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      08-21-2012, 07:07 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
On the one hand, I genuinely appreciate this informational nugget, as my dated knowledge would've said five or six microns. On the other hand, sub-micron tolerances in this area may well take another 25 years...

Be that as it may, however, even three microns is a far cry from your sub-micron comment, and my original note was about cylinder to cylinder and piston to piston variation - not crankshafts.
I said "microns or smaller" and that is absolutely correct. I never specifically stated "sub-micon" but I can see how one can interpret what I wrote to mean that.

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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
On the contrary. It would in fact be difficult (read: expensive). You would have to measure each piston to essentially exactitude, then store it in one of hundreds of buckets, then measure each cylinder to exactitude, then go and retrieve an appropriate piston... Expensive.
Again I doubt that anyone is doing this particular type of matching today by machine. However, engine parts are generally 100% inspected already, it is done by robots and is automated during machining. It would not take much more effort for some level of parts bin-ing and matching. If there was a compelling reason to do so someone obviously will do it. It certainly would not take 100's of bin sizes either. If there was a benefit to be had you could probably realize a good portion of the benefit with 10 times fewer bins.

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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I am going to take this as just another of your thoughtless comments, as opposed to a deliberate insult.
It is neither, take it how you like.

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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
In point of fact our disagreement is based on the fact that I know it's NOT all about the money.

Mercedes has built those 6.2 liter engines by the thousands, since they've put that engine into just about everything except the Smart Car. There was clearly enough volume there to justify the automated tooling (a good deal more volume than exists with the S65), yet they went with hand assembly - at least as far as fitting pistons goes.

I believe they did this to get better piston to cylinder wall tolerances, with whatever benefit that provides them.
Are you absolutely positive this part of the process is entirely done by hand for the entire production volume of this engine? Can you prove that or do you have any solid evidence of it at all. Other than a silly signature on the engine...

What are these benefits exactly? One reason (among many) we have rings is for less sensitivity to piston/cylinder fit.

Come on get with the program. You think that in regards to piston/bore fit that hand measurements, hand bin-ing and hand installation is less expensive in these volumes than doing so by machine? That just doesn't make sense.

There are a few possibilities here from my perspective, again somewhat speculative, since I have no first hand/second hand knowledge of this engine assembly process. In most automotive assembly processes, body, engine or otherwise there are sub-processes that can be done less expensively by hand as opposed to by machine. Thus some processes for this engine are done by machine, some by hand. MB then uses this as a marketing opportunity to appeal to the outdated notion that by hand is somehow high-end, magical or better.

I highly doubt that the entire volume production of this MB engine has hand inspected, hand sorted and hand installed pistons purely to improve the quality or performance of the engine. In fact, even without direct knowledge, I would be willing to bet this is not the case. Money drives just about everything and it will be driving this as well.

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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
PS - By the way, your childlike faith in the M Group's ability to provide sub-micron tolerances in the S65 is touching - but I'll need some proof, please.
Ease up on the insults, especially when they are 100% without basis. I have no evidence, do not believe and did not state that BMW M is doing anything appreciably any different than MB here. I also never said BMW M is doing anything sub-micron. GET YOUR FACTS and READING ABILITY SORTED OUT. Perhaps the senility of your old age is affecting your reading comprehension here? What I said is the BMW M (and BMW in general) has many single digit micron tolerances and this follows simply because the S52 already has some and improvements have been made since then.
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      08-21-2012, 08:27 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I said "microns or smaller" and that is absolutely correct. I never specifically stated "sub-micon" but I can see how one can interpret what I wrote to mean that.



Again I doubt that anyone is doing this particular type of matching today by machine. However, engine parts are generally 100% inspected already, it is done by robots and is automated during machining. It would not take much more effort for some level of parts bin-ing and matching. If there was a compelling reason to do so someone obviously will do it. It certainly would not take 100's of bin sizes either. If there was a benefit to be had you could probably realize a good portion of the benefit with 10 times fewer bins.



It is neither, take it how you like.



Are you absolutely positive this part of the process is entirely done by hand for the entire production volume of this engine? Can you prove that or do you have any solid evidence of it at all. Other than a silly signature on the engine...

What are these benefits exactly? One reason (among many) we have rings is for less sensitivity to piston/cylinder fit.

Come on get with the program. You think that in regards to piston/bore fit that hand measurements, hand bin-ing and hand installation is less expensive in these volumes than doing so by machine? That just doesn't make sense.

There are a few possibilities here from my perspective, again somewhat speculative, since I have no first hand/second hand knowledge of this engine assembly process. In most automotive assembly processes, body, engine or otherwise there are sub-processes that can be done less expensively by hand as opposed to by machine. Thus some processes for this engine are done by machine, some by hand. MB then uses this as a marketing opportunity to appeal to the outdated notion that by hand is somehow high-end, magical or better.

I highly doubt that the entire volume production of this MB engine has hand inspected, hand sorted and hand installed pistons purely to improve the quality or performance of the engine. In fact, even without direct knowledge, I would be willing to bet this is not the case. Money drives just about everything and it will be driving this as well.



Ease up on the insults, especially when they are 100% without basis. I have no evidence, do not believe and did not state that BMW M is doing anything appreciably any different than MB here. I also never said BMW M is doing anything sub-micron. GET YOUR FACTS and READING ABILITY SORTED OUT. Perhaps the senility of your old age is affecting your reading comprehension here? What I said is the BMW M (and BMW in general) has many single digit micron tolerances and this follows simply because the S52 already has some and improvements have been made since then.
Move on! Our first year engineering students use tolerances of 0.01 microns. A hand built engine will meet the specifications a lot better than a machine built one. Don't write pages, when the answer is a sentence.
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      08-21-2012, 10:54 PM   #69
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Folks, a modern industrial process for tolerance matching would never use hundreds of bins, that is so last millennium.

In modern manufacturing, this type of problem is typically solved by measuring part A size (piston or piston ring in our case) then auto-barcoding the tolerance on it, then storing it in a known location in an automated shelving/delivery system.

Then come assembly time, part B (the cylinder bores in our case) can again be measured in real time, then a specific piston or ring can be selected for each bore from the pool of available parts.

This no binning system would have the capability to match pretty much any tolerance given a large supply of pistons or rings, which BTW is exactly the process of matching parts that an engine builder does.

It's a simple workflow which can be implemented with a few sensors and an automated shelving/warehousing system. Now I'm not saying this is what BMW is doing because I am not privvy to their secrets, but if it would provide such great benefits then they could easily implement something like this to offer tolerance matching that can be easily on par with, if not better, than the corresponding human process.



My impression is that any potential benefits are overstated. I mean, are we talking about the last 10%, 1% or less? Nobody can tell...
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      08-21-2012, 11:33 PM   #70
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Anything hand built is good
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      08-21-2012, 11:56 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerj View Post
Move on! Our first year engineering students use tolerances of 0.01 microns. A hand built engine will meet the specifications a lot better than a machine built one. Don't write pages, when the answer is a sentence.
Not even sure this is worth addressing. You can't be serious about 0.01 microns. That is about 4x10^-7 inches! You've lost quite a bit of credibility with that statement. What part of the previous discussion about single digit, i.e. a couple of microns did you miss? This is the best that the best can do today with top of the line precision machinery. This stuff will be orders of magnitude more accurate than what any first year engineering students at ANY school will have access to.

It's sure is easy to type BS with no supporting evidence rather than explain your argument...
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      08-22-2012, 02:08 AM   #72
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Not even sure this is worth addressing. You can't be serious about 0.01 microns. That is about 4x10^-7 inches! You've lost quite a bit of credibility with that statement. What part of the previous discussion about single digit, i.e. a couple of microns did you miss? This is the best that the best can do today with top of the line precision machinery. This stuff will be orders of magnitude more accurate than what any first year engineering students at ANY school will have access to.

It's sure is easy to type BS with no supporting evidence rather than explain your argument...
I won't correct my post. Sorry, I meant 0.01 mm. I would definitely lose credibility with my previous statement. That being said, I am not sure if using hand assembly somewhere in the process would result in a better engine, but would result in a cooler one for sure!
On another side note: http://www.worldcarfans.com/11208164...-mercedes-benz

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      08-22-2012, 02:56 AM   #73
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Personally, i would trust a machine built part more than a hand made one unless i am sure that particular craftsman is of top notch credential. Human is often the weak link when it comes to consistency.
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      08-22-2012, 04:39 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I said "microns or smaller" and that is absolutely correct. I never specifically stated "sub-micon" but I can see how one can interpret what I wrote to mean that.
First of all, my initial participation in this string was in regard to how hand fitting of pistons could be of benefit, even in an automated world. That's all. My subsequent participation in this string was also in that specific area, except where I responded to your 3-micron crank journal quote - which was off (my) narrow topic.

Second, you had your chance to back off your micron or smaller position back in note 64. When I mentioned that you were dreaming, you said: "Sorry, wrong." Too late to weasel out now.

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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
...Are you absolutely positive this part of the process is entirely done by hand for the entire production volume of this engine? Can you prove that or do you have any solid evidence of it at all. Other than a silly signature on the engine...
I am absolutely not positive, meaning I have no direct knowledge of this. When the engine was introduced, I read a number of reports in regard to this being the first AMG-only engine, and that it was hand assembled. Since then, I haven't read anything about this version or that version being machine assembled, and I assume there would've been something if that indeed had become the case. Again, no personal knowledge of this, but that's the way to bet, I think.

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What are these benefits exactly? One reason (among many) we have rings is for less sensitivity to piston/cylinder fit.
As I've already mentioned, benefits include more power, a smoother engine and perhaps slightly better mileage. To this I would add the possibility of better endurance under duress. Anecdotally, I remember when the Corvettes and Porsches were going at it hammer and tongs in "showroom stock" racing back in the eighties in the U.S. You weren't allowed to do any hand machining to the engine, so the Vette guys would get a bunch of pistons and hand fit them to individual cylinders. This in an effort to get a bit more power (they were way down on that) and better endurance. Generally speaking, keeping things on the loose side of the spec meant more power.

I'd bet the Porsche guys were testing blow-off valve after blow-off valve as well, looking for the ones that would maintain the highest permissable boost within spec.

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Come on get with the program. You think that in regards to piston/bore fit that hand measurements, hand bin-ing and hand installation is less expensive in these volumes than doing so by machine? That just doesn't make sense.
As I've already mentioned in this string, hand assembly and big volumes don't work from a cost perspective.

To repeat myself, the other reason for hand assembly is performance. As a for instance, you can bet that every 911, every M3, every 458 and anything else competing in the ALMS has a lovingly hand built engine.

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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
There are a few possibilities here from my perspective, again somewhat speculative, since I have no first hand/second hand knowledge of this engine assembly process. In most automotive assembly processes, body, engine or otherwise there are sub-processes that can be done less expensively by hand as opposed to by machine. Thus some processes for this engine are done by machine, some by hand. MB then uses this as a marketing opportunity to appeal to the outdated notion that by hand is somehow high-end, magical or better.
You and I disagree that hand assembly is an outdated notion.

As to Mercedes dishonesty, you have no direct knowledge of that, and of course you don't believe that their 6.2 liter engine weighs the stated 436 pounds, either. So we know that you have something of an attitude about MB, therefore dropping your credibility in regard to MB issues down to near zero.

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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I highly doubt that the entire volume production of this MB engine has hand inspected, hand sorted and hand installed pistons purely to improve the quality or performance of the engine. In fact, even without direct knowledge, I would be willing to bet this is not the case. Money drives just about everything and it will be driving this as well.
We'll agree to disagree about money driving this entirely. More on that in a PS, below.

I personally feel that improved quality and performance is the chief reason for them hand assembling the 6.2, but "improved quality and performance" is a statement that needs filling out, or a better definition, if you will.

Where are they starting from? This is AMG's first engine, after all, and what if they've got a bit of a glitch somewhere, sufficient to necessitate hand assembly, or at least to make that the preferred method?


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Ease up on the insults, especially when they are 100% without basis. I have no evidence, do not believe and did not state that BMW M is doing anything appreciably any different than MB here. I also never said BMW M is doing anything sub-micron. GET YOUR FACTS and READING ABILITY SORTED OUT. Perhaps the senility of your old age is affecting your reading comprehension here? What I said is the BMW M (and BMW in general) has many single digit micron tolerances and this follows simply because the S52 already has some and improvements have been made since then.
Gee, you're cute when you're angry.

As mentioned, you had the ability to back off sub-micron in note 64, and didn't. Don't try to weasel out now.

Finally, I've kept my hand-built comments narrowed to custom fitting of pistons, and expect that normal folks reading this string will easily understand those comments. Particularly the OP.

Bruce

PS - In regard to Chevrolet, they hand assemble Corvette engines fitted to the Grand Sport stick cars, all Z06s and all ZR-1s. A year or so back, I asked a Corvette engineer (during the Corvettes at Carlisle massive show) about why they did this. He said that they got a bit of power out of hand assembly, but mostly they did it because from their perspective, these particular models were going to get beaten like a red headed step child, and would last better under those conditions.

I mention this because it's another reason why manufacturers may do this, and this subject is not quite as cut and dry as you seem to think.

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      08-22-2012, 10:38 PM   #75
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I am going to venture out and say you have never built a motor on your own. Between constantly checking tolerances and every bolt and clearances, it is absolutely better when one person does it. Ive built a few motors myself for hot rods and it is definitely a love affair for me.

You have obviously forgot about German brands and they're pride. It might be marketing, but its also a sense of pride to say something is handmade. When was the last time you hand built anything and signed your name on it with pride.
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      08-24-2012, 12:46 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
First of all, my initial participation in this string was in regard to how hand fitting of pistons could be of benefit, even in an automated world. That's all. My subsequent participation in this string was also in that specific area, except where I responded to your 3-micron crank journal quote - which was off (my) narrow topic.
OK you have some anecdotal evidence that some form of hand fitting pistons might offer some benefits. What must be emphasized about this is that this is one particular case of hand fitting one component in contrast with a comparison to one particular process for machine fitting them. It says nothing about every form of hand fitting vs. a reasonable machine approach attempting to meet the same goals. I.e. there is no one singular hand fitting approach as there is no one singular machine approach. There are a plethora of variables, variations and options.

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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Second, you had your chance to back off your micron or smaller position back in note 64. When I mentioned that you were dreaming, you said: "Sorry, wrong." Too late to weasel out now.
There is zero attempt to weasel out of anything. You clearly need a logic 101 refresher to elucidate the difference between "AND" and "OR". My original statement was 100% correct and factual, no if's and's or but's.

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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I am absolutely not positive, meaning I have no direct knowledge of this. When the engine was introduced, I read a number of reports in regard to this being the first AMG-only engine, and that it was hand assembled. Since then, I haven't read anything about this version or that version being machine assembled, and I assume there would've been something if that indeed had become the case. Again, no personal knowledge of this, but that's the way to bet, I think.
Again how do you possibly reconcile this with the plethora of cars using this engine, those known production volumes (quite high) and then either the raw feasibility or the economics of hand assembly? It just does not add up. It doesn't pass the simple litmus test of what is reasonable.

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.... Generally speaking, keeping things on the loose side of the spec meant more power.
And one off racing engines have what exactly to do with the needs, requirements, scale or economics of high volume passenger vehicle engine production?

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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
As I've already mentioned in this string, hand assembly and big volumes don't work from a cost perspective.
You are taking the words right out of my mouth. This is also contradictory to your basic belief about what MB is doing with this engine.

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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
To repeat myself, the other reason for hand assembly is performance. As a for instance, you can bet that every 911, every M3, every 458 and anything else competing in the ALMS has a lovingly hand built engine.
And the reason is as much or more driven by economics than performance. Did you watch the video I posted prior? Do you think a race team can afford something like that? This is such an absolutely simple observation and common sense. VOLUME DICTATES ASSEMBLY TECHNIQUE.

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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
You and I disagree that hand assembly is an outdated notion.
See above. It all comes down to volume. Hand assembly is absolutely romanticized but it is never outdated if it provides the lowest cost. Again, if not clear a basically hyper-capitalism perspective...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
As to Mercedes dishonesty, you have no direct knowledge of that, and of course you don't believe that their 6.2 liter engine weighs the stated 436 pounds, either. So we know that you have something of an attitude about MB, therefore dropping your credibility in regard to MB issues down to near zero.
A pretty feeble attempt Bruce, really. All I believe about engine weights (or the weight of any other "thing" you want to understand) is that when they are made of nearly identical materials, with nearly identical components, in fundamentally identical configurations, that the larger of two items will be the heavier item. If the opposite turns out to be the case then most likely there is a different definition of what a complete item is comprised of. Does such common sense escape you? Now just to be clear I never said impossible, just very unlikely. You are probably one in a billion here who believes that marketing BS directly from the manufacturer is solidly and definitively more reliable than basic logic. It's really time for some more healthy skepticism from you. I know is is not beyond you.

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We'll agree to disagree about money driving this entirely. More on that in a PS, below.
Praise the lord, we are back on track. Wait, wait, what is it performance or money, what is the driver. Please make up your mind.

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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I personally feel that improved quality and performance is the chief reason for them hand assembling the 6.2, but "improved quality and performance" is a statement that needs filling out, or a better definition, if you will.
Money, performance, money, performance, money, performance.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
PS - In regard to Chevrolet, they hand assemble Corvette engines fitted to the Grand Sport stick cars, all Z06s and all ZR-1s. A year or so back, I asked a Corvette engineer (during the Corvettes at Carlisle massive show) about why they did this. He said that they got a bit of power out of hand assembly, but mostly they did it because from their perspective, these particular models were going to get beaten like a red headed step child, and would last better under those conditions.

I mention this because it's another reason why manufacturers may do this, and this subject is not quite as cut and dry as you seem to think.
Yes, we all know that manufacturers all offer 20 year, 200k mile drivetrain warranties.... They don't care that much about an overall extremely reliable subsystem (main engine assembly) in the face of many dozens of drastically less reliable parts and components.

Believe what you want, it is a lot of traditional hod-rodder/race team type of mentality. For PRODUCTION vehicles the manufacturing is all about the volume, capacity, assembly time and last but still greatest COST.
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      08-24-2012, 12:58 AM   #77
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I am going to venture out and say you have never built a motor on your own. Between constantly checking tolerances and every bolt and clearances, it is absolutely better when one person does it. Ive built a few motors myself for hot rods and it is definitely a love affair for me.

You have obviously forgot about German brands and they're pride. It might be marketing, but its also a sense of pride to say something is handmade. When was the last time you hand built anything and signed your name on it with pride.
Seems pretty obvious you are speaking to me so I'll reply.

I have built motors by hand, myself but only very simple single cylinder ones contrasted with any modern multiple cylinder automobile engine.

Human error is a huge factor in any process and that is why industrial, manufacturing and reliability engineers prefer to remove them from the process. Your point only helps mine, it does not provide an argument against it.

I understand German manufacturing pride just as well as American manufacturing pride, thank you very much. I know dozens of engineers from both countries and I am a (recovering) Mechanical Engineer myself. I've done design, manufacturing engineering, tolerance studies, test engineering, test and assembly tooling design, assembly automation, fatigue/static/dynamic testing, thermal testing, physics based product simulation, product data management and on and on. Perhaps ask others involved in the discussion their relevant professional experience... Although I don't do any of that professionally any longer I continue to build a great deal of things with my hands. I don't sign my name on them but you can be assured there is an enormous degree of pride and perfection in the things I build, it's simply my nature.

Any other questions?
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      08-24-2012, 07:40 AM   #78
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This thread is like the discovery channel on crack - f@cking love it!

I love this shit! I'm no engineer or anything like that (ex pit trader) but this is some interesting shit. Keep going guys, don't stop now
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      08-24-2012, 09:51 AM   #79
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I have to agree with Bruce on some of his statements. As someone who works with engines for a living I can tell you that during a rebuild or after a block or crankshaft comes back from machining you measure, measure, measure and then measure again.

By simply taking parts off of the shelf and putting them together without measuring, many times can result in failure since the tolerances are not within stated dimensions. I don't know if you guys remember the infamous "GM Piston Slap" fiasco a few years back. That issue started when they stopped the hand fitting of pistons in their blocks and relied on the tolerances of the pistons and bores being within stated dimensions.

I do agree that modern automated machining can make extremely tight tolerances and is very good, but, if you get out your feeler gauges, vernier, micrometer, or bore gauges you can actually show the areas where the measurements are barely within tolerance. A good engine has all of its measurements evenly within tolerance and not all over the place with some on the high side and some on the low side of spec.

I can guarantee you that there is some human involvement when building any good high performance engine. Even if each and every engine is not hand assembled, some of the parts or even a complete engine will be pulled from the assembly line every so often and measured to verify that all of the dimensions are indeed within spec and as a form of QC.

One final thing, even the S65 which BMW does not claim is hand assembled has three sizes for main bearings. If you look at parts list the bearings have colours assigned to them. This is due to the main bearing bore variance and the need to keep the oil clearance proper. Now I don't know if they hand measure and then select the bearings or if they have a machine measure but either way this shows that even high tech machining equipment can have some variance that has to be made up for with correctly sized bearing shells.

As for pistons, the S65 only shows one piston size. Since Mahle makes the S65's pistons and they are known as one of the best piston manufacturers in the world, they probably verify dimensions before shipping them, and BMW may very well check all of the bores of the blocks after machining and only build engines out of the ones that meet their specs.

The moral of this post is that having a skilled craftsman measuring and building you an engine is definitely worth it, as good as machines are, many times we have had to send back brand new parts that were supposed to be within spec but were indeed not even close. If you work with this stuff all the time you realize that machines, while as amazing as they are, do not always build the perfect parts. Finally, Even with automated assembly there is always a programmer or machine operator that has to be added into the equation too!

P.S.: Swamp, their is indeed evidence that hand fitting of pistons does offer benefit and it is not merely anecdotal, it is a fact and has been proven. While it may not always be measurable in terms of power, it will definitely be measurable in longevity. Excessive piston to bore clearance will result in piston slap and piston to bore clearance that is too tight will result in scuffing and excessive wear. Over time piston clearance that is too tight or too loose will make the bores wear out of round which can eventually lead to oil burning and/or loss of power. Basically if you want an engine to run quiet, make power and last, you need to ensure all of your measurements are nicely within spec. ( I know you know this but I thought I would add my $0.02)
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Last edited by BMRLVR; 08-24-2012 at 10:11 AM.
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      08-24-2012, 11:14 AM   #80
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I don't care who you are. As great as our 4.0 engine is, that 6.2 is epic
AMEN.
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      08-24-2012, 11:26 AM   #81
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I don't buy that BS. I remember the SVT Cobra Mustangs used to do that (they might still for all I know).

it is still a great motor though. totally different philosophy on how to make power than the M3's S65, but fun and impressive in its own way.
My dad's 2004 Terminator Cobra has two signature stamps on the motor.
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      08-24-2012, 11:41 AM   #82
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for a nice thread.
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      08-24-2012, 12:39 PM   #83
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OK you have some anecdotal evidence that some form of hand fitting pistons might offer some benefits. What must be emphasized about this is that this is one particular case of hand fitting one component in contrast with a comparison to one particular process for machine fitting them. It says nothing about every form of hand fitting vs. a reasonable machine approach attempting to meet the same goals. I.e. there is no one singular hand fitting approach as there is no one singular machine approach. There are a plethora of variables, variations and options.
You can emphasize whatever you like. Just don't take my narrowly drawn example of how hand fitting of pistons can be of benefit and somehow broaden that to the point of my somehow believing that hand fitting of everything is superior to automation. Sheesh.

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There is zero attempt to weasel out of anything. You clearly need a logic 101 refresher to elucidate the difference between "AND" and "OR". My original statement was 100% correct and factual, no if's and's or but's.
Again, you had your chance to back off that position, and didn't. Too late.

By the way, it's ifs ands or buts. These items are not possessive.

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Again how do you possibly reconcile this with the plethora of cars using this engine, those known production volumes (quite high) and then either the raw feasibility or the economics of hand assembly? It just does not add up. It doesn't pass the simple litmus test of what is reasonable.
As if you had any idea of Mercedes costs for anything, unit by unit or over time.

Listen, let me concoct a Mercedes meeting back in, say, 2010. The bean counters are getting concerned because the 6.2 liter V8 is selling so well that they're leaving money on the table with each one by not automating.

Then the CFO says that within two years they'll begin ramping down 6.2 liter volume to a projected nnnnn units in 2012, reduced to nnnnn units in 2013, and phasing out totally by 20mumble-whatever. If that's the case, then would tooling up for volume production in this fiscal year of our Lord make sense?

Let's see, mumble-mumble, carry the two, mumble-mumble.

Nope! It's close, but we should carry on.

OK, I made that up, but what I'm trying to convey is that things are not as simplistic as you seem to (routinely) think.

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And one off racing engines have what exactly to do with the needs, requirements, scale or economics of high volume passenger vehicle engine production?
Nothing. Just thought I'd convey that data point.

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You are taking the words right out of my mouth.
Nonsense. I'm on record with this in note 28. You didn't fire up until a good while later.

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This is also contradictory to your basic belief about what MB is doing with this engine.
Again nonsense. Neither you nor I nor anyone else in this string knows where the break points are, for this engine or for any other engine from anyone.


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And the reason is as much or more driven by economics than performance. Did you watch the video I posted prior? Do you think a race team can afford something like that? This is such an absolutely simple observation and common sense. VOLUME DICTATES ASSEMBLY TECHNIQUE.
I personally am in complete agreement with your first sentence, and have said so starting with note 28. I am of course in disagreement with your last sentence (partiularly in upper case format), as are you, judging by your first sentence. There's more, though. A manufacturer may think there's enough extra marketing pizazz generated by the "Hand Built!" words to justify the additional expense over a certain number of projected units. Mercedes, for example?

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A pretty feeble attempt Bruce, really. All I believe about engine weights (or the weight of any other "thing" you want to understand) is that when they are made of nearly identical materials, with nearly identical components, in fundamentally identical configurations, that the larger of two items will be the heavier item. If the opposite turns out to be the case then most likely there is a different definition of what a complete item is comprised of. Does such common sense escape you? Now just to be clear I never said impossible, just very unlikely. You are probably one in a billion here who believes that marketing BS directly from the manufacturer is solidly and definitively more reliable than basic logic. It's really time for some more healthy skepticism from you. I know is is not beyond you.
I admit that I'm that one-in-a-billion person who might give more credibility to a major manufacturer than I give to, say, you.

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Praise the lord, we are back on track. Wait, wait, what is it performance or money, what is the driver. Please make up your mind.

Money, performance, money, performance, money, performance.....
Are you off your meds? Starting back in note 28, I mentioned money and performance, in that order. Now I've got to make up my mind, because it can't be both?

Sheesh.

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Yes, we all know that manufacturers all offer 20 year, 200k mile drivetrain warranties.... They don't care that much about an overall extremely reliable subsystem (main engine assembly) in the face of many dozens of drastically less reliable parts and components.

Believe what you want, it is a lot of traditional hod-rodder/race team type of mentality. For PRODUCTION vehicles the manufacturing is all about the volume, capacity, assembly time and last but still greatest COST.
Again, my position started with and stays with the fact that hand fitting of pistons may be of benefit. As volumes go up, that wouldn't change the benefit, but costs may get to the point of being unsupportable. The breakover point will depend on a number of things, varying by manufacturer and engine. Hot rodder/race team mentality has nothing to do with it.

Finally, an additional note on Chevrolet. The engineer and I didn't speak about this, but I'm pretty damned sure that the costs to run the Grand Sport stick engines through the hand build line were much less than they would've been had that line not been already justified to service the limited production Z06 and ZR-1 engines.

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 08-24-2012 at 01:29 PM. Reason: Spelling
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      08-24-2012, 12:46 PM   #84
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Did you ask him how come it takes 6.2 litres to do what BMW can do in 4.0?
Probably not, but I am sure he would say that the 443lb-feet of torque and the sound the C63 produces quickly makes him forget about an under-torqued 4 litre motor wheezing away at 8K rpm to pull 3,600lbs.

Different philosophies. AMG was racing cars and Mercedes winning formula one championships before BMW knew what a sports car was.



They are both great motors. Get over it.
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      08-24-2012, 12:53 PM   #85
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Real question: how many of you actually read these massive wall of text replies?
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      08-24-2012, 01:09 PM   #86
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Real question: how many of you actually read these massive wall of text replies?
I replied before reading (obviously) but didn't care. I would have made my point regardless.
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      08-24-2012, 01:10 PM   #87
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Real question: how many of you actually read these massive wall of text replies?
I love reading these, all of these.
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      08-24-2012, 01:13 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Did you ask him how come it takes 6.2 litres to do what BMW can do in 4.0?
Probably not, but I am sure he would say that the 443lb-feet of torque and the sound the C63 produces quickly makes him forget about an under-torqued 4 litre motor wheezing away at 8K rpm to pull 3,600lbs.

Different philosophies. AMG was racing cars and Mercedes winning formula one championships before BMW knew what a sports car was.



They are both great motors. Get over it.
I wouldn't call the s65 "wheezing" at 8k RPM, that's rather demeaning and argumentative at best. My tiny S65 has no problem passing just about anything on the track (including the mighty AMG) and I've never heard it gasp for air... Now let's get back to the classroom :
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