BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
VF Engineering
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-02-2012, 09:34 AM   #45
CanAutM3
Brigadier General
 
CanAutM3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

Posts: 3,728
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 BMW M4  [4.50]
2006 Audi S4  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
I've also been told by someone who is qualified to talk about these things, that the stock suspension can't provide enough grip for the Hankook R-S3 tires I've been running at the track. I found that comment interesting.
Today should be an exciting day!
Let me guess, this comes from someone who sells aftermarket suspensions...
CanAutM3 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 09:43 AM   #46
dogbone
Second Lieutenant
 
dogbone's Avatar
 
Drives: '09 E90 M3 - IB
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: 93 million miles from the Sun

Posts: 265
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Qualified or not, that makes no sense at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
+1 that's ridiculous. Now if they said the stock suspension won't work optimally with Grand-Am slicks that's another story.
hehe wow, ok, well I will try to confirm what he said.
dogbone is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 10:14 AM   #47
Groundpilot
Major
 
Groundpilot's Avatar
 
Drives: 135I DCT , e92 M3 DCT, Audi A6
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: long island,ny

Posts: 1,182
iTrader: (0)

Send a message via ICQ to Groundpilot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauce View Post
One of the biggest mistakes in driving is people focus on how the car reacts to THEM, not how the you react to the CAR. Try slowing down the hands, have better control of brake release, be smoother on the throttle. Usually rough combinations of those three things, brakes-steering-throttle, leads to weight being unnecessarily thrown around. Think of those three things as shifting weight.

With that said, I have a decent amount of seat time in M3's. I agree they do initially feel slightly big, wobbly and understeery. Settle it down though and it is very capable.
Agree with most of your points. OP should fix those 3 things that you mentioned and only after that i would start changing suspension set up. I dont have track seat time in my m3 yet, but when i push it hard on the street (rarely), i feel that it does not roll at all in edc sport mode(all stock). Cornering is as flat or even better than my track car 135i that is on a preatty stiff susp. setup.
__________________

David
Groundpilot is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 11:58 AM   #48
bigjae1976
That's what she said...
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Posts: 5,391
iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Actually this car is as close to neutral of any car that I have driven on track with a real nice balance of slight power on oversteer.My 08 seemed to be quite loose the majority of the time.In steady state cornering,you can control it very easily with very minor steering wheel corrections & throttle control which is great.
Yes! The E9X M3 can be a drift machine when compared to almost every other recent BMW (M or non-M) which the exception of the Z4M and M Coupes.

Honestly, I don't think the dampers and springs are not the weak point. The only upgrade that this car really could use is front camber plates.
__________________


Sponsored by Momentum BMW #593...We Bleed BMW BLUE!
bigjae1976 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 12:06 PM   #49
CanAutM3
Brigadier General
 
CanAutM3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

Posts: 3,728
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 BMW M4  [4.50]
2006 Audi S4  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Honestly, I don't think the dampers and springs are not the weak point. The only upgrade that this car really could use is front camber plates.
+1 Fully agree
CanAutM3 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 12:15 PM   #50
Sauce
Lieutenant
 
Sauce's Avatar
 
Drives: Montego 135
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Studio City

Posts: 527
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundpilot View Post
Agree with most of your points. OP should fix those 3 things that you mentioned and only after that i would start changing suspension set up. I dont have track seat time in my m3 yet, but when i push it hard on the street (rarely), i feel that it does not roll at all in edc sport mode(all stock). Cornering is as flat or even better than my track car 135i that is on a preatty stiff susp. setup.
It's really, really difficult to perceive body roll in the stock seat due simply to the fact that you are getting thrown around more than the car. Once you're hunkered down and not moving you can really feel the motions of the body and how the suspension is coping. Hold off your judgement on the body roll until you get to the track, street driving doesn't come close. What setup was on your 135? My car isn't extremely stiff but rolls very, very little. It's really low though, the tires are already in the fender. I think my fender is my bumpstop!

All these mid corner pics are AWESOME!!
__________________
KW V3's, Sparco Pro2000's, Vorshlag CP's, JB4, Heat Wrapped Raceland DP's, aFe stg. 2 Sealed Intake, Miro 111's, Hankook RS3's 225/245 (for now), Seibon M3 CF Hood, Turner Motorsports Alum. Radiator, Big Tom IC, BMW Performance bumper.

Sauce is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 12:29 PM   #51
Porschefile
Major
 
Porschefile's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tennessee

Posts: 1,232
iTrader: (6)

Here's my car at full tilt with stock suspension on PS2's. Doesn't seem so bad to me. I got coilovers not because the stock suspension sucks but because I felt like the modest improvement in performance, along with a better looks (dropped 1"), along with better tire wear, was worth it.
Attached Images
  
Porschefile is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 01:05 PM   #52
Gearhead999s
Major General
 
Gearhead999s's Avatar
 
Drives: E93 335is(wifes)E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto

Posts: 6,709
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
+1 Fully agree
My car wears the inside of the tires more both F&R at places like WGI where you tend to trail brake quite a bit.At least with the NT05's the stock camber settings seem to be OK.And I am quite aggressive and run in mid teens at WGI.
Gearhead999s is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 01:10 PM   #53
Groundpilot
Major
 
Groundpilot's Avatar
 
Drives: 135I DCT , e92 M3 DCT, Audi A6
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: long island,ny

Posts: 1,182
iTrader: (0)

Send a message via ICQ to Groundpilot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauce View Post
It's really, really difficult to perceive body roll in the stock seat due simply to the fact that you are getting thrown around more than the car. Once you're hunkered down and not moving you can really feel the motions of the body and how the suspension is coping. Hold off your judgement on the body roll until you get to the track, street driving doesn't come close. What setup was on your 135? My car isn't extremely stiff but rolls very, very little. It's really low though, the tires are already in the fender. I think my fender is my bumpstop!

All these mid corner pics are AWESOME!!
My 135i is on KW3 with swift springs400/800,c.plates -3/-2.2 camber
I know the difference between the track and street driving. But trust me, i can test the car on the street and tell if m3 has body roll or has understeer issues
__________________

David
Groundpilot is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 01:18 PM   #54
bigjae1976
That's what she said...
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Posts: 5,391
iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauce
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundpilot View Post
Agree with most of your points. OP should fix those 3 things that you mentioned and only after that i would start changing suspension set up. I dont have track seat time in my m3 yet, but when i push it hard on the street (rarely), i feel that it does not roll at all in edc sport mode(all stock). Cornering is as flat or even better than my track car 135i that is on a preatty stiff susp. setup.
It's really, really difficult to perceive body roll in the stock seat due simply to the fact that you are getting thrown around more than the car. Once you're hunkered down and not moving you can really feel the motions of the body and how the suspension is coping. Hold off your judgement on the body roll until you get to the track, street driving doesn't come close. What setup was on your 135? My car isn't extremely stiff but rolls very, very little. It's really low though, the tires are already in the fender. I think my fender is my bumpstop!

All these mid corner pics are AWESOME!!
Link him to the schroth harness thread, it's loaded with great info and nail biting suspense.
__________________


Sponsored by Momentum BMW #593...We Bleed BMW BLUE!
bigjae1976 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 01:19 PM   #55
bigjae1976
That's what she said...
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Posts: 5,391
iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
+1 Fully agree
My car wears the inside of the tires more both F&R at places like WGI where you tend to trail brake quite a bit.At least with the NT05's the stock camber settings seem to be OK.And I am quite aggressive and run in mid teens at WGI.
Odd. I would cord conti scrubs very quickly on the outer shoulder.
__________________


Sponsored by Momentum BMW #593...We Bleed BMW BLUE!
bigjae1976 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 01:27 PM   #56
Porschefile
Major
 
Porschefile's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tennessee

Posts: 1,232
iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Odd. I would cord conti scrubs very quickly on the outer shoulder.
I had very bad wear on the front on the outsides of PS2's as well with stock camber, at multiple tracks. Although I will say that I think the -2.0 rear I'm running now may be just a tad much, it seems to wear insides too quick. Front is now -2.7, we will see how that goes as far as street/track use.
Porschefile is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 01:35 PM   #57
Sauce
Lieutenant
 
Sauce's Avatar
 
Drives: Montego 135
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Studio City

Posts: 527
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundpilot View Post
My 135i is on KW3 with swift springs400/800,c.plates -3/-2.2 camber
I know the difference between the track and street driving. But trust me, i can test the car on the street and tell if m3 has body roll or has understeer issues
Huh, we have the same setup minus the Swift springs on my part. For a street car I think it's pretty good. The only time I am disappointed with it is after driving an s2000 or something of the like.

That last part scares me!
__________________
KW V3's, Sparco Pro2000's, Vorshlag CP's, JB4, Heat Wrapped Raceland DP's, aFe stg. 2 Sealed Intake, Miro 111's, Hankook RS3's 225/245 (for now), Seibon M3 CF Hood, Turner Motorsports Alum. Radiator, Big Tom IC, BMW Performance bumper.

Sauce is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 01:39 PM   #58
Gearhead999s
Major General
 
Gearhead999s's Avatar
 
Drives: E93 335is(wifes)E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto

Posts: 6,709
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Odd. I would cord conti scrubs very quickly on the outer shoulder.
I will try to post pictures tonight of my tires after WGI.

Hoosiers/Continentals Grand Am Cups require a lot more camber to wear properly.Nt05's,Ra1's require a lot less camber for sure.

Last edited by Gearhead999s; 08-02-2012 at 01:45 PM.
Gearhead999s is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 01:41 PM   #59
LiM3y
Major
 
LiM3y's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 E90 M3
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CT

Posts: 1,233
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Link him to the schroth harness thread, it's loaded with great info and nail biting suspense.
Oh no you didn't! LOL!
__________________
LiM3y is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 01:43 PM   #60
CanAutM3
Brigadier General
 
CanAutM3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

Posts: 3,728
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 BMW M4  [4.50]
2006 Audi S4  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
My car wears the inside of the tires more both F&R at places like WGI where you tend to trail brake quite a bit.At least with the NT05's the stock camber settings seem to be OK.And I am quite aggressive and run in mid teens at WGI.
Interesting... it seems that the/your ZCP setup much better controls camber variation under load.

I tend to really wear the outside edges of my front Nitto NT01s. I usually wear more the inside of the tires at the rear so it sort of balances out (Power-on oversteer ) .

However last week at CMP, I corded the outside of one rear tire with plenty of meat left on it . It seems CMP is pretty abrasive, as quite a few in my group of buddies corded tires on that weekend.

I just got my car aligned yesterday and dialed up the front camber to -2.8. I'll test it out this weekend at LCMT .

Last edited by CanAutM3; 08-02-2012 at 01:50 PM.
CanAutM3 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 07:11 PM   #61
Gearhead999s
Major General
 
Gearhead999s's Avatar
 
Drives: E93 335is(wifes)E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto

Posts: 6,709
iTrader: (0)

As promised here are the pics of my tires after about 3 hours of use at WGI.

Right side RF to the left RR to the right of the pic


Left side LF right side LR left side


These tires have about 10 days on them and were flipped on the rims after 6 days.I expect another 4-6 days use are left on these tires.Remember I run 100% factory camber settings.

Prerequisite shot with my dog Dakota
Gearhead999s is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 09:52 PM   #62
bigjae1976
That's what she said...
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Posts: 5,391
iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiM3y View Post
Oh no you didn't! LOL!
Oops...I did it again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
I had very bad wear on the front on the outsides of PS2's as well with stock camber, at multiple tracks. Although I will say that I think the -2.0 rear I'm running now may be just a tad much, it seems to wear insides too quick. Front is now -2.7, we will see how that goes as far as street/track use.
I run -3.0 at the track. I think its a tad too much since the outer edges are pristine. I haven't taken tire temps though. So -2.7 might be just right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
As promised here are the pics of my tires after about 3 hours of use at WGI.

Right side RF to the left RR to the right of the pic


Left side LF right side LR left side


These tires have about 10 days on them and were flipped on the rims after 6 days.I expect another 4-6 days use are left on these tires.Remember I run 100% factory camber settings.

Prerequisite shot with my dog Dakota
You're an animal!
__________________


Sponsored by Momentum BMW #593...We Bleed BMW BLUE!
bigjae1976 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 10:31 PM   #63
Gearhead999s
Major General
 
Gearhead999s's Avatar
 
Drives: E93 335is(wifes)E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto

Posts: 6,709
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post

You're an animal!
I have heard that more than a few times
Gearhead999s is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-02-2012, 10:42 PM   #64
RickyBobby
Lieutenant
 
RickyBobby's Avatar
 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NorCal

Posts: 462
iTrader: (1)

The bump stops are what ultimately limits roll on the stock suspension. It takes approx 500lb springs up front to keep our cars off of the bump stops.
Roll isn't necessarily a bad thing either. As gearhead mentioned, more compliant setups can generate more grip than overly stiff setups. I didn't have any complaints of roll when my car was stock. Of course my ast's are better but they still produce enough roll on hoosiers to generate stupid amounts of grip and control.
RickyBobby is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2012, 08:58 AM   #65
leo95se
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 09 JB e92, Q5 and passat
Join Date: May 2009
Location: CT

Posts: 491
iTrader: (1)

this is turning into a fun thread!

so after this weekend, i obviously agree my driving needs work - its humbling to be passed by a (quite modded) e30 m3, but also interesting to see where i cant keep up due to roll. i do agree getting tossed around plays a big part in perception. my knees are bruised from bracing myself!

also, my tires were beat to crap, 2 weekends out of them. so, in addition to 'roll', less than ideal camber plays into this, i believe. i am thinking camber plates are really needed. doubt they will help much with roll, but should get the car a bit more settled.

ill get some pics from tracktimephotos up, but here is a quick teaser vid.
leo95se is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2012, 09:55 AM   #66
von_zoom
Captain
 
von_zoom's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Z06
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: North Carolina

Posts: 913
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
my knees are bruised from bracing myself!
I have been using knee pads for some time now to prevent soreness (or at least limit it) plus I drape a foam rubber sheet over the seat. Between the two, the factor seat belt keeps me somewhat stable in the car, but less than satifactory. I still have to use my hands and arms to help stablize my body.
I have considered changing seats and installing a roll bar to have a five point system, but I do not want to change the car due to resell soon.
vz
__________________


Previous Track Toy
von_zoom is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:26 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST