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      07-18-2007, 04:29 PM   #67
moss
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This is good news - but i'm not so sure that a headline stating RS4 beats M3 would sell quite as many magazines as M3, the new King.

Still it gives us some hope - Seems like theCSL is the only one to really buy (unless DCT makes a real difference)
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      07-18-2007, 04:43 PM   #68
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OK, so why did you make this post then if you are going to wait till next week?
Does driving a Nissan make you angry?
The guy wants to sell some issues.....
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      07-18-2007, 04:59 PM   #69
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Steved, I didn't make my point. What I was trying to say and couldn't find the words for, M and Quattro now have two strings to their performance bow and the M3 is the bottom of BMW's two and the RS is at the top of Audi's.
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      07-18-2007, 05:16 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by The CSL View Post
Steved, I didn't make my point. What I was trying to say and couldn't find the words for, M and Quattro now have two strings to their performance bow and the M3 is the bottom of BMW's two and the RS is at the top of Audi's.
Has BMW made a CSL anything other than the M3? How can that be considered two strings? Is there a CSL M5 or M6?
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      07-18-2007, 05:17 PM   #71
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Haven't you heard rumours of the M6 CSL? There's been spy-shots of an M5 at the 'Ring with a CFRP roof too.

It's two strings because the CSL in its three iterations has been above the usual M product. Same as the RS4 is above the S4.
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      07-18-2007, 05:31 PM   #72
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Steved, I didn't make my point. What I was trying to say and couldn't find the words for, M and Quattro now have two strings to their performance bow and the M3 is the bottom of BMW's two and the RS is at the top of Audi's.
Ok, I understand what you mean. Even though they achieve slightly different things, it was clear that BMW were aiming at the RS4 with the new M3, whereas I doubt Audi would see the point of trying to build a model to compete with an M3 CSL.

As someone else has already stated, unlike when the E46 M3 arrived in 2000/01 there is now considerably more choice from other manufacturers offering cars that are much closer to the philosophy that has appealed about M-cars. BMW will probably retain the high-ground in terms of ultimate driver orientation, but that's not what most customers buy, so the C63/RS4/RS5 etc offer a viable alternative where this didn't really exist before.

It should be interesting to see how this drives BMW's development priorities as well as future models, but it does not leave the new M3 as any lesser car, just no longer 'clearly' head and shoulders above the competition.
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      07-18-2007, 05:31 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CSL View Post
Haven't you heard rumours of the M6 CSL? There's been spy-shots of an M5 at the 'Ring with a CFRP roof too.

It's two strings because the CSL in its three iterations has been above the usual M product. Same as the RS4 is above the S4.
I don't believe all the rumors and hype. Just like I won't be cancelling my order anytime soon based on a few bad magazine reviews.

But, sorry you're so disappointed in your "hero" car that you never planned on getting in the first place.
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      07-18-2007, 05:48 PM   #74
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Well if anyone would like to suggest a car that matches my criteria then Ill be happy to consider it.....

400bhp plus/0-60 under 5 seconds type performance with suitable handling to go with it
4 seats
Quality Marque
£55000 upper limit
Delivery by next summer
2 door coupe
I can cruise comfortably on the motorway on 200-500 mile trips and feel good at the end
I can give it the beans on country roads in North Yorkshire (and elsewhere) and enjoy myself
New car, not used (I dont like hand me downs)

Suggestions would be welcome, because Im damned if I can think of anything that comes close to the new M3.

Steved, you know your stuff, any ideas?
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      07-18-2007, 06:18 PM   #75
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What transmission was the Audi sporting?

The fact is that many of the members on this board get hypersensitive about criticisms of the car... which is understandable to some extent. But to another extent, these are things that we should be able to take in stride, and accept as meaningful observations about the car that might assist in our decisions to purchase the car, rather than immediately label them as outright mendacities.

Was this a direct comparison? Was audi's transmission also a manual, or was the audi sporting a DCT? This makes a substantial amount of difference
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      07-18-2007, 06:19 PM   #76
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The Audi they used was manual.
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      07-18-2007, 06:20 PM   #77
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Steved, this is exactly why I consider EVO as the ultimate auto authority, and I read everything else just to simply pass the time. The depth of EVO's reporting is so far ahead of everything else out there. It is consistent and above all, responsible, which means you call it how you see it. If it is rubbish, then you say it is rubbish. No sugar coating, which means it must atleast be respected. (I just wish you guys were located in the U.S. so I didn't have to pay $160 for my subscription )

I have no doubt that your road test/comparison will report the most accurate findings, especially as how they relate to the "thrill of driving", which after all, is the reason why we buy sports cars.

Am I crazy or simply the only person that thinks the new M3 will be more accurately pitted against a Porsche 911??

The RS4 is inherently such a different car from the M3, I personally find the comparison almost unecessary. If Mitsubishi EVO's and Subaru Impreza's cost 20K more, we would never even hear about the RS4 because it would be competing against those AWD cars. In my opinion, it's Audi who has created a car in the RS4 which seems to be the one very much alone in true competition, so we have to find the closest things to it...the M3.

I have not lost one minute of sleep reading all this babble about how the RS4 is better than the M3.

Keep the faith people, I've got a feeling all this forum negativity will utterly disappear upon test-drives of the new M3.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steved View Post
I read the article just now and 'most' of what Sutters states is true, but.... and this is the frustrating part from my persepctive, he is economical with the truth in certain areas that I 'know' will provide controversy. The cynic in me sees an editorial input that was designed to generate interest and therefore sell more magazines.

Why do I think that? Well first of all there was a carelessness in the content of the article with several errors;

- the M3 doesn't weigh 1655kg versus 1650kg for the RS4
- the RS4 was not riding on 18" wheels
- and the previous E46 CSL did not happen 4 years into the E46 M3's lifespan.

Ok, maybe these are just semantics, the key message concerned the driving impressions.

Well given that we did exactly the same test as Autocar (namely drive an RS4 down to Marbella to compare), there were a few differences in our findings.

- Firstly our RS4 (the EVO long-termer) was not faster than our M3 - the video I have shows the M3 (with two people on board) pulling away from me on the autopista driving the RS4 on my own
- our RS4's steering was more vague compared to the M3's, so the opposite to the cars Autocar drove
- Our RS4 was inert when in the corner, and did not communicate grip levels as clearly as the M3 we had
- and whilst the RS4 sounded louder on start-up it was not as loud as the M3 once under load (I can look at the videos we took to remind me)
- Sutters talks about one moment during their drive when the M3 was scrabbling for grip, and likewise there was a seminal moment in our drive when over half a dozen times through the same corner we just couldn't find as much traction in the RS4 as we could in the M3.

So, what does that tell us. Well it certainly is not conclusive evidence of a win from either RS4 or M3. Sutters was right to say that they were two very different cars, and that's how they come across. Both likeable but for different reasons. So unless Autocar's RS4 was distinctly above average (remember our RS4 had been in EVO's ownership for 18 months and was a known quantity), then they have jumped to a conclusion that was never as forthcoming as they claim.

Now I like the RS4 and am considering buying a second hand one myself to cover mileage until my CSL arrives, but assuming we had identical cars then Autocar's conclusion is premature.
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      07-18-2007, 06:21 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3onTwomps View Post
Has BMW made a CSL anything other than the M3? How can that be considered two strings? Is there a CSL M5 or M6?
M6 CSL is set to make its appearance shortly and has been in development for some time. From what i understand it will pull another 50 hp, lowered weight, and also sport the debut of the DCT transmission. The details are still speculative though.
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      07-18-2007, 06:27 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
M6 CSL is set to make its appearance shortly and has been in development for some time. From what i understand it will pull another 50 hp, lowered weight, and also sport the debut of the DCT transmission. The details are still speculative though.
Sounds like a beast.
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      07-18-2007, 06:39 PM   #80
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Problem is, Quattro gmbh does not make the S4, they have nothing to do with it. The Quattro made cars are the RS cars only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The CSL View Post
Haven't you heard rumours of the M6 CSL? There's been spy-shots of an M5 at the 'Ring with a CFRP roof too.

It's two strings because the CSL in its three iterations has been above the usual M product. Same as the RS4 is above the S4.
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      07-18-2007, 06:49 PM   #81
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Nice

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Originally Posted by GregA View Post
Guys, do not forget the same magazine (Autocar) claimed new Ford Mondeo offers a better drive than E90 3er. And advertised that with huge bang!, and gigantic title on the cover.

I wonder whether it was the same guy who now wrote RS4 vs M3 article???

Excellent post. I missed that wonderful cover story. Quadruple !
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      07-18-2007, 08:52 PM   #82
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Isn't it obvious?
Yes it's obvious and that is what I was getting at.
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      07-19-2007, 12:10 AM   #83
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Any Tom, Dick or Harry? Steve Sutcliffe has raced in the British Touring Car Championship, more than can be said for Clarkson.
Clarkson is a jester at best but he's a damn good one. I love his show. Tiff however has my respect.
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      07-19-2007, 02:57 AM   #84
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It also beat out the M6 in that very test did it not? How does that square with your propeller shaped badge?

The VA track is a short track which favors lighter cars apparently, unless you're ready to say the 335i is faster in most circumstances than an M6? Someone also called into question the method in which the heavier cars were warmed up due to the physics of weight, tires/air pressure and hot lapping, the rules of their tests favored lighter cars due to the way they warmed each car up. This likely affected the M6 in this test as well.

But let's get real here. The RS4 has bested BMW's best efforts., this new M3 And for those who don't realize this, the RS4 might only be a 2.5 year old car, but it sits on a 6+ year old chassis. Why not just give credit where it's due?

I am sure the BMW M3 is a great car, it's OK to be 2nd place, the RS4 has received almost unanimous praise over the last several years for a very good reason. There's nothing to be ashamed of.
Man, on this M3post.com, there are a lot of Audi Fan Boys that:
1. Can't Read
2. Can't Comprehend
3. See what they want to see
4. IGNORANT
5. Probably all of the above.

The M6 lapped VIR faster than both the RS4 and the 335i. BTW, the M6 KILLED your pride and joy the RS4 by way over 1 second. Geesh... Can you read?

I have no problems with people that state facts to argue. But when jack-arses start misquoting data and figures to prove a point... well... it's quite pathetic to LIE and DECEIVE when the true numbers state otherwise:

RS4 - 3:11.2
M6 - 3:10.0

Some people...........
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      07-19-2007, 03:07 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by EM_5 View Post
Man, on this M3post.com, there are a lot of Audi Fan Boys
RS4 - 3:11.2
M6 - 3:10.0

Some people...........
I am sure they had their share of grief from bmw fanboiz when the RS4 was released. We need to create a forum for bmw and audi fanboiz to duke it out on their own time and turf.
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      07-19-2007, 03:35 AM   #86
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I am sure they had their share of grief from bmw fanboiz when the RS4 was released. We need to create a forum for bmw and audi fanboiz to duke it out on their own time and turf.
Sorry, I don't peruse about the Audi forums to flame. Quite frankly, the posts over there, I imagine, would be quite boring:

"My Quattro got me outta a ditch today"
"My Quattro really helps in the snow... Go Audi!"
"How do I disable the front wheels from spinning? Is there a fuse?"
"M3 Kill - I just killed a Bimmer in the rain today... woohoo!"
"My Quattro is sucking the life outta my engine at speeds above 25 MPH, Help?!?"
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      07-19-2007, 03:40 AM   #87
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hilarious...

Quote:
Originally Posted by EM_5 View Post
Sorry, I don't peruse about the Audi forums to flame. Quite frankly, the posts over there, I imagine, would be quite boring:

"My Quattro got me outta a ditch today"

"How do I disable the front wheels from spinning? Is there a fuse?"

"My Quattro is sucking the life outta my engine at speeds above 25 MPH, Help?!?"

... i'm rolling
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      07-19-2007, 06:40 AM   #88
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Quote:
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Problem is, Quattro gmbh does not make the S4, they have nothing to do with it. The Quattro made cars are the RS cars only.
I didn't know that. Thanks for the clarification.
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