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      05-10-2014, 12:35 PM   #1
RickyRaz
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Question e90/92 M3 OR e60 M5? Any thoughts or suggestions? Experiences?

Hey guys,

I've been looking for either a e90/92 M3 or a e60 M5 and noticed that they are roughly the same price with similar mileage, at lease when comparing 2008 models. I find this very surprising.

How come you can have 2 more cylinders and 80 more hp for the same price?
Do the e90s simply hold more value or the e60s lose value quickly?

Anybody have experience with long-term or high mileage with these cars?
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      05-10-2014, 12:45 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickyRaz View Post
Hey guys,

I've been looking for either a e90/92 M3 or a e60 M5 and noticed that they are roughly the same price with similar mileage, at lease when comparing 2008 models. I find this very surprising.

How come you can have 2 more cylinders and 80 more hp for the same price?
Do the e90s simply hold more value or the e60s lose value quickly?

Anybody have experience with long-term or high mileage with these cars?


the e60 is becoming the 996 kind of. Some people don't care for the interesting look the e60 chassis had. I actually like it alot.

A bigger reason for the value decline being sharper I believe is that many of these cars are now out of warranty and although most are very reliable, it's a scary thought to buy a used BMW v10 with SMG !! God forbid something goes wrong it will most times be expensive. The s85 v10 is the same motor + 2 extra cylinders but also uses a high pressure vanos system. If you look at the prices of used motors you can also pick up a used M5 motor for under 10k.

IMO the e60 M5 is an excellent value right now, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one; however, it's still maintaining a 100k car.
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      05-10-2014, 01:02 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickyRaz
Hey guys,

I've been looking for either a e90/92 M3 or a e60 M5 and noticed that they are roughly the same price with similar mileage, at lease when comparing 2008 models. I find this very surprising.

How come you can have 2 more cylinders and 80 more hp for the same price?
Do the e90s simply hold more value or the e60s lose value quickly?

Anybody have experience with long-term or high mileage with these cars?
Depends on what you want in a car but the E60 M5 is certainly a good buy these days! The sound of that V10 with an after market exhaust is simply incredible, just for that I think it's worth it! The maintenance of the car will probably be a bit more expensive but considering you can get a car in excellent condition for less then 40% of the retail price, I think it's a pretty good deal!
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      05-10-2014, 01:06 PM   #4
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The E6x M5 and M6 really did depreciate a lot and lose their resale value. Like he said, the reasons are two fold. The styling isn't really what you call attractive. And the reliability problems are common. Most of those cars came with the SMG automatic gearbox which in addition to being a terrible gearbox (not nearly as nice as the DCT) also has reliability issues. And the high pressure VANOS in the S85 engine is another problematic component. I believe the sheer size and weight of those cars, coupled with abysmal fuel economy, is also a turn off for some buyers. You can get an E9x M3 sedan or coupe that will be almost as practical, with slightly better fuel economy, better styling, and better handling and performance.
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      05-10-2014, 01:24 PM   #5
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the e60 is becoming the 996 kind of.
What he said
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      05-10-2014, 02:20 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex07M3 View Post
The sound of that V10 with an after market exhaust is simply incredible, just for that I think it's worth it!
Haha.. yea that's the reason I first fell in love with it when my buddy had one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by s85e90 View Post
Some people don't care for the interesting look the e60 chassis had. I actually like it alot.
I actually like it a lot as well. I know many people here don't.

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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
the reliability problems are common. Most of those cars came with the SMG automatic gearbox which in addition to being a terrible gearbox (not nearly as nice as the DCT) also has reliability issues. And the high pressure VANOS in the S85 engine is another problematic component. I believe the sheer size and weight of those cars, coupled with abysmal fuel economy, is also a turn off for some buyers. You can get an E9x M3 sedan or coupe that will be almost as practical, with slightly better fuel economy, better styling, and better handling and performance.
Great points... The size and weight don't bother me too much. I'm pretty tall (6'5) and the M5 maybe be better suited. I tried to look for the six-speed manuals but they are much rarer and there isn't any close by.


I will try to get the car inspected at BMW. I don't know but I hope they can give me an idea on the condition of the transmission and engine (VANOS).

Seems like it's going to come down to long-term costs.I love the handling of the M3 and also the sensation of the V10.
DECISIONS DECISIONS...
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      05-10-2014, 04:12 PM   #7
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Stay away from 06/07... Engines and SMG are troublesome.. These two years are about the most sold, and the most common out there, but also dont have the best reliable record. This is why some might think re-sale is bad, esp for these years.

09/10 are the best years to get
Engine has alot of different details compared to the 06/07 like newer vanos parts, 2 engine oil drains, stronger engine bolts, piston oil squirters, newer 702/703 rod bearings etc.
For these years also SMG is on the latest hardware/software, and its nice and smooth compared to older years.
08's are in the middle,engine doesnt have the oil squirters, newer rod bearings, and will most likely be on older SMG software.

I think the 09/10 V10 SMG's will retain a good resale value having the third and latest version of the V10, and latest SMG HW/SW. They have proven to be pretty reliable and alot more so then previous years as a whole.

E60 is alot more roomy then say a E90.. backseats are very comfortable aswell to use, truck sapce is decent aswell..
im 6'2 and i feel alot more comfortable in a E60, but that not to say i wasnt uncomfortable in my E90, just not alot of extra room.
Modded M5's can put up to 500whp, and they are fast/brutal as hell with the tranny in S6 mode.. They are 4000lbs, so not out the box track, precision tool to toss around lightly ,but if anyone has driven one, they know for its size, its an amazing drive.
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      05-10-2014, 04:20 PM   #8
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The selling point of the m5 is the v10 engine. The m3 is more than a engine. Although the v8 is pretty dam cool. Not going to lie that v10 scream is nuts
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      05-10-2014, 04:39 PM   #9
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I would try to get a MT M5 even if it is 2000+ miles away. SMG out of warranty is scary.
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      05-10-2014, 04:52 PM   #10
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Get the M3. The M5 is overkill and both cars are going to get smoked by a lot of cars. The repair costs could suck and you might worry about it. The M5 has worse gas mileage and higher insurance. Drive both and see which you like more.
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      05-10-2014, 11:28 PM   #11
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Wow. Looks like the consensus is that the SMG is or could be a big problem. Most of them for sale are 06-08 models. I will try to look for 09/10 or manuals. Otherwise, the M3 sounds like a better choice. From what I've read, the V8 is more reliable and the DCT as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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      05-10-2014, 11:46 PM   #12
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If you want a DD the M5 is bad ass, but its no kinda track car, the e92 will whip ass all on a m5 on the track, V10 is a beautiful thing tho, the SMG trans isnt near as good as the DCT either.
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      05-11-2014, 12:03 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickyRaz View Post
Wow. Looks like the consensus is that the SMG is or could be a big problem. Most of them for sale are 06-08 models. I will try to look for 09/10 or manuals. Otherwise, the M3 sounds like a better choice. From what I've read, the V8 is more reliable and the DCT as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I too was looking at 2008 M5 with SMG and for all the reasons mentioned above, I went with E90 M3 instead back in 2011. Dealer was asking $51k OTD for a $90k+ car. I was curious to how does a $90k car drop over 50% of its value in 3 years. When I did my research, like others mentioned, that explained why.

I was also able to get new E90 as opposed to 3 year old lease return which helped the decision making for myself.

As for space, I'm only 5'11" so I'm okay in the driver's seat/head and leg room. Plus my kid (another one due in Sept) are small so not too worried about leg room in the back yet. I'm really glad I picked the E90 and I've never looked back.

Good luck with your decision
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      05-11-2014, 06:15 AM   #14
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If you want to know more than you ever wanted to know, go to the M5board E60 section and read posts/threads by jcolley, B767capt, and a few others.

A number of years ago it was posted about the SMG M5/M6 being the most-towed BMW in BMWNA's history as a percent of the cars sold. That is what appears to be "the problem" with SMG cars...when it fails, you're stuck dead in the water, oftentimes at the most inopportune locations in traffic or on the highway.

Note that you will find, by far, the most available year is 2008; that is because the 2008 M5 production year ran from Mar 2007 through July 2008.

Confine your search to 2009-2010 6MT cars if you want the most reliable versions. Your problem will be that in 2010 very few cars were imported to the US, sales were very poor that year for the M5. The data by year is on the M5board someplace.
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      05-11-2014, 06:24 AM   #15
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Nearly pulled the trigger on a beautiful Sepang one for the wife as a slightly larger babymobile. but decided against it. Not worth risking a stranding with the baby in tow. She is not the type to be patient with mechanical failures. If you are it is a ton of car for the money and one of the few truly exotic supersedans out there. If willing and able to keep it on the road I think they will be extremely rare sights in the future as they get chopped up for parts,ruined by bargain purchasers or crashed. I think we are faaaaar from the market's bottom on a good example for the smgs though I suspect the 6speeds will bottom in the 30's for a good one. Of course beat examples will always be cheap but that's true for any car

The E90 has also not been superseded by its replacement yet. When the widespread F8x availability happens expect the prices to drop $5k or so
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      05-11-2014, 10:05 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
If you want to know more than you ever wanted to know, go to the M5board E60 section and read posts/threads by jcolley, B767capt, and a few others.

A number of years ago it was posted about the SMG M5/M6 being the most-towed BMW in BMWNA's history as a percent of the cars sold. That is what appears to be "the problem" with SMG cars...when it fails, you're stuck dead in the water, oftentimes at the most inopportune locations in traffic or on the highway.

Note that you will find, by far, the most available year is 2008; that is because the 2008 M5 production year ran from Mar 2007 through July 2008.

Confine your search to 2009-2010 6MT cars if you want the most reliable versions. Your problem will be that in 2010 very few cars were imported to the US, sales were very poor that year for the M5. The data by year is on the M5board someplace.
Whoa, that's a crazy statistic. Thanks for the info, I'll definitely do some more research and check out m5board. As much as the SMG scares me, I saw one today with a custome blue and black rims. GOD that thing looked beastly. It would be a dream come true. But it looks like the M3 will be a better buy due to its reliability. And honestly, I love the e90s as well. Looks like I've got some surfing to do.
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      05-11-2014, 10:46 AM   #17
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I almost bought a 2010 E60. I could not get past the clunky SMG when driving around town. I drove a bunch of the E60s thinking I could get used to it...I couldn't. It was like being in the car with someone who was new to stick shift.

The 6MT is not that great either since they had to basically take the E39's box and install it due to customer demand. The gearing is all wrong so you keep falling out of the powerband with each shift.

The M5 is a quirky car. I can respect it for what it is, but the M3 is the better all-around performer.
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      05-11-2014, 02:21 PM   #18
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I almost bought a 2010 E60. I could not get past the clunky SMG when driving around town. I drove a bunch of the E60s thinking I could get used to it...I couldn't. It was like being in the car with someone who was new to stick shift.

The 6MT is not that great either since they had to basically take the E39's box and install it due to customer demand. The gearing is all wrong so you keep falling out of the powerband with each shift.

The M5 is a quirky car. I can respect it for what it is, but the M3 is the better all-around performer.
Have you driven a 6MT E60 M5? I wouldn't say you're falling out of the powerband at all, especially the 1-2-3-4 shifts. The car hauls ass and spins 2nd hard (DSC off) on a hard 1-2 upshift and will catch a good bit of rubber on the 2-3 upshift as well. If you look at the acceleration curves in Cartest 2000 sim, in some speed ranges the 6MT has a leg up on the SMG (like the middle of 2nd gear in the 6MT for example). Anyway, that hasn't been my experience driving one in anger.
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      05-11-2014, 04:05 PM   #19
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Have you driven a 6MT E60 M5? I wouldn't say you're falling out of the powerband at all, especially the 1-2-3-4 shifts. The car hauls ass and spins 2nd hard (DSC off) on a hard 1-2 upshift and will catch a good bit of rubber on the 2-3 upshift as well. If you look at the acceleration curves in Cartest 2000 sim, in some speed ranges the 6MT has a leg up on the SMG (like the middle of 2nd gear in the 6MT for example). Anyway, that hasn't been my experience driving one in anger.

Yes, I drove two 6MTs. Chirping the tires has very little to do with the powerband itself. My point is that the revs drop too far on the 6MT on certain shifts, meaning you lose time getting into the powerband that's higher up in the rev range. The SMG gearing is more optimal for the car.
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      05-11-2014, 05:47 PM   #20
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I thought about the e60 M5 before I bought the M3.
I ended up with M3.
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      05-11-2014, 06:54 PM   #21
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Yes, I drove two 6MTs. Chirping the tires has very little to do with the powerband itself. My point is that the revs drop too far on the 6MT on certain shifts, meaning you lose time getting into the powerband that's higher up in the rev range. The SMG gearing is more optimal for the car.
Well, that doesn't play out in acceleration times nor my experience driving the car. A 6MT owner on the M5board with a totally stock car just posted 1/4 mile slips recently with et and traps right on the SMG cars (which of course matches up with Cartest2000 sims myself and others have done on 6MT vs SMG showing the difference at the end of the 1/4 to be less than 0.3 seconds). Of course you have to be an excellent 6MT driver to shift quickly to obtain those times. My point in the upshift 2nd spinning and 3rd grabbing rubber was in reference to your statement that the car falls out of its powerband which is definitely does not.

Look at the speeds in gear maps overlays of 6MT vs SMG in Cartest as it's a great depiction of what you're trying to describe except it doesn't show the big gaps you think exist.
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      05-11-2014, 08:29 PM   #22
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Well, that doesn't play out in acceleration times nor my experience driving the car. A 6MT owner on the M5board with a totally stock car just posted 1/4 mile slips recently with et and traps right on the SMG cars (which of course matches up with Cartest2000 sims myself and others have done on 6MT vs SMG showing the difference at the end of the 1/4 to be less than 0.3 seconds). Of course you have to be an excellent 6MT driver to shift quickly to obtain those times. My point in the upshift 2nd spinning and 3rd grabbing rubber was in reference to your statement that the car falls out of its powerband which is definitely does not.

Look at the speeds in gear maps overlays of 6MT vs SMG in Cartest as it's a great depiction of what you're trying to describe except it doesn't show the big gaps you think exist.


The 6 speed was an afterthought. It's like driving a 6 speed versus a dct m3. There's a noticeable diff to getting an extra gear
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