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      07-18-2007, 12:49 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kem View Post
You can't just follow the different companies naming schemes and equate RS4 to CSL, the CSL was a track focused machine much like a GT3. The car had no stereo, aircon and no power anything.
Mind that Audi is positioning RS models way beyond M. Price wise, and power wise.

Eg. RS6 is coming with 580hp, while new RS4 (perhaps even RS5) is expected to get 480hp V8 bi-turbo. That's much more than M5 / M6 & M3 power output.

So, BMW will offer CSL models - the real aficionado cars, while M will be a performance car for less performance-demanding people.

I can see M going turbo as well in the near future, while CSL / CS models will stick with NA engines & raw racing feeling.
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      07-18-2007, 01:14 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregA View Post
So, BMW will offer CSL models - the real aficionado cars, while M will be a performance car for less performance-demanding people.
If you are right, then I think sales of the standard M3 will tank if the CSL becomes available in large quantities.

Look at the situation with Audi. I suspect S4 sales dropped significantly when the RS4 became available. Why buy an S4 when you know the RS4 is better in every way? Most performance-orented buyers who have the money for the RS4 will buy it every time over the S4. Status-conscious buyers who do not have the money for the RS4 will think twice about the S4 because it is not the top model in the lineup.

With BMW, the result will likely be that standard M3 sales will fall far short of the supposed goal of 100,000 units. Buyers will either get the CSL or the 335. Why pay a (significant) premium for the M3 over the 335 if the 335 nips at its heels on the low end, and the CSL outguns it on the high end?

All or nothing.
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      07-18-2007, 01:32 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jworms View Post
let me guess, this review is just like the auto express one in that it doesn't provide anything but an opinion and no performance facts to back it. am i right?
Excellent question. I'd very much like to see side by side acceleration numbers along with lap times as part of any serious comparison test. Also bear in mind that the Euro RS4 is lighter (anyone know by how much?) than what we see on this side of the pond so test results might not hold for U.S. spec cars.
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      07-18-2007, 01:33 PM   #48
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I agree 100% - which ever car you end up behind the wheel of RS4 or M3 - you're driving cars at the top of the game... we're all winners
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      07-18-2007, 01:45 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILC32 View Post
If you are right, then I think sales of the standard M3 will tank if the CSL becomes available in large quantities.

Look at the situation with Audi. I suspect S4 sales dropped significantly when the RS4 became available. Why buy an S4 when you know the RS4 is better in every way? Most performance-orented buyers who have the money for the RS4 will buy it every time over the S4. Status-conscious buyers who do not have the money for the RS4 will think twice about the S4 because it is not the top model in the lineup.

With BMW, the result will likely be that standard M3 sales will fall far short of the supposed goal of 100,000 units. Buyers will either get the CSL or the 335. Why pay a (significant) premium for the M3 over the 335 if the 335 nips at its heels on the low end, and the CSL outguns it on the high end?

All or nothing.

I guess CSL models will remain "Limited Edition" model, yet with more examples available than in current M3 CSL case. Yet CSL / CS models are intend to be very hard core - to please the real aficionados. While M models will be more comfort & luxury oriented - having appeal to much broader customer base. Eg. for people who rarely drive on the limit, and just need a powerful posing car - but still being aware of the real capabilities of the car.

M will still be very performance oriented, but also more convenient for day-to-day driving than ever before. Top-end regular models (eg 335i) will stay regular and civil - to appeal to masses.

The difference between S vs RS is that S is too mild to please the power-hungry customers. Eg. consider S as "mild" performer, RS as "regular plus" performer, M as "regular performer", and CSL as "hard performer".

The price will reflect that as well: S < M < RS < CSL.

PS: note that "CS / CSL" can also mean "Competition Sport / Competition Sport Limited".
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      07-18-2007, 01:47 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottomobeel View Post
I have no idea, I found this site from a blog post. I don't visit forums and ironically I also own a 325xi, so I wouldn't consider myself an Audi troll. I wouldn't have posted had I not seen the citation of the 335 Virginia track result, I think that article was very misleading.

Anyway, all these cars are different shades of excellent, so just enjoy what you want to enjoy, and for now the RS4 keeps top honors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottomobeel @ May 14th 2007 AutoBlog
Good gracious. The Audi hating by stupid BMW zombies never ceases to amaze me.

The RS4 is an exemplary achievement. It's hard not to wonder if the big delay in the arrival of the M3 has something to do with the RS4 success.

And now this sad news for BMW and their zealot fans. If this story is true, the RS5 will easily trounce the M3 when it arrives, roughly at the *same time* as the M3. And if its got twin turbos on top of the RS4 engine? Well that would make it an walk on the 911 as well now wouldn't it?
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Almost every other post you have made on Autoblog easily qualifies you as an Audi troll.
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      07-18-2007, 02:01 PM   #51
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I read the article just now and 'most' of what Sutters states is true, but.... and this is the frustrating part from my persepctive, he is economical with the truth in certain areas that I 'know' will provide controversy. The cynic in me sees an editorial input that was designed to generate interest and therefore sell more magazines.

Why do I think that? Well first of all there was a carelessness in the content of the article with several errors;

- the M3 doesn't weigh 1655kg versus 1650kg for the RS4
- the RS4 was not riding on 18" wheels
- and the previous E46 CSL did not happen 4 years into the E46 M3's lifespan.

Ok, maybe these are just semantics, the key message concerned the driving impressions.

Well given that we did exactly the same test as Autocar (namely drive an RS4 down to Marbella to compare), there were a few differences in our findings.

- Firstly our RS4 (the EVO long-termer) was not faster than our M3 - the video I have shows the M3 (with two people on board) pulling away from me on the autopista driving the RS4 on my own
- our RS4's steering was more vague compared to the M3's, so the opposite to the cars Autocar drove
- Our RS4 was inert when in the corner, and did not communicate grip levels as clearly as the M3 we had
- and whilst the RS4 sounded louder on start-up it was not as loud as the M3 once under load (I can look at the videos we took to remind me)
- Sutters talks about one moment during their drive when the M3 was scrabbling for grip, and likewise there was a seminal moment in our drive when over half a dozen times through the same corner we just couldn't find as much traction in the RS4 as we could in the M3.

So, what does that tell us. Well it certainly is not conclusive evidence of a win from either RS4 or M3. Sutters was right to say that they were two very different cars, and that's how they come across. Both likeable but for different reasons. So unless Autocar's RS4 was distinctly above average (remember our RS4 had been in EVO's ownership for 18 months and was a known quantity), then they have jumped to a conclusion that was never as forthcoming as they claim.

Now I like the RS4 and am considering buying a second hand one myself to cover mileage until my CSL arrives, but assuming we had identical cars then Autocar's conclusion is premature.
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      07-18-2007, 02:02 PM   #52
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I don't care what autolie says it's me who's gonna own this car not autolie. I said it many time but many of you saying negative things about M3 will be sorry when the M-DCT comes out.
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      07-18-2007, 02:13 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CSL View Post
I've just fired off an email, to say that traditionally the M3 has been a rival of the S4, in terms of comfort and luxury, but BMW have had to find their less focussed model going against Audi's more focussed model because they needed a power output that was comfortable against the next S4/5 during its life span. The CSL will be the true rival to the next RS4/5. Lest not forget, when Autocar preferred the M3 CS to the RS4 last year, the CS inherited the best parts of the CSL's steering and brakes, so had that more defined nature too.

I took the S5 for a good long drive along familiar roads this past weekend and I can assure you it is nowhere near being an M3 rival. It has 3 key problems; firstly Audi have tried to make it feel sporty by fitting stiff dampers but left it with softer springs, so that provided you drive it less than 6/10ths then it will feel taut and sporty, but up the pace and it soon looses all composure. The E92 M3 (even more than the E46 model) is nothing like that.

Secondly the S5 uses an electric power steering that feels very artificial and makes it difficult to place accurately, particularly on uneven roads. The RS4's steering is much better by comparison, as is the E92 M3s. Finally, the S5 (in manual form) has terrible driveline shunt, so changing from 1st to 2nd gear it is very difficult to achieve smoothly, and thereafter every other gear change, although slightly better, still retains the slack in the drivetrain that means most S5 buyers will want an automatic (which I am sure it must have been designed for). The S5 is not as truly sporting and dynamically sorted as a standard 335i, so how on earth it can be considered an M3 rival is beyond me.

I will tell you again but clearly you need to drive an M3 for yourself to understand that the M3 is more 'hard-core' than the RS4. The only time the RS4 sounds meaner than the M3 is when you start it up - the RS4 starts with a V8 'harrumph' noise, whilst the new M3 sounds very similar to an E46 M3. Thereafter all talk of being refined and softer are the 'exact opposite' of what you will find when driving the M3. Yes, it rides better but thereafter in every other area the RS4 is easier, smoother and softer.
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      07-18-2007, 02:24 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steved View Post
I read the article just now and 'most' of what Sutters states is true, but.... and this is the frustrating part from my persepctive, he is economical with the truth in certain areas that I 'know' will provide controversy. The cynic in me sees an editorial input that was designed to generate interest and therefore sell more magazines.

Why do I think that? Well first of all there was a carelessness in the content of the article with several errors;

- the M3 doesn't weigh 1655kg versus 1650kg for the RS4
- the RS4 was not riding on 18" wheels
- and the previous E46 CSL did not happen 4 years into the E46 M3's lifespan.

Ok, maybe these are just semantics, the key message concerned the driving impressions.

Well given that we did exactly the same test as Autocar (namely drive an RS4 down to Marbella to compare), there were a few differences in our findings.

- Firstly our RS4 (the EVO long-termer) was not faster than our M3 - the video I have shows the M3 (with two people on board) pulling away from me on the autopista driving the RS4 on my own
- our RS4's steering was more vague compared to the M3's, so the opposite to the cars Autocar drove
- Our RS4 was inert when in the corner, and did not communicate grip levels as clearly as the M3 we had
- and whilst the RS4 sounded louder on start-up it was not as loud as the M3 once under load (I can look at the videos we took to remind me)
- Sutters talks about one moment during their drive when the M3 was scrabbling for grip, and likewise there was a seminal moment in our drive when over half a dozen times through the same corner we just couldn't find as much traction in the RS4 as we could in the M3.

So, what does that tell us. Well it certainly is not conclusive evidence of a win from either RS4 or M3. Sutters was right to say that they were two very different cars, and that's how they come across. Both likeable but for different reasons. So unless Autocar's RS4 was distinctly above average (remember our RS4 had been in EVO's ownership for 18 months and was a known quantity), then they have jumped to a conclusion that was never as forthcoming as they claim.

Now I like the RS4 and am considering buying a second hand one myself to cover mileage until my CSL arrives, but assuming we had identical cars then Autocar's conclusion is premature.
Thanks Steve for this clarification. During this initial M3 review discussion, I have been inclined to defer to your opinion more than the other authors. I know many people here would claim that is because yours is the perspective I want to believe rather than what's been presented elsewhere, but that's not important. My inclination is based on the following:

1. You seem to get the details right. That matters a great deal. When I see a reviewer going sloppy even for a few words, that makes me question how sloppy they might have been in their overall assessment.

2. You drove down there with an RS4, and had the opportunity to drive both cars under similar conditions. Very few other reviewers were in that position.

3. You seem to like the RS4, so I don't feel like you have some kind of agenda against it.

4. You seem to qualify your observations and build to conclusions in a reasonable efficient (no drama) manner.

I am not saying I will buy the M3 based on what you've written so far--not that that's whay you've recommended or anything--but I am looking forward to more detailed reviews from you with data gathered under controlled conditions and so forth when the time comes. In the meanwhile, it helps to benefit from your perspective to put things in perspective.
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      07-18-2007, 02:31 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CSL View Post
Well, if people were looking for the most enjoyable car for 50k, it would seem the RS4 is just that - more enjoyable.
Yeah, if you didn't have an opinion of your own and you only went off a few magazine reviews.
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      07-18-2007, 02:31 PM   #56
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I cant take this, up, down, happy, sad. Roll on the demos before I have a nervous breakdown.
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      07-18-2007, 02:33 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
OK, so why did you make this post then if you are going to wait till next week?
Isn't it obvious?
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      07-18-2007, 02:33 PM   #58
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Thaks Lucid. This has been an interesting exercise for me, since despite performing many car reviews I have never undertaken one at the 'same time' as every other magazine (under identical conditions). What this shows me is how unreliable conclusions are, unless of course the differences between two cars are huge.

We know EVO's RS4 wasn't a dud, because its a known quantity and has been assessed against many other cars before, including the E46 M3 CS. We met up with the Autocar team whilst we were out there and the RS4 they were using was new to them, so its provenance is slightly less known (not that I suspect Audi of any tricks). I just feel we owe it to those who haven't driven the car to portray our impressions in as unsullied a form as we can, and let readers decide for themselves. Unfortunately that doesn't sell magazines, so as most of you already know, its best to form your own conclusions with inputs from a number of sources including your own experience when you drive one.
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      07-18-2007, 02:34 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2002 Tii View Post
Is this your way of thanking the guy?
For continuing his string of posts and thread to start a flame war? Gee, thanks!

Like he said...the cover says it all. No need to read the review or anyone elses. No need to test drive ourselves. No need to wait on any official competitions.

The cover says it all.

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      07-18-2007, 02:37 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottomobeel View Post
I guess it will be a long haul for you guys until the CSL comes out, I almost feel bad for you
ANd we do feel bad for someone pathetic enough to register on a BMW board so you can play kindergarten games.

What a joke.
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      07-18-2007, 02:55 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moss View Post
I agree 100% - which ever car you end up behind the wheel of RS4 or M3 - you're driving cars at the top of the game... we're all winners
All I know is that I'm going to test drive the RS4 and C63 AMG (and maybe the upcoming CTS-V) before I sign the contract for my M3. Too much great competition out there to ignore.
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      07-18-2007, 03:00 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carnuts3 View Post
All I know is that I'm going to test drive the RS4 and C63 AMG (and maybe the upcoming CTS-V) before I sign the contract for my M3. Too much great competition out there to ignore.
Good idea.
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      07-18-2007, 03:22 PM   #63
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EXACTLY

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Thanks Steve for this clarification. During this initial M3 review discussion, I have been inclined to defer to your opinion more than the other authors. I know many people here would claim that is because yours is the perspective I want to believe rather than what's been presented elsewhere, but that's not important. My inclination is based on the following:

1. You seem to get the details right. That matters a great deal. When I see a reviewer going sloppy even for a few words, that makes me question how sloppy they might have been in their overall assessment.

2. You drove down there with an RS4, and had the opportunity to drive both cars under similar conditions. Very few other reviewers were in that position.

3. You seem to like the RS4, so I don't feel like you have some kind of agenda against it.

4. You seem to qualify your observations and build to conclusions in a reasonable efficient (no drama) manner.

I am not saying I will buy the M3 based on what you've written so far--not that that's whay you've recommended or anything--but I am looking forward to more detailed reviews from you with data gathered under controlled conditions and so forth when the time comes. In the meanwhile, it helps to benefit from your perspective to put things in perspective.
Great post lucid and exactly along my lines of thinking. In the worst M3 reviews, which by the way all thus far have been entirely or mostly devoid of real test figures and numbers, the authors consistently make egregious errors of fact, things like 0-60 in 4.9, the weight, the tranny being from the E46, an aluminum exhaust in the M3, etc. For me your point #1 is incredibly relevant and important. If you gloss over the details in one area how can all the other details and conclusions be correct?

Secondly, we have some small arsenal of actual facts and figures of things like braking 100-0, quarter mile, 0-1000m, 0-2000m, etc. where the M3 significantly bests the RS4. Reviews for these cars that each walk a wonderful line of compromise between sport/GT and track ability/comfort need to state fairly clearly what the criteria are for the single "winner". It seems clear to me that if your most important criteria is outright performance the M3 will be the clear winner. Since that is my top criteria and we already know that the new car is extremely comfortable and will likely be priced significantly less than the RS4 the decision for me is simple.
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      07-18-2007, 04:04 PM   #64
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BMW M3 was always better than RS4-this sentence doesn't need comment.When Autocar put the title "RS4 beats M3" is strange and than more people buy this magazine.It is my point of view,I can't belive that RS4 is better.I think that they wanted to intrest more poeple to buy thier magazine,because almost every magazine write good words about M3.
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      07-18-2007, 04:11 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Great post lucid and exactly along my lines of thinking. In the worst M3 reviews, which by the way all thus far have been entirely or mostly devoid of real test figures and numbers, the authors consistently make egregious errors of fact, things like 0-60 in 4.9, the weight, the tranny being from the E46, an aluminum exhaust in the M3, etc. For me your point #1 is incredibly relevant and important. If you gloss over the details in one area how can all the other details and conclusions be correct?

Secondly, we have some small arsenal of actual facts and figures of things like braking 100-0, quarter mile, 0-1000m, 0-2000m, etc. where the M3 significantly bests the RS4. Reviews for these cars that each walk a wonderful line of compromise between sport/GT and track ability/comfort need to state fairly clearly what the criteria are for the single "winner". It seems clear to me that if your most important criteria is outright performance the M3 will be the clear winner. Since that is my top criteria and we already know that the new car is extremely comfortable and will likely be priced significantly less than the RS4 the decision for me is simple.
If it wasn't for a few select posters like Steve and Swamp, this forum would be such a waste of time. (I must admit Leg has been posting some pretty funny commentary lately). I am getting burned out I think...
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      07-18-2007, 04:15 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukas View Post
BMW M3 was always better than RS4-this sentence doesn't need comment.When Autocar put the title "RS4 beats M3" is strange and than more people buy this magazine.It is my point of view,I can't belive that RS4 is better.I think that they wanted to intrest more poeple to buy thier magazine,because almost every magazine write good words about M3.

Guys, do not forget the same magazine (Autocar) claimed new Ford Mondeo offers a better drive than E90 3er. And advertised that with huge bang!, and gigantic title on the cover.

I wonder whether it was the same guy who now wrote RS4 vs M3 article???

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