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      07-19-2007, 11:06 PM   #1
abe2
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Has BMW positioned the 1 series to take over for what the 3 series/M3 used to be?

I am curious what everyone thinks given what we have seen so far in reviews of the e92 M3. Obviously since the e30 M3 each successive model has grown in size, in cylinders, and from what I gather BMW has shifthed this e92 M3 to be more luxurous, less harsh for those who couldn't otherwise handle it, and more appealing to the general public instead of diehard racing fanatics. I bring up the question of the 1 series filling a void of what the 3 series used to be because BMW just recently launched some info on the 1 series on bmwusa.com. It seems like the are trying to sell the introduction of this car to the American public by comparing it to the 2002, which we all know was the predecessor to our beloved 3 series, and basically invented the sport sedan market. By only introducing the 1 series as a coupe in the US with the 128i and what is sure to be an absolutely ridiculous 135i, it seems like the performance numbers and the driving experience of this car will be something much more like the e30 M3 used to be. Given that the 135i will come with the M-sport package standard makes me think it will be an alternative for people who either (1) can't afford the M3 as it has increased in price and/or (2) prefer a smaller car that is more simple and more driver focused. I don't know if BMW plans to make an "M" version of the 1 series but the 135i by itself really seems like it is what the 3 series/M3 used to be. I was curious what everyone thought and hoped to spark a good conversation.
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      07-19-2007, 11:15 PM   #2
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No...this is nonsense!

The 135i is not even coming with an LSD.... This discussion about the 135i is just ridiculous.

If the 135i beats the M3 around the "ring", which it wont, then maybe any of you what said will have merit. Otherwise...no no no

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      07-19-2007, 11:23 PM   #3
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To add more to this discussion...

The M3 is most the race oriented car in the Bimmer line up despite its weight.

A NA engine that revs to 8400 and produced peak torque for 6000 of that.

Weight saving parts such a forged aluminum drive shaft, cf roof, and forged suspension bits.

And, finally a sub 8:10 ring time!

So who cares that you have to hit a couple buttons to get the suspension, steering, and engine into sport mode. Me, I would like it if the car was constantly in sport mode. Maybe the mag reviewers would too. However, I am sure I am gonna like being able to get a cushy ride when I am taking my girlfriend out....

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      07-19-2007, 11:30 PM   #4
abe2
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That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'm not saying that the 135i will beat the e92 m3 because obviously it doesn't have the power, no LSD and all the other care that has come into making the e92 m3. But the e30 m3 would get destroyed in a race by the e92 m3 as well; what I am talking about is the driving experience, the sensation and feel of the car itself. From all of the press about the e92 m3 it has seemed to me that BMW has repositioned the m3 to be more of a GT car and so I was wondering if the feel of the car has changed from what it once was. If the 135i is being advertised as the 2002 or as something more like the e30 m3, then I would wonder if the driving feel and experience of the car is more like the 3 series USED TO BE. I think to have a true understanding of the issue, we would need comments from people that previously owned/driven e30 and e36 m3s. I never have had the fortune of driving a e30 m3, I've only experienced the e36 and e46, but I would wonder if BMW made an "M" version of the 1 series (with LSD and all the rest) if it would be more like the original m3.
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      07-20-2007, 12:42 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abe2 View Post
[...] If the 135i is being advertised as the 2002 or as something more like the e30 m3, then I would wonder if the driving feel and experience of the car is more like the 3 series USED TO BE.
Cutting directly to the chase, the answer is no. BMW just published the curb weight for the 135i. It's 88 pounds lighter than the 335i coupe, which might sound good at first, but when you look more closely at the numbers, that puts the 135i at 700lbs above the weight of the E30 M3 (2,740lbs). No way it will feel the same, although it'll undoubtedly be faster in the straights.
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      07-20-2007, 12:54 AM   #6
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Quote:
That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'm not saying that the 135i will beat the e92 m3 because obviously it doesn't have the power, no LSD and all the other care that has come into making the e92 m3. But the e30 m3 would get destroyed in a race by the e92 m3 as well; what I am talking about is the driving experience, the sensation and feel of the car itself. From all of the press about the e92 m3 it has seemed to me that BMW has repositioned the m3 to be more of a GT car and so I was wondering if the feel of the car has changed from what it once was. If the 135i is being advertised as the 2002 or as something more like the e30 m3, then I would wonder if the driving feel and experience of the car is more like the 3 series USED TO BE. I think to have a true understanding of the issue, we would need comments from people that previously owned/driven e30 and e36 m3s. I never have had the fortune of driving a e30 m3, I've only experienced the e36 and e46, but I would wonder if BMW made an "M" version of the 1 series (with LSD and all the rest) if it would be more like the original m3.

Keep in mind the 2002 or even the 2002t are not the cars that led to the E30 M3. I think most will agree the first M car that was never really an M car was the CSL. Not only was it a great street GT car but it was also a rather good race car winning many respectable titles in its day. Both the CSL and E30 M3 were built only to meet race league requirements at the time. In essence both were race cars first with street car counterparts. In that regard the 135i is nothing like the E30 M3 and way more like the 2002. In todays world, howevever, BMW doesnt really have a car like the E30 M3. Meaning, a car BMW built to race but built street legal versions for race rules. The closest car in the Bimmer line up to that is and will continue to be the 3ser and M3.


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      07-20-2007, 06:16 AM   #7
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The closest BMW has in recent memory is the 320si with homologated engine.
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      07-20-2007, 06:34 AM   #8
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Yeah, but it only had 173hp. I still wish BMW would have given us a real taste of WTCC with that car, with some weight loss and a 100hp per liter engine at least.
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      07-20-2007, 06:42 AM   #9
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Wow, that is a shame that it only saves 88 lbs over the current 335 coupe. I had heard as much as 300 lbs difference being thrown around early on, which would be significant and would make this a much more interesting topic.
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      07-20-2007, 08:57 AM   #10
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I like the 1er a lot. It surprises me that it is only 88 pounds lighter than the 335. Maybe BMW is using ballast in the 1er so that it does not embarrass its bigger brother!

According to Autoweek, BMW has said there will be no M version of the 1er. A real shame. With the S54 and the M diffy, the car would be hard to beat in terms of overall tossability and the fun factor.
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      07-20-2007, 09:05 AM   #11
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Actually, I've read a few articles about the 1 series that say the new 1 series is poised to reintroduce what the M3 was about when it was initially introduced. Smaller, lightweight, fast, and all about driver involvement.
That being said, I still plan on the M3, but if you liked what the M3 was first about 20 years ago, you may consider the 135 instead of the e92 M.
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      07-20-2007, 09:14 AM   #12
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I saw the video on bmwusa.com too, and it's mainly a marketing theme to emphasize that this is a small car with a powerful engine in the tradition of what made the BMW 3-series such a milestone, nothing more, nothing less.
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      07-20-2007, 09:35 AM   #13
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It looks like it would make a nice little daily driver as long as the size is not a problem.
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      07-20-2007, 10:02 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abe2 View Post
That wasn't the point I was trying to make.
I get what you are trying to say.

In general, yes, the 1 series will take the spot of the 3 series, since it is now the entry level BMW. The entry level roll has traditionally been filled by the 3 series, but that car is growing large enough now that a smaller car can be slotted in below it.

In the future - probably with the next generation 1 series I would imagine - there will be sedan and wagon versions added, and also, yes, an M model. The 3 series will continue to grow in size and its sales will begin to shrink while the sales of the 1 series will eventually catch up to it and eclipse it. Future M3s will likely become more GT like, and closer to the current M5 and M6 in function. The 5 series of course will also grow as well. It is feasible that at some point the 5 will take over the spot of the 7 and the 7 will be retired or more likely replaced by an entry level Rolls Royce. None of this will happen soon of course. It could take 10-20 years.

With regard to the 1 series feeling more like a classic E30, E36 or even E46 - I don't think it will have much in common with those cars other than its size. Modern cars are expected to have more refinement, which means you won't ever have the pure drivers car feel except maybe for M and CSL models. And because of safety equipment the weight will never be as low as it was for the older BMWs either. Not that any of this should be lamented too strongly since lets face it - these cars will whip up on their past counterparts in raw performance (as you pointed out). They may not feel the same, no, but progress always requires some compromise. I suppose if someone really misses the classic BMW feel, then the best car for them is probably an actual classic BMW.
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      07-20-2007, 10:47 AM   #15
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No way, the 1 series would never take over the M division, its not like the M is lacking anything. The 1 series would make a great fun little DD.
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      07-20-2007, 04:25 PM   #16
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Interesting to see Ferrari shed 100kg from the new Ferrari F430 Scuderia, bringing it down to 1250kg. Hopefully BMW can shed similar from the CSL and then we'd have something very close to the E30 M3 for focus, if not overall weight, of course.
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      07-21-2007, 08:57 AM   #17
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Man, the 135 sounds like such a rocket. I've spoken to my local BMW dealer to set up a testdrive. Unfortunately, they only have a 123d on order, but they can bring in a 135 just for testing if there will be a few people interested. So, maybe early November.
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      07-21-2007, 10:32 AM   #18
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If this were ever true it would be some very very strange marketing scheme.
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      07-21-2007, 12:30 PM   #19
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The 1 series pricing is going to matter. But the 135i will have 300 hp and 300 pounds of torque. It if is pretty light, it will be a monster. But the pricing will determine who buys it and what niche it is being marketed at. Regardless it could be a great car. I see your point of it filling the void that the old M3s left behind. Maybe BMW thinks there is a two-tier sports oriented market out there: people who can afford a sports sedan sedan in the new M3 versus those who would love an M3 but aren't there yet money wise. Invariably then, the i35 will be aimed at younger people. Like someone said in another thread who lives in L.A., the i35 will mean you couldn't afford the M3. Whereas the M3 is iconic enough and pricey enoguh that people won't say you can't afford the M5/6 so you had to buy the M3. Granted, L.A. is not the world but we buy most M cars and sportscars so our opinions and snobbery will matter.
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      07-21-2007, 12:43 PM   #20
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I'm not so sure of all this talk about the 135 replacing what the M3 USED to be. Alot of people's concern on this board seems to be about how much the new M3 will weigh. Well, the 135 weighs 3440lbs, nothing like what an M3 USED to be.
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      07-21-2007, 12:47 PM   #21
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Quote:
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I'm not so sure of all this talk about the 135 replacing what the M3 USED to be. Alot of people's concern on this board seems to be about how much the new M3 will weigh. Well, the 135 weighs 3440lbs, nothing like what an M3 USED to be.

If that's its weight, then forget it. What a pig.
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      07-21-2007, 01:42 PM   #22
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I found something that makes me think BMW is not trying to recapture the essence of the e30 or the 2002 in the 1 series:

http://news.windingroad.com/countrie...-new-1-series/

Given that the weight of the 1 series will be about 3440 lbs, and the e30 M3 was a little over 2700, I would have to agree that it won't feel like the old M3. More disheartening for me is the fact that according to Winding Road BMW is NOT going to be focusing on the 6-speed manual for the 135i, but introducing the 1 series with a new 6-speed automatic tranny for the US. I don't think automatic and old M3 really mix.
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