess. I doubt you are giving up much time because of body roll although on video we've seen inside tires lifted off the pavement. I'm wondering if you need a bit more tire up front, perhaps a square setup.

Are you running with DSC off?
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      09-07-2012, 03:38 AM   #4
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      09-07-2012, 05:35 AM   #5
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I was just there a week ago. Track surface is VERY bumpy at times. Unless you know the exact location of these bumps, keep it in a soft setting (especially with that much torque).
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      09-07-2012, 06:15 AM   #6
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Will you be at the ring over the weekend? I will arrive tomorrow and stay through Sunday. I drive a dark grey E90 with Düsseldorf-Plates.

I just increased the front camber to the max and will test how it feels. Should be something between 1.3 and 1.5 deg, I presume. Is this something you already did?

On my previous car bigger sway bars were a great improvement on the handling.
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      09-07-2012, 11:32 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erhan View Post
I was just there a week ago. Track surface is VERY bumpy at times. Unless you know the exact location of these bumps, keep it in a soft setting (especially with that much torque).
IIRC, isn't the first half relatively smooth until the carousel? So maybe he could stay in full stiff. Personally, I'd just stay in one setting. That last thing you need on the 'ring is one more thing to think about.

Some body roll isn't bad as long as your suspension doesn't bind or run out of travel. Which can be an issue in the rear with the separate spring and damper. Your travel will be limited by the spring most likely.
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      09-07-2012, 01:48 PM   #8
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I will be there this sunday.

Yes most of the track is very bumpy and rough. My TC light comes on quite a bit on the "straights". On the first main straight I was able to hit 170mph, TC kicked in half way down. Car is quite jumpy in sport settings, so when I tried in normal it was better. I'll try soft, but I think it will be insane amount of body roll. Are there any effective anti-roll bars?

hmmm, I really don't want to mess with camber too much, the car is daily driver, and a tour er.

Buddy of mine has an E90 as well, and he put on H&R race.. when I rode with him the car felt a lot more planted through the turns. I'm just more afraid of the high speed curves.
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      09-07-2012, 10:00 PM   #9
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Wow, 170 mph. That power bump makes a big difference. On a stock engined car there won't be the same issues because you won't see those speeds. I can understand wanting more than Normal EDC. What I still think of as "sort of smooth with undulations" you see as "bumps". The best I've seen with stock power is a tick over 140 mph into Schwedenkreuz. I should probably be able to hit close to 150 but you've got to be doing 170 or probably better into there as well. Perhaps that's what you mean by the "first main straight"? I'd love to ride a lap with you.
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      09-12-2012, 09:30 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
IIRC, isn't the first half relatively smooth until the carousel? So maybe he could stay in full stiff. Personally, I'd just stay in one setting. That last thing you need on the 'ring is one more thing to think about.
No first half is bumpy if I recall correctly. The long / fast turns before the carousel is sort of smooth.

I guess the ZCP package (with its adaptive dampers) is really useful at the 'ring.
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      09-12-2012, 10:59 AM   #11
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Stock suspension isn't going to handle the NT01's. You might wanna either change out to better coilovers or downgrade the grip level of your tires to AD08 or below.

Brake pads are important too since the track has quite a bit of stop-and-go areas.

Lastly, if aero is an option, I would do that as well, but suspension/tires and brake pads are more critical.
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      09-12-2012, 12:58 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwjd15 View Post
Stock suspension isn't going to handle the NT01's. You might wanna either change out to better coilovers or downgrade the grip level of your tires to AD08 or below.
I have to disagree with this. I have been running NT01s for a few years now on a stock EDC suspension and it is quite capable of handling the extra grip provided by the tires.

The stock suspension is clearly not the "best" setup for a track dedicated car, however it serves the dual purpose of a DD and weekend track toy quite well.

I did have to add camber plates to optimize tire wear though.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 09-12-2012 at 05:30 PM.
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      09-12-2012, 01:16 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I have to disagree with this. I have been running NT01s for a few years now on a stock EDC suspension and it is quite capable of handling the extra grip provided by the tires.

The stock suspension is clearly not the "best" setup for a track dedicated car, however it serves the dual purpose of a DD and week-en track toy quite well.

I did have to add camber plates to optimize tire wear though.
You have to experience with the suspension that is purposed build to work on Nt01's to know the differences.

Of course, we can run any r-compound on stock suspension for sure, much more grip than street tires anyway. However, that's not the point I was talking.
Also, tire wear is not the point for getting camber plates.
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      09-12-2012, 01:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwjd15 View Post
Stock suspension isn't going to handle the NT01's. You might wanna either change out to better coilovers or downgrade the grip level of your tires to AD08 or below.

Brake pads are important too since the track has quite a bit of stop-and-go areas.

Lastly, if aero is an option, I would do that as well, but suspension/tires and brake pads are more critical.
Actually there is not that much stop and go on the ring. Unless I'm trying to go for a record time, there are only 3 sections that I use the brakes (and still ran under 9... with these slicks I can do the same around 830 at a laxed pace). Although I fully agree with you, brakes are VERY important. I was thinking of doing M5 brakes up front (when my current set comes due).

I did have someone mention to me that with the added grip the stock suspension won't be able to handle it... The guy was some sort of pro racer, and his m3 was track car. He also recommended adding oil catch cans.
Why can't the stock suspension handle the tires? Will it brake something due to high load?


Also, I think I got wrong size tires I have 245/40/18 and 275/35/18.... should I have gone 245/35/18 and 275/30/18? Rears seem ok, but it feels like the fronts are rolling a bit... and I'm over the triangle's.

Once again, this car is my daily driver, cruiser etc... I really want to keep the stock civility of the car, but also be a competitive driver on the track. As of now I have passed a few GT3RS's (not all though, there are still some that will kick my butt). If I can play in the same sand box as GT3RS and give them run for their money, i'll be satisfied. (if I can't have it, then at least I want to beat it).
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      09-12-2012, 04:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwjd15 View Post
You have to experience with the suspension that is purposed build to work on Nt01's to know the differences.

Of course, we can run any r-compound on stock suspension for sure, much more grip than street tires anyway. However, that's not the point I was talking.
Also, tire wear is not the point for getting camber plates.
I did run a fully prepped track car doing time attacks in my younger days, so I am familiar with the benefits of a fully optimized suspension. As I stated, I fully agree with the fact that a coil over suspension will take better advantage of an R-comp tire, or any other tire for that matter.

You stated that the stock suspension could not handle the NT01s and that the OP should "downgrade" his tires, this is the statement that I do not fully agree with.

I also understand that the primary reason of camber adjustment is to optimize the contact patch to optimize grip. However, with the (soft) stock suspension and grippy tires, the contact patch is not optimized when cornering resulting in un-even tire wear. I do not compete anymore, so I can live with the reduced grip, but I am not willing to live with the un-even wear. IMO, the camber plates are a reasonable compromize.

I guess it all depends what your ultimate objective is; running (and winning ) competitive events or simply enjoying lapping your DD on a track .

Last edited by CanAutM3; 09-12-2012 at 05:31 PM.
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      09-12-2012, 05:31 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I did run a fully prepped track car doing time attacks in my younger days, so I am familiar with the benefits of a fully optimized suspension. As I stated, I do agree with the fact that a coil over suspension will take better advantage of an R-comp tire, or any other tire for that matter.

You stated that the stock suspension could not handle the NT01s and that the OP should "downgrade" his tires, this is the statement that I do not fully agree with.

I also understand that the primary reason of camber adjustment is to optimize the contact patch to optimize grip. However, with the (soft) stock suspension and grippy tires, the contact patch is not optimized when cornering resulting in un-even tire wear. I do not compete anymore, so I can live with the reduced grip, but I am not willing to live with the un-even wear. IMO, the camber plates are a reasonable compromize.

I guess it all depends what your ultimate objective is; running (and winning ) competitive events or simply enjoying lapping your DD on a track .
I think we have agreed on many things here. When I said the stock suspension isn't gonna handle the NT01's, I meant the response from the tires are not progress or linear like stock tires.

I think we are talking about same purpose of our cars. My girlfriend DD my M3 everyday (It's the only automatic we have in the family btw). She drives to school, supermarket, dog parks, etc. Then I use the car for track once in awhile over weekends. All I do is put the wing on and put track wheels/tires on then drive to the track and kick a$$. To sum it up, I use the M3 as DD and winning time attack at the same time.
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      09-12-2012, 06:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwjd15 View Post
I think we have agreed on many things here. When I said the stock suspension isn't gonna handle the NT01's, I meant the response from the tires are not progress or linear like stock tires.

I think we are talking about same purpose of our cars. My girlfriend DD my M3 everyday (It's the only automatic we have in the family btw). She drives to school, supermarket, dog parks, etc. Then I use the car for track once in awhile over weekends. All I do is put the wing on and put track wheels/tires on then drive to the track and kick a$$. To sum it up, I use the M3 as DD and winning time attack at the same time.
I see you are really maximizing the dual personality of the M3

to you !
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      11-24-2012, 05:45 AM   #18
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Kotik, I am located in Germany as well and go to the Ring regularly during the summer time, we should make trips. I have been told by instructors to run the the normal setting. Its for the various elevation changes, the EDC also make slight adjustments on its own so being in the Normal setting helps that happy medium deal. I would use my sport setting on airfield driving. I will be running H&R Sports next year and will see the difference, maybe it will be that perfect touch to the already perfect (IMO) suspension. Just my 0.2 cents. If you would like, you can join me on the next drivers course a friend of mine runs at the Bayreuth Airport. Awesome experience, and it really helps with future Ring trips.
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      11-28-2012, 04:08 AM   #19
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get some nice coilovers
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      11-28-2012, 01:35 PM   #20
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Why can't the stock suspension handle the tires?

The stock suspension was calibrated using many factors but one was the grip of the Michelin PS2 or Michelin Sport Cup (special formulated with less grip). Most street tires will still work within the suspensions optimal range. The stickier the tire the more you are starting to operate outside that optimal range. At some point the cornering forces are too great for the spring and shock/damper to control. They start to loose control of the movement, may fall behind in correction, may over heat the fluid and basically start to flail. Plus you start to get unwanted body roll. This can cause you to ride on the bump stops, as the car rolls the negative camber starts to become more and more positive = loose you contact patch. In addition I believe the suspension geometry is less than ideal at full compression.
So an ideal set up with the stock suspension would be a less grippy tire. I would buy front camber plates and run 275 in the front.(AD08 or RE-11)
BTW Coilovers do not necessarily have to be harsh on the street. They can be set up for your individual needs and calibrated to the specific tires you want to run. KW has an ipod adjustable set up.

For reference: I have a 2700lb. E46 M3 with full aero running Yokohama race slicks. It takes 1000lb. front, 900lb. rear springs with MCS triples to control the corning forces that are near 2 Gs. The E92 M3 stock suspension + Yoko slicks wouldn’t even come close to controlling the motion. Its just not designed to do so…..
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      11-28-2012, 02:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeBMW View Post
Why can't the stock suspension handle the tires?

The stock suspension was calibrated using many factors but one was the grip of the Michelin PS2 or Michelin Sport Cup (special formulated with less grip). Most street tires will still work within the suspensions optimal range. The stickier the tire the more you are starting to operate outside that optimal range. At some point the cornering forces are too great for the spring and shock/damper to control. They start to loose control of the movement, may fall behind in correction, may over heat the fluid and basically start to flail. Plus you start to get unwanted body roll. This can cause you to ride on the bump stops, as the car rolls the negative camber starts to become more and more positive = loose you contact patch. In addition I believe the suspension geometry is less than ideal at full compression.
So an ideal set up with the stock suspension would be a less grippy tire. I would buy front camber plates and run 275 in the front.(AD08 or RE-11)
BTW Coilovers do not necessarily have to be harsh on the street. They can be set up for your individual needs and calibrated to the specific tires you want to run. KW has an ipod adjustable set up.

For reference: I have a 2700lb. E46 M3 with full aero running Yokohama race slicks. It takes 1000lb. front, 900lb. rear springs with MCS triples to control the corning forces that are near 2 Gs. The E92 M3 stock suspension + Yoko slicks wouldn’t even come close to controlling the motion. Its just not designed to do so…..
+2000

Stock EDC suspension even has a tougher time controlling PSS vs PS2. The extra grip results in more load at full cornering forces. The car feels more progressive at the limit on PS2 even though it is obviously faster on grippier PSS (or NT-01's like the OP is trying).

But, it takes a driver actually pushing to the limit to really tell that the car isn't breaking away as cleanly due to suspension limitations (spring/damping/camber). If you're not sliding at either end with the stickier rubber, it just feels like you can go around corners faster.
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      12-07-2012, 08:11 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi_traitor View Post
Kotik, I am located in Germany as well and go to the Ring regularly during the summer time, we should make trips. I have been told by instructors to run the the normal setting. Its for the various elevation changes, the EDC also make slight adjustments on its own so being in the Normal setting helps that happy medium deal. I would use my sport setting on airfield driving. I will be running H&R Sports next year and will see the difference, maybe it will be that perfect touch to the already perfect (IMO) suspension. Just my 0.2 cents. If you would like, you can join me on the next drivers course a friend of mine runs at the Bayreuth Airport. Awesome experience, and it really helps with future Ring trips.
sure, hit me up here, or find me on fb ilya volovik
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