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      08-01-2012, 03:59 PM   #23
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Again, my car is non-EDC and I haven't noticed an issue with body roll even when I was running conti scrubs. I did have the usual outer tire wear on the front tires from a lack of camber.
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      08-01-2012, 04:43 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Nope.My ZCP is pretty flat & quite well balanced.
+1,

Non-ZCP with Eibach/ EDC on VIR






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      08-01-2012, 05:34 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
It doesn't matter whether it's ZCP really.
Gearhead seemed to think so....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Believe me the car rolls very little as evidenced by my tire wear on this car with stock camber settings compared to my 08 which rolled a lot more.The NT05's do not seem to require a lot of camber to work properly on track.
From a different thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
I had both the standard EDC suspension in my 08 and the ZCP in my 11.The ZCP is far superior in handling feel on & off the track and is much easier on tires on the track.I am not sure how much more cornering speed difference it makes but it is flatter and much more neutral than my other car with very little difference in ride comfort.Well worth having IMO.
There are pictures as well but I won't repost them here (although they are more useful than most of the pictures here since they show differences in body roll while somewhat removing the driver/cornering speed from the comparison).

Obviously the thread title is subjective as "too much" is up to interpretation. But I thought it was interesting that something causes a ZCP EDC M3 to lean less than a non-ZCP EDC M3 (according to posts). Therefore, if the OP is unhappy with the body roll his M3 is exhibiting, it would be good to identify why the ZCP is better and suggest those.

My understanding is that the ZCP does not have different sway bars. I agree that coilovers are a fix. Are springs enough/do they make a noticeable impact?

And the suggestions re driving style are certainly relevant as that can definitely have an impact
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      08-01-2012, 05:38 PM   #26
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ZCP springs are ~.5" shorter. Not a huge deal. Yes, lowering springs reduce body roll somewhat.

IMO it would be kind of dumb to buy ZCP pieces when you can get aftermarket stuff for the same price or less that will make an even bigger difference.

My 2c.
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      08-01-2012, 05:49 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
ZCP springs are ~.5" shorter. Not a huge deal. Yes, lowering springs reduce body roll somewhat.
What about EDC remapping? I thought there was some difference -- is that true or is it quite minor?

Quote:
IMO it would be kind of dumb to buy ZCP pieces when you can get aftermarket stuff for the same price or less that will make an even bigger difference.

My 2c.
Definitely agree here (actually one of the reasons I bought a non-EDC M3 to begin with, since I knew I would want to swap it out regardless)
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      08-01-2012, 05:54 PM   #28
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My 08 with same tires as the 11




My 11 with ZCP


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      08-01-2012, 06:09 PM   #29
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      08-01-2012, 06:20 PM   #30
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'09 - stock suspension. Lean much?

Hopefully, a large box that's just arrived from Holland will take care of this nagging issue.....Getting installed tomorrow!
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      08-01-2012, 07:13 PM   #31
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I accept the driver input comments and do think it's my issue. Looking at pics, my car is similar to the above. That's the frustrating part , and where I know I need to improve.
The car is heavy, though.
I'll get a link to a vid tonight, an hope criticism is in order!
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      08-01-2012, 10:44 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
'09 - stock suspension. Lean much?

Hopefully, a large box that's just arrived from Holland will take care of this nagging issue.....Getting installed tomorrow!
Most roll award. Is the car EDC, and if so what setting?
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      08-01-2012, 11:08 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
Most roll award. Is the car EDC, and if so what setting?
hehe now there's an award I never wanted!

Yes, the car is EDC and it was set to it's maximum setting of two orange lights in this pic. (This was at LVMS during the most recent MFest. This turn is flat. The car just leans like crazy. It's especially bad when going through multiple esses. The quick weight transitions back and forth are not a great experience.)

Anyway, tomorrow a JRZ RS Pro setup is being installed. I am quite excited.
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      08-01-2012, 11:59 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
hehe now there's an award I never wanted!

Yes, the car is EDC and it was set to it's maximum setting of two orange lights in this pic. (This was at LVMS during the most recent MFest. This turn is flat. The car just leans like crazy. It's especially bad when going through multiple esses. The quick weight transitions back and forth are not a great experience.)

Anyway, tomorrow a JRZ RS Pro setup is being installed. I am quite excited.
nice that will make a huge difference.
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      08-02-2012, 05:43 AM   #35
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First, to answer OP question, I have a non-ZCP with EDC car and it does roll, but I find it pretty manageable at the track. The M3 is an awsome all rounder . But it does need camber plates to manage tire wear.

As far as the comments about EDC setting and roll, I am reading quite a few misconceptions: damper stiffness does not have an impact on steady state roll. By definition, dampers need movement to exercise force, so once settled, the dampers are not resisting roll. So regardless if you are using comfort or sport, once settled, the amount of roll will be the same. The difference lies in the transition, where a stiffer damper setting will resist the roll transition more and make the car react quicker while it is taking its set.

I can see how ZCP can make a significant difference on roll. First the lower ride height reduces the height of the CG thus reducing the weight transfer during cornering. Second, the higher spring rate directly contributes to resist steady state roll. The same logic applies to aftermarket springs or coilovers.

So if you want to reduce roll, I would recommend lowering/stiffer springs. IMO stiffer ARB may make the car jumpy on bumpy surfaces.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 08-02-2012 at 07:21 AM.
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      08-02-2012, 06:16 AM   #36
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Isn't the car going from flat to tilted in a corner a "roll transition", so by your description, the shocks are resisting the roll that the OP is talking about? Doesn't the EDC react to the weight transition, slow the compression of the spring and like a good lover push back? I am not sure what you mean by steady state roll...is this the position when the car is at its maximum load/tilt for the corner?
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      08-02-2012, 06:30 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiM3y View Post
Isn't the car going from flat to tilted in a corner a "roll transition", so by your description, the shocks are resisting the roll that the OP is talking about? Doesn't the EDC react to the weight transition, slow the compression of the spring and like a good lover push back? I am not sure what you mean by steady state roll...is this the position when the car is at its maximum load/tilt for the corner?
Precisely.

Stiffer dampers will increase the time it takes for the car to roll, but ultimately it will roll just as much in a corner. The only exception is in very quick side to side transitions where the car does not have time to take a set, stiffer dampers will reduce roll there. But this is not steady state . It the vast majority of corners there is plenty of time for the car to settle.
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      08-02-2012, 07:01 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post

So if you want to reduce roll, I would recommend lowering/stiffer springs. IMO stiffer ARB may make the car jumpy on bumpy surfaces.
In playing with our E30 racecar many years ago we found that playing with spring rates had a much more positive effect on handling than just increasing roll stiffness by changing bars.Having more roll stiffness will increase wheel lift on transitions.The big issue in changing spring rates is to to have enough damping adjustment range to work with a stiffer spring rate.Everything has to work together to handle properly.
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      08-02-2012, 07:41 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
First, to answer OP question, I have a non-ZCP with EDC car and it does roll, but I find it pretty manageable at the track. The M3 is an awsome all rounder . But it does need camber plates to manage tire wear.

As far as the comments about EDC setting and roll, I am reading quite a few misconceptions: damper stiffness does not have an impact on steady state roll. By definition, dampers need movement to exercise force, so once settled, the dampers are not resisting roll. So regardless if you are using comfort or sport, once settled, the amount of roll will be the same. The difference lies in the transition, where a stiffer damper setting will resist the roll transition more and make the car react quicker while it is taking its set.

I can see how ZCP can make a significant difference on roll. First the lower ride height reduces the height of the CG thus reducing the weight transfer during cornering. Second, the higher spring rate directly contributes to resist steady state roll. The same logic applies to aftermarket springs or coilovers.

So if you want to reduce roll, I would recommend lowering/stiffer springs. IMO stiffer ARB may make the car jumpy on bumpy surfaces.
Good advice, especially about stiffer springs being preferable to ARB's. I can tell you that my car had way more perceived body roll in comfort EDC than sport. Whether it was actually rolling less, I don't know, but it felt like it rolled less, which is really the problem here.

Dogbone: Awesome choice in dampers. JRZ makes nice stuff. I think JRZ, moton SS, and KW CS are the best dampers for under $5k (possibly in that order as well).
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      08-02-2012, 08:40 AM   #40
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Nothing wrong with some body roll as long as you aren't screwing up the tire, in general you want the car to be as soft as possible with the limiting factors being good tire wear and good transition behavior. Stock spring rates on just about every car ever made fall short of where they need to be to take care of the tires, but compliance is very important

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
My 08 with same tires as the 11




My 11 with ZCP


Looks like your new car understeers more
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      08-02-2012, 08:49 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
Dogbone: Awesome choice in dampers. JRZ makes nice stuff. I think JRZ, moton SS, and KW CS are the best dampers for under $5k (possibly in that order as well).
I've got 10 track days plus a couple skid pad days under my belt this year. While other aspects of the car like brakes, wheels, camber plates were upgraded early on, I waited until I felt like I could appreciate what a new suspension was doing for the car. As the track days kept piling up, I got more confident as a driver and was pushing the car hard enough and feeling the limitations, so the hunt for a suspension was on. I kept hearing that if you go with a quality damper, that you don't have to kill it with spring rates. So, after a long debate, and getting rides in a bunch of cars, I decided JRZ's reputation with the quality of their dampers was the route to try. I'm starting with a modest JRZ-recommended spring rate setup, and they've custom-valved the internals to be a bit friendlier to the street since my car is also my DD. I fully plan on having street and track settings for the suspension, so I'm happy to have canisters that make everything easy to adjust.

An interesting side note in all of this -- I've also been told by someone who is qualified to talk about these things, that the stock suspension can't provide enough grip for the Hankook R-S3 tires I've been running at the track. I found that comment interesting.

Anyway, I'm fascinated to see how the suspension affects the car and my driving at the track. I wonder how long it will take to get used to the different feel of the car. Aug 11 is the first track day with the new setup. Buttonwillow is as challenging a place as any to put a new suspension to the test. You're ALWAYS in transition at that dang track.

As far as craftsmanship, these JRZ's look impressive. The JRZ thrust bearings are beefy! Here's a pic of the top of the front shock assembled with the GC race plates. JRZ thrust bearing and spring. I've also got a tender spring below the main spring.

Today should be an exciting day!
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      08-02-2012, 08:53 AM   #42
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Quote:
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An interesting side note in all of this -- I've also been told by someone who is qualified to talk about these things, that the stock suspension can't provide enough grip for the Hankook R-S3 tires I've been running at the track. I found that comment interesting
Qualified or not, that makes no sense at all.
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      08-02-2012, 08:59 AM   #43
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Quote:
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Qualified or not, that makes no sense at all.
+1 that's ridiculous. Now if they said the stock suspension won't work optimally with Grand-Am slicks that's another story.
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      08-02-2012, 09:00 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Nothing wrong with some body roll as long as you aren't screwing up the tire, in general you want the car to be as soft as possible with the limiting factors being good tire wear and good transition behavior. Stock spring rates on just about every car ever made fall short of where they need to be to take care of the tires, but compliance is very important



Looks like your new car understeers more
Actually this car is as close to neutral of any car that I have driven on track with a real nice balance of slight power on oversteer.My 08 seemed to be quite loose the majority of the time.In steady state cornering,you can control it very easily with very minor steering wheel corrections & throttle control which is great.
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