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      08-11-2012, 11:14 AM   #1
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Republican Obstructionism

It has been asserted time and time again that during President Obama's first term, GOP leadership was more likely to obstruct anything his office tried to do rather than work with them on governing this country. Accusations of record filibustering by the republicans in the legislative branch, secret holds, the debt-limit chaos, etc. Yet when confronted with this notion, it is often passed off as a figment of imagination.

There is a new book out that professes that the number one priority of the republicans in the senate was to have no cooperation with the Obama Administration. Their reasoning was this would make the Obama presidency deemed a failure, and it would give them better chances of election in 2012. Basically putting their party well before the needs of this country. Vice President Biden has come out saying this is the case, as have a number of GOP senators. So unless all of these folks are lying, it's possible that this was actually the policy of the republican party.

Here is a serious question to all of you republicans here on this sub-forum. How do you feel about the Republican Party actively taking a position of party before country?

Biden: McConnell decided to withhold all cooperation even before we took office

If Obama Was For It, We Had To Be Against It
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      08-11-2012, 12:06 PM   #2
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How do I feel about republicans obstructing, opposing, delaying, fighting against nobama's radical vision and agenda for America? Just fine thanks, too bad they weren't more successful.
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      08-11-2012, 12:19 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xbook View Post
Basically putting their party well before the needs of this country.
Really? As if both parties don't do that to each other? Not defending the GOP on this, but it doesn't really seem that either side is really batting for the people they represent or the well being of the country.
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      08-11-2012, 01:26 PM   #4
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The presidency is a 4 year engagement. The Republicans have only been in charge of 1/2 of 1/3 of the government for just 2 of those years.

Obama had more than ample opportunity to not only set but advance his agenda during that timeframe with Stimulus, the Affordable Care Act, Financial Reform, Lily Ledbetter Act, and others..


Outside of that - what are the Repubs "obstructing" since taking office:
  • Obama's budget with got zero votes in the Senate (twice)
  • Obama's Jobs bill that hasn't left committee more due to blue dogs not wanting to vote to raise taxes.
  • The Dream act which Obama instituted portions thru executive order
  • Net Netruality, which has legitimate concerns on both sides
  • Simpson-Bowles recommendation - which Repubs did stop from leaving committee but Obama has disowned anyway (wasn't in his budget).

What has passed:
  • The Farm bill which has passed with bi-partisan support
  • Transportation Bill - which passed
  • Export-Import Bank Reauth - which conservatives abhor but passed anyway

So when all is said and done - he got everything he wanted in the first two years - hasn't been able to get important factions of his own party and repubs convinced on major legislation the last two years - and we still have a stagnant economy, systemic unemployment, mediocre GDP growth and an large year-over-year deficits.

To paint the current problems solely on Repubs is deflection at best or disingenuous at worst. The election will be a referendum on the last four years and the ppl will decide where the blame will be assigned.
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      08-13-2012, 02:43 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgrovr View Post
The presidency is a 4 year engagement. The Republicans have only been in charge of 1/2 of 1/3 of the government for just 2 of those years.

Obama had more than ample opportunity to not only set but advance his agenda during that timeframe with Stimulus, the Affordable Care Act, Financial Reform, Lily Ledbetter Act, and others..


Outside of that - what are the Repubs "obstructing" since taking office:
  • Obama's budget with got zero votes in the Senate (twice)
  • Obama's Jobs bill that hasn't left committee more due to blue dogs not wanting to vote to raise taxes.
  • The Dream act which Obama instituted portions thru executive order
  • Net Netruality, which has legitimate concerns on both sides
  • Simpson-Bowles recommendation - which Repubs did stop from leaving committee but Obama has disowned anyway (wasn't in his budget).

What has passed:
  • The Farm bill which has passed with bi-partisan support
  • Transportation Bill - which passed
  • Export-Import Bank Reauth - which conservatives abhor but passed anyway

So when all is said and done - he got everything he wanted in the first two years - hasn't been able to get important factions of his own party and repubs convinced on major legislation the last two years - and we still have a stagnant economy, systemic unemployment, mediocre GDP growth and an large year-over-year deficits.

To paint the current problems solely on Repubs is deflection at best or disingenuous at worst. The election will be a referendum on the last four years and the ppl will decide where the blame will be assigned.


Great post. I have nothing to add because you sumed it up so I'll just quote you. lol
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      08-13-2012, 08:39 AM   #6
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So we have 1 positive reply, and 3 denials, gotcha. I was not looking to debate you guys, I just wanted to know your thoughts. Thanks.
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      08-13-2012, 08:55 AM   #7
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So we have 1 positive reply, and 3 denials, gotcha. I was not looking to debate you guys, I just wanted to know your thoughts. Thanks.
God what a phoney. Typical Dem trying to play gotcha politics
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      08-13-2012, 09:30 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgrovr View Post
The presidency is a 4 year engagement. The Republicans have only been in charge of 1/2 of 1/3 of the government for just 2 of those years.

Obama had more than ample opportunity to not only set but advance his agenda during that timeframe with Stimulus, the Affordable Care Act, Financial Reform, Lily Ledbetter Act, and others..


Outside of that - what are the Repubs "obstructing" since taking office:
  • Obama's budget with got zero votes in the Senate (twice)
  • Obama's Jobs bill that hasn't left committee more due to blue dogs not wanting to vote to raise taxes.
  • The Dream act which Obama instituted portions thru executive order
  • Net Netruality, which has legitimate concerns on both sides
  • Simpson-Bowles recommendation - which Repubs did stop from leaving committee but Obama has disowned anyway (wasn't in his budget).

What has passed:
  • The Farm bill which has passed with bi-partisan support
  • Transportation Bill - which passed
  • Export-Import Bank Reauth - which conservatives abhor but passed anyway

So when all is said and done - he got everything he wanted in the first two years - hasn't been able to get important factions of his own party and repubs convinced on major legislation the last two years - and we still have a stagnant economy, systemic unemployment, mediocre GDP growth and an large year-over-year deficits.

To paint the current problems solely on Repubs is deflection at best or disingenuous at worst. The election will be a referendum on the last four years and the ppl will decide where the blame will be assigned.
x2

Xbook, your original premise is flawed, as shown above. If you disagree, prove your point. Otherwise, read and digest the facts.
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      08-13-2012, 11:19 AM   #9
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God what a phoney. Typical Dem trying to play gotcha politics
Showing that some things did pass isn't really germane to the argument, that's actually deflecting from the question. Several GOP senators have said that they were instructed to keep part ideals ahead of the needs of the country. Senators Bob Bennett and Arlen Specter have both confirmed that this was the case. They were told to no cooperate with the Obama Administration.

So either Senator Arlen Specter is lying, or the Republican leadership asked their members to put party first.

And please point out specifically where the policy of the Democratic Party's leadership instructed it's members to just plain not cooperate with the executive branch?
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      08-13-2012, 12:20 PM   #10
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Question

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Originally Posted by xbook View Post
They were told to no cooperate with the Obama Administration.

So either Senator Arlen Specter is lying, or the Republican leadership asked their members to put party first.
And you heard this from their mouths to your ears or what someone told you?
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      08-13-2012, 01:21 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by mspeasl View Post
And you heard this from their mouths to your ears or what someone told you?
I have read it from 2 different sources, as cited above. You can click a linky can't you?
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      08-13-2012, 01:49 PM   #12
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How do you feel about the Republican Party actively taking a position of party before country?

How do I feel about Republican party actively taking a position of party before country? I don't think they are doing that. I wont suggest filibustering is not happening, but I will suggest the reason for it is actually a patriotic act.

I cannot understand how some people are still stick on the whole "for the country, or for the party", as if you cannot do both unless you are a Democrat.

If I try and block a plan that I truly believe will bring misery to the country, how does that make me against the country ?

You may have a different vision of how to improve things than me, but to suggest that me trying to implement my plan is proof I want the country to fail is absurd. That's basically saying that you think that you are right 100% of the time, and anyone holding a contrary view is wrong 100% of the time.
Anyone who really believes that should not be allowed to vote.

In order to not be labeled hippocrites, I guess if Romney wins, then any ultra-right-wing proposals he puts forth will be supported completely by Democrat congressmen? After all, if they vote against it, it must mean they are mutinous traitors who wish to put their party ahead of the country, right?

One person upholding the principles they were elected to champion (ie: doing their job), becomes "obstructionism" in the eyes of anyone who happens to hold a different idea of how to improve things.

The craziest part of all, are the Obama lovers who think this "anti-patriotic" activity will magically stop in Nov if he gets re-elected.
If you truly believe that Republicans only want to harm the country, then what on earth could possibly make you think they will start co-operating?? If all Republicans are anti-American subversives, then they will be more determined than ever to ensure that the history book's take on his presidency will be one of ineffectual gridlock, and economic misery, wont they ? If he turns things around in his final 4 years, that cant be good for them right ? That will only increase the chance of another Democrat being elected in 2016.
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      08-13-2012, 02:20 PM   #13
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If I try and block a plan that I truly believe will bring misery to the country, how does that make me against the country ? You may have a different vision of how to improve things than me, but to suggest that me trying to implement my plan is proof I want the country to fail is absurd. That's basically saying that you think that you are right 100% of the time, and anyone holding a contrary view is wrong 100% of the time.
Wow, talk about missing the point. He never asserted any of the ideas you are defending here.

Nobody ever said that having a different idea is 100% wrong, or that it's bad to stand-up for what you believe in. But you're making a false assumption, that "your guys" do everything purely for principle, not for politics. You don't know that for a fact, and besides, it's irrelevant to this discussion. He wanted to know how you'd feel IF politicians were acting in a purely political manner. Saying "what if they're not" isn't a valid response.

Here's an example: Romney implemented an identical plan in Massachusetts to Obama's Affordable Care Act; so why in the world would he feel so strongly about striking it down that he vows to reverse it on his first day in office (nevermind that the premise is illogical)? - Politics -. There are countless examples of foreign policy decisions, domestic policy decisions, and just general shit (like vacation days) that would be wholeheartedly embraced, were it not for the fact that Obama's the one doing them. And the question to you guys is, what do you think of that?
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      08-13-2012, 03:23 PM   #14
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I have read it from 2 different sources, as cited above. You can click a linky can't you?
Again with a link to a liberal blog. Are we supposed to read that and accept their posts as facts?
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      08-13-2012, 03:49 PM   #15
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Wow, talk about missing the point. He never asserted any of the ideas you are defending here.
I interpreted a very different intent to the OP's question than that. Not sure where you are deriving the notion that the motive; "politics vs principle", is more important than the "country vs party" aspect of the accusatory tone of the question. He asked how Republicans feel about taking a position of party before country. That wording alone is very presumptuous, and implies that the idea that Republicans are putting anything before country is a foregone conclusion that nobody would dispute. That's like asking how long have you been beating your wife....

To me, the hot-button element to his question was the aspect of people intentionally acting in a manner that they believe to be harmful to their own country. Whether they do so to align with a party or not is irrelevant; the claim itself is a pretty serious accusation. Last I checked, that's called "TREASON".
I've heard that argument before, that by voting Republican, you are willfully supporting some entity which you know to be committing treason. That's insulting, and a big deal to a lot of people. To be clear, no, I dont subscribe to the premise of the question in the first place. No, I dont think that they are putting anything before country, and I wouldnt support any party if I felt that was the case.

To answer your question, what do I think of the "politics vs principle" aspect? I think, long term, big picture, they are the same. There is no distinction. Sure there may be some decisions that are not against conservative dogma, but in the grand scheme of things, they dont want to support something that they feel overall, longterm, will cause more damage.

For example, I dont care if 2 people of the same sex want to marry, or if a woman wants to get an abortion. I support those 2 traditionally democratic ideas. However, those dont affect me or my immediate family, but economic policies will affect me. So, if I support a Republican, I do so knowing that me may be against me on certain social issues, but I can endure that, knowing he will be on my side in other issues more important to me. Does that mean I am putting politics ahead of principle? NO, it means I'm thinking big picture. It's not a menu, you can't pick and choose elements you like.

The fact that the housing crisis started because a lot of dumb folks took on waaay too much mortgage proves to me and others that a lot of folks dont think long-term, big picture. They may like entitlements because they provide relief today, without the long term vision of how are we gonna pay for all this later. If some items that are not entirely anti-conservative get hit in the process of ridding the country of some approach I believe to be detrimental long term, that that's collateral damage I'm willing to take. If you gotta amputate my leg to save my life, well do it doc, using a cane beats being 6 ft under.
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      08-13-2012, 04:23 PM   #16
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Then how do you explain Romney (& the GOP) being against RomneyCare? Explain the repubs rallying around TARP, but railing against the Stimulus. Explain the cry to cut our debt, when it was caused by republican wars and tax cuts. Where was the outrage when Bush doubled our debt? And since when did forming a long-term plan to pare-down debt ever result in an immediate job boom? But repubs are pretending that it will. How about saving two big American companies (GM & Chrysler) and millions of American jobs? Horrible idea, right?

What constructive reason can you name for perpetuating the idea that Obama's a Muslim? And how is it that having your candidate spend half his campaign talking about anti-gay and anti-abortion topics doesn't seem like a huge turnoff to you? Maybe that's the real difference between dems and repubs. Because my kids are grown, and none of these social issues directly impacts me or my family, but I'll be damned if I'll ever support someone who denies people their freedom and rights.
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      08-13-2012, 05:30 PM   #17
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I'm not sure why you think it's up to me to explain or justify the motivations for every single action or position taken by the Republican party, as if I agree and endorse every one of them. You word those questions as though my previous answer makes you think I am in favor of each of the things you list. My home theme was that I dont support everything, but am willing to grin and bear it thru the bits I'm not fond of to support the bigger picture. Like eating your veggies even if you think candy tastes better.

I was refuting the original premise that a Republican supporter is taking a position of party before country. Not sure how pointing out that Republicans actually rallied around TARP doesnt refute the OP's premise that Republican obstructionism is the root of all evil, and I know you have each others back. Your post went way off topic there...

No, I dont think Obama is a Muslim. I'm not sure I agree with the insinuation that it is the official position of the Republican party that he is Muslim, or any other number of things. They haven't gone out of their way to repeatedly denouce anyone who says he is for the same reason that the Obama camp has not gone out of it's way refute ads which disingenuously suggest that Romney indirectly murdered Joe Soptic's wife when Bain shuttered a factory. Yes, unfair mudslinging comes both ways, no party is clean. How can you live with that? Oh right, you are "not familiar with that ad".

Like I said, it's not a menu. Sadly, you dont get to pick and choose, you can't construct some franken-candidate. Believe me, I wish you could.
I will support the group which I believe overall will be best long term. No choice is ideal; I'm sure even many Democrats cannot honestly say they are enthusiastic supporters of every single Democratic position on everything.

I dont think that reducing debt will create more jobs short term. Like I said, I'm more a long-term, big picture kind of guy. There is an economic catastrophe coming, and the Democrats response is like throwing gasoline on a fire. In the 1950's, there was something like 5.x taxpaying workers for every senior collecting benefits. And, due to the shorter life expectancies, they typically collected off the system for less than 10 years. Today, that number has fallen to something like 2.6 or 2.4 workers per senior, depending on how you do the math. To top it off, the number of years a person lives now compared to then has increased substantially as well, by some measures up to 15 years.

The load is now supported by less than half the people it used to be supported by, and it needs to be supported by twice the length of time it used to be supported. It seems these ratios will only get worse, financially speaking (not suggesting a longer life is a bad thing in isolation)

Bottom line, declining birthrate + increased life expectancy = future financial catastrophe. How anyone can think about those numbers and not be scared of how we will deal with this is beyond me. Is it cruel to gradually start clawing back seniors benefits now? Sure. Dont do it if you can avoid it. But, what will happen 40-50 years from now, when the shit really hits the fan if you dont? There will be <2 taxpayers for every senior who will require support for 30+ years. How do you pull that off? Increasing taxes on the 1% wont do the trick; there arent enough of them. Something is going to implode. Is it less cruel to kick that can down the road, let it snowball, then let those people (like YOUR KIDS) see what real misery is like? At least they will remember that dear old dad supported the party which allowed the gay couple down the street to marry, on principle, so they can chew on that when there's not enough money for any financial subsidy for expensive medical treatment due to living way beyond our means today.
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      08-15-2012, 07:50 PM   #18
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Trying to infer intentions based on rhetoric versus actions is a silly argument. If I'm to understand the Democrats on this thread's perception:

Democrats hold firm to their beliefs = principled.
Republicans hold firm to their beliefs = obstructionists.

It would be such an easier conversation if folks on the Democratic side would just be honest about it.

Congress is a co-equal branch of gov't, not subservient to the President - in any way. If legislation needs to pass, they are forced to compromise with each other if the party affiliation of those equal branches differ. And as of the largest example of actions, not rhetoric being measured - they both walked away from the Deficit grand-bargain in the beginning of the year - so there is plenty of blame.

The most notable example of obstructionism was the passing of the healthcare law where Republicans were literally shut out of committee meetings, not allowed to amend bills and passed a non-budget piece of legislation via reconciliation when it didn't qualify in order to pass the largest piece of public-sector legislation ever.
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      08-15-2012, 08:55 PM   #19
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The most notable example of obstructionism was the passing of the healthcare law where Republicans were literally shut out of committee meetings, not allowed to amend bills and passed a non-budget piece of legislation via reconciliation when it didn't qualify in order to pass the largest piece of public-sector legislation ever.
To say nothing of the vote buying that went on behind the scenes ala Chicago style
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      08-15-2012, 11:26 PM   #20
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Amazing. You guys claim that repubs do everything on principle, then when I give several examples of purely political stands, you say "I don't necessarily support everything the party does". You completely avoid my point. Nice job.

Maybe instead of repeating the same 5 paragraph diatribe in each post, you can try responding to my points. Oh, and nearly 50% of repubs say Obama's not Christian, whereas the number of people who've seen that fucking ad, let alone believe it, must be about 10. So yeah, good comparison.
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      08-16-2012, 12:25 PM   #21
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Fine, let's try again. Read slowly this time.

Not sure why you think the "politics vs principle" aspect is more important than the OP's initial position; that the big deal to talk about is the "party before country" aspect. Suggesting that someone is intentionally trying to harm his country is FAR more serious than saying that someone's action on any given issue is inconsistent with any previously stated ideology. Motivations and intentions are not nearly as relevant and outcomes and results. In the real world, final outcomes are what affects your family, not the motives of the entity which caused that outcome.

Like I said before, long term, politics vs principle is no distinction at all. If you do something that, when taken out of context by itself, might be purely "political" (ie: refute something a textbook conservative might typically support), IF that is part of serving the bigger cause, that actually helps towards implementing your principles. I may not support each and every single step they take to get to the end goal, but I do support their attempt to reach that goal. If I thought a different party was trying to get to that same goal with a more agreeable way to get there, I'd support them, but such a party does not seem to exist.

If a vegan was unemployed for a long time, ran out of benefits, and could no longer support their family, would you counsel them to decline a job offer working at a meat processing plant, just on principle? Maybe you would. If you think that it is a good thing to have a predisposition to being blinded by a naive fixation on never compromising your principles, even at the expense of your own long term best interests, well, good luck with that.
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      08-16-2012, 04:33 PM   #22
Fox128i
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Do Republicans use obstructionism? Of course they do, as do Democrats. This is nothing new in my opinion. Both sides of the aisle have used this tactic and will likely do so again and again and again. If I was a politician and disagreed with a certain piece of legislation, I would probably do the same thing.

Not saying it's the proper thing to do, but it's certainly done. As my father would say, "That's politics sonny-boy."
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