BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
INDustry distribution
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-25-2012, 08:12 PM   #45
mdosu
Banned
 
Drives: Double Vanos'd Civic-M3
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Francisco

Posts: 8,517
iTrader: (6)

You're aware that they won't let you out on the track by yourself. You have to do the HPDE events where an instructor sits in with you to teach you lines. You'll have plenty of room and time in the novice group.

Generally crashes you see and hear are mostly from the guys running with no instructors in the advanced group. They're more audacious and generally more aggressive.
mdosu is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      07-25-2012, 09:25 PM   #46
FormulaMMM
Major
 
FormulaMMM's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Midwest

Posts: 1,283
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
Uh no, they have almost all been with BMWCCA. I think most people that give this response either drastically underestimate the risk, or are running at hugely safer tracks with no armco/trees for miles and tons of runoff. At BMWCCA Ofest 2 years ago at Road America, I recall at least 2-3 cars with very significant damage, including an almost brand new M3. Granted, quite a few of the incidents I recall happened at Road America, which has the rep of being a somewhat more dangerous track, but I've seen incidents at virtually all the local tracks I've run at.

I also mention that it's not uncommon that we have to run events on wet tracks, which as I said, seems to dramatically increase risk of incident. I notice you are in CA, perhaps this is a far rarer occurence for you (wet track), which could partically account for the differences we are seeing.
How many of those incidents involved a novice driver with instructor?

Just to offer a different perspective, I'm coming up on my 12th event this weekend, and I've seen only 2 incidents. Both were in advanced run groups -- one at Road America, the other Homestead Miami. In both cases, walls in close proximity to the track were partially to blame.
__________________
DCT E90 M3: Akrapovic Slip-On, Stoptech ST-40 Front + Pagid RS29 | Stock Rear + Stoptech SP, Apex EC-7 18x10 ET25 + Nitto NT01 275/35/18 (for track), tbd...
Past: Velos Designwerks Tune, Megan Racing Catback then Akrapovic Evolution, Macht Schnell Filter
FormulaMMM is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-25-2012, 09:32 PM   #47
LateBraking
Brigadier General
 
LateBraking's Avatar
 
Drives: Reliable Cars
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Pacific Standard Time

Posts: 3,878
iTrader: (27)

I've ran 25-30 events and only witnessesed 3 accidents, and only 1 totaled car IIRC. Plenty of mis-shifting an blowing motors and rods and stuff though from civics and miatas and the like. I agree with the earlier comment, if there's that many major incidents then there is something seriously wrong with the organizers. Or maybe people get a false of security running with BMWCCA and push far past their limits. I unno what it is, but that should not be the norm, and people should seek out other organizers, tracks, or get some serious driver education an keep their egos in check. Ego is HUGE when it comes to track safety for everyone IMO. iPhone sorry or spelling.
LateBraking is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-25-2012, 10:36 PM   #48
1MOREMOD
2014 Track Days - 9|Ridge 1:54:61|Pacific 1:35:72
 
1MOREMOD's Avatar
 
Drives: Race car->
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: check your mirrors

Posts: 11,876
iTrader: (5)

I see a lot of incidents as well. Most are minor offs with little damage but I would say an average of one big incident each time I've been out including 3 on my first day out. Spooked me a little. I have had 2 offs myself, one due to bad brake fade and one a tail happy car dropping a wheel resulting in a hub bent wheel. Also a couple near spins with dsc off in the rain. Most bigger incidents tend to be pro 3 cars it seems. Overall I still feel it is very safe and much more controlled environment than the street and don't even bother anywhere but the track.
__________________

02 Tiag e46 M3|6MT|GC plates|MCS c.o.|GC bars|GC race control arms|GC bushings & bearings|BW eng. & tran. mounts|subframe kit|BW race shifter|BW Jaffster|Euro header|BW race|K&N c.a.i.|Epic race tune|Rouge pulleys|Seibon CF hood|CSL bumper|ST-40|XR-2|SS lines|half cage|Recaro profi|Profi 2 harness|BMWpedals|BW studs|
1MOREMOD is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-25-2012, 10:41 PM   #49
LateBraking
Brigadier General
 
LateBraking's Avatar
 
Drives: Reliable Cars
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Pacific Standard Time

Posts: 3,878
iTrader: (27)

Man, where the hell do you guys go tracking, at the Nordschleife? It's incredible how dangerous and uncontrolled your track environments are. I'm glad I've done everything with Speed Ventures, Speed District, and Buttonwillow's own HDPE school. Southern California is an excellent environment to do this in as far as I've experienced. But I'm scared to go tracking in like, Florida or something, due to fear that there will be no organization or control, and it'll be like the wild west or something, and nothing but bedlam.

Edit: I know of one SoCal track organizer that just seems to have incidents every time, but they're also one of the top 3 cheapest organizers that I know. Pay to play.

Last edited by LateBraking; 07-25-2012 at 11:27 PM.
LateBraking is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-25-2012, 10:41 PM   #50
Mozgov
Enlisted Member
 
Mozgov's Avatar
 
Drives: E46 M3
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Socal

Posts: 47
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
OP, definitely go to the track where you'll have an instructor riding shotgun. It's not especially cheap, particularly if you have to buy dedicated track insurance because your normal policy won't cover it (mine does, one of many reasons I'm with Amica), but IMHO it's one of the best fun-per-dollar experiences available.

As for mods, I would say if you've never been to the track before, you could probably track this car bone stock and be just fine; just get your car inspected beforehand to make sure everything's in working order and you have sufficient tire tread, brake pad thickness, fluid levels and "newness", etc. If you keep with it and get better, brake fluid will be your first issue (spongy pedal), which can be fixed by running something like ATE Super Blue or Type 200 (same stuff, just different colors), and then brake pads will probably be next to deal with fade. Then much later on, suspension mods might be considered to address understeer (once you can handle neutral handling), then OPTIONALLY tires if you want to run slicks and are willing to pay for them, in which case you'd probably want a BBK to deal with the extra brake heat generated from all that extra grip, and then FINALLY engine mods MAYBE -- but all of that would be much later. Notice how suspension, BBKs, and engine mods are LAST in that list even though they're the mods a lot of people jump straight for, skipping over the less sexy items? Yeah, that's how you separate real drivers from poseurs. The first three mods of any real driver and the ones that make the largest speed difference by far are the driver, the driver, and the driver.

As you get better, the habit does indeed get more expensive since brakes and tires wear faster, fuel economy decreases, you start thinking about more expensive mods, and of course you'll want to go more often. But even if you don't become a regular, it's a great thing to do in this car even once because the M3 can't be fully appreciated when confined to public roads, especially US roads. The track is what it was built for, after all!

As others have said, just leave your ego at the track entrance, keep DSC on to start, listen to what your instructor is telling you, and don't hesitate to let people pass you so you can focus on what you're doing rather than what's behind you. Accidents under those conditions are highly unlikely, but a fun time is virtually guaranteed. Oh, and the more you drive on the track, the more mellow you'll be on the street -- then you'll stop thinking about doing stupid things like treating a canyon road as a track and being paranoid about cops.
You sir have spoken my mind before i had the chance. Everything you said is spot on and what I would have said.
Mozgov is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-25-2012, 11:47 PM   #51
aus
Major General
 
Drives: Odysse
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seal Beach, CA

Posts: 7,298
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
Uh no, they have almost all been with BMWCCA. I think most people that give this response either drastically underestimate the risk, or are running at hugely safer tracks with no armco/trees for miles and tons of runoff. At BMWCCA Ofest 2 years ago at Road America, I recall at least 2-3 cars with very significant damage, including an almost brand new M3. Granted, quite a few of the incidents I recall happened at Road America, which has the rep of being a somewhat more dangerous track, but I've seen incidents at virtually all the local tracks I've run at.

I also mention that it's not uncommon that we have to run events on wet tracks, which as I said, seems to dramatically increase risk of incident. I notice you are in CA, perhaps this is a far rarer occurence for you (wet track), which could partically account for the differences we are seeing.
Damn dude!!! CCa events?
Were they mostly in the advanced groups? In D and C, you're barely getting up to speed. Group A guys can be really fast.

.
__________________
Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
aus is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-25-2012, 11:52 PM   #52
LateBraking
Brigadier General
 
LateBraking's Avatar
 
Drives: Reliable Cars
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Pacific Standard Time

Posts: 3,878
iTrader: (27)

Guess BMWCCA track events isn't all that it's hyped up to be? I hear Porsche's club is actually fantastic, and you don't need to be a Porsche owner to attend either.
LateBraking is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-25-2012, 11:56 PM   #53
luis_m3
Low Pro...
 
Drives: 2011 E90 AW
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Arizona

Posts: 965
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LateBraking View Post
Man, where the hell do you guys go tracking, at the Nordschleife? It's incredible how dangerous and uncontrolled your track environments are. I'm glad I've done everything with Speed Ventures, Speed District, and Buttonwillow's own HDPE school. Southern California is an excellent environment to do this in as far as I've experienced. But I'm scared to go tracking in like, Florida or something, due to fear that there will be no organization or control, and it'll be like the wild west or something, and nothing but bedlam.

Edit: I know of one SoCal track organizer that just seems to have incidents every time, but they're also one of the top 3 cheapest organizers that I know. Pay to play.
To be honest, the Nordschleife is the only track I have been to. I have 13 laps thus far, and knock on wood that I don't get into an accident in the future.
Now, I am a novice driver and I'm fully concious of that fact; therefore, I don't push "my" limits. I don't go there to race anyone, just to have some fun with my car. I've had a couple scary moments, but nothing close to being serious.
OP, track your car, you'll have a blast. Just make sure you understand your limits and don't try to keep up with the rest; some people have been doing this for a long time and know what they're doing. I have had Civics and Integras run past me on the track, but I knew they knew the track inside out (you could tell). Well, good luck and enjoy your M for what it was meant to do outside the streets!
luis_m3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2012, 12:00 AM   #54
LateBraking
Brigadier General
 
LateBraking's Avatar
 
Drives: Reliable Cars
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Pacific Standard Time

Posts: 3,878
iTrader: (27)

Quote:
Originally Posted by luis_m3 View Post
To be honest, the Nordschleife is the only track I have been to. I have 13 laps thus far, and knock on wood that I don't get into an accident in the future.
Now, I am a novice driver and I'm fully concious of that fact; therefore, I don't push "my" limits. I don't go there to race anyone, just to have some fun with my car. I've had a couple scary moments, but nothing close to being serious.
OP, track your car, you'll have a blast. Just make sure you understand your limits and don't try to keep up with the rest; some people have been doing this for a long time and know what they're doing. I have had Civics and Integras run past me on the track, but I knew they knew the track inside out (you could tell). Well, good luck and enjoy your M for what it was meant to do outside the streets!
Very nice, I actually want to try the Nordschleife one day. My friend got to try it in a Gumpert Apollo rental I think it was. I didn't mean to say Nordschleife = accidents, just that some of these guys sound like they run into an exploding car 'round every bend.
LateBraking is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2012, 12:40 AM   #55
aus
Major General
 
Drives: Odysse
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seal Beach, CA

Posts: 7,298
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LateBraking View Post
Guess BMWCCA track events isn't all that it's hyped up to be? I hear Porsche's club is actually fantastic, and you don't need to be a Porsche owner to attend either.
CCA events in Cali are very safe. I've been to LA/San Deigo, Central Valley and Golden Gate events and all were excellent.

You can run non Porsche cars with Porsche Owners Club but in Cali, you need to own one to join PCA.

.
__________________
Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
aus is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2012, 12:45 AM   #56
pnoiBmw
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: 2012 BMW M3
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Germany

Posts: 36
iTrader: (0)

I love the track. I'm lucky enough to live about 90 minutes from the Nurburgring in Germany. And most days they have time for anyone with a valid driver's license and a car to get on and drive. I think it is much safer and you are in a more controlled environment (less variables ie oncoming traffic, pedestrians, etc)

There are motorcycles and other drivers (sometimes crazy ones) on the track at the same time. But remember, "You don't have to drive super fast to thrill others, just fast enough to thrill yourself."

After all, if you get into an accident its you who will have to deal with it.
pnoiBmw is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2012, 09:28 AM   #57
M3 Esq
Lieutenant Colonel
 
M3 Esq's Avatar
 
Drives: Fast
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT

Posts: 1,669
iTrader: (4)

Garage List
I am just starting out so I run in the novice group with BMWCCA at LImerock. Novice drivers are always accompanied by instructors. I have seen only one incident where an E46 m3 went a bit hard through the esses and ended up 30 yards out in the grass.

Also, with the CCA when you are not on the track you are in the classroom talking about braking, weight transfer, etc. not sure if anyone has mentioned that yet. It's very involved and the classroom helps a lot because you get to discuss what you felt on the track. It just makes you a safer driver overall because you start to learn the limits of the car. Now I have driven no where near the limits as a novice. I haven't even driven with DSC full off yet. But like others have said, check your ego at the door and it's a great time.
M3 Esq is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2012, 09:46 AM   #58
M3 Esq
Lieutenant Colonel
 
M3 Esq's Avatar
 
Drives: Fast
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT

Posts: 1,669
iTrader: (4)

Garage List
Yeah well I waived a VW Passat wagon through. I made a smart remark to my instructor that we were just overtaken by a wagon. He said "it's modified - just concentrate on your line!"

Edit: my point is you definitely have to check the ego.
M3 Esq is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2012, 11:19 AM   #59
LateBraking
Brigadier General
 
LateBraking's Avatar
 
Drives: Reliable Cars
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Pacific Standard Time

Posts: 3,878
iTrader: (27)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
CCA events in Cali are very safe. I've been to LA/San Deigo, Central Valley and Golden Gate events and all were excellent.

You can run non Porsche cars with Porsche Owners Club but in Cali, you need to own one to join PCA.

.
That's very relieving to hear. I'll probably stay away from Illinois track days but at least the CA chapter is all right.
LateBraking is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2012, 11:38 AM   #60
Mozgov
Enlisted Member
 
Mozgov's Avatar
 
Drives: E46 M3
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Socal

Posts: 47
iTrader: (0)

Pretty sure OP got out of here when he saw how many people track their cars. At the end of the day, don't do stupid things on a public road. Not so much for the safety of you, but for the safety of others around you. Spend $300 and get on the track. Beside the point but if you are driving an e9X M3, you should have some extra cash to spend on a track day.

Off topic but I live in your city and there are no excuses about not going out there. We have ~4 good tracks within driving distance that are safe with no walls so driving off the side is pretty safe. Come out to a track day sometime and have a blast.
Mozgov is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2012, 12:13 PM   #61
1MOREMOD
2014 Track Days - 9|Ridge 1:54:61|Pacific 1:35:72
 
1MOREMOD's Avatar
 
Drives: Race car->
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: check your mirrors

Posts: 11,876
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LateBraking View Post
Man, where the hell do you guys go tracking, at the Nordschleife? It's incredible how dangerous and uncontrolled your track environments are. I'm glad I've done everything with Speed Ventures, Speed District, and Buttonwillow's own HDPE school. Southern California is an excellent environment to do this in as far as I've experienced. But I'm scared to go tracking in like, Florida or something, due to fear that there will be no organization or control, and it'll be like the wild west or something, and nothing but bedlam.

Edit: I know of one SoCal track organizer that just seems to have incidents every time, but they're also one of the top 3 cheapest organizers that I know. Pay to play.
i think the number of incidents depends on the track. bmwcca is well run but at PR anyway if you go off there is a good chance there will be damage. ive watched a lot of these other track videos and im amazed at the margin for error you have. people go off with just as much regularity at your events as any other its just they drive thru the grass and get back on rather than hit an embankment, jersey barrier, or other structure.
__________________

02 Tiag e46 M3|6MT|GC plates|MCS c.o.|GC bars|GC race control arms|GC bushings & bearings|BW eng. & tran. mounts|subframe kit|BW race shifter|BW Jaffster|Euro header|BW race|K&N c.a.i.|Epic race tune|Rouge pulleys|Seibon CF hood|CSL bumper|ST-40|XR-2|SS lines|half cage|Recaro profi|Profi 2 harness|BMWpedals|BW studs|
1MOREMOD is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2012, 12:14 PM   #62
burakkose
Second Lieutenant
 
burakkose's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Istanbul

Posts: 223
iTrader: (0)

I don't know how it is in other countries, but here insurance is not working on tracks.
Well there are also cases, where something happens to the car on the track, then they take the car out, take the picture, and apply to insurance
__________________
burakkose is offline   Turkey
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2012, 12:37 PM   #63
LateBraking
Brigadier General
 
LateBraking's Avatar
 
Drives: Reliable Cars
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Pacific Standard Time

Posts: 3,878
iTrader: (27)

Quote:
Originally Posted by burakkose View Post
I don't know how it is in other countries, but here insurance is not working on tracks.
Well there are also cases, where something happens to the car on the track, then they take the car out, take the picture, and apply to insurance
u can do that with some cars but not ours, we have BMW assist that calls accidents in. plus that's fraud anyways, but lucky for us we can buy separate track day insurance, u pay a set amount and it covers a number of events per year

iPhone sorry spelling.
LateBraking is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2012, 12:41 PM   #64
burakkose
Second Lieutenant
 
burakkose's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Istanbul

Posts: 223
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LateBraking View Post
u can do that with some cars but not ours, we have BMW assist that calls accidents in. plus that's fraud anyways, but lucky for us we can buy separate track day insurance, u pay a set amount and it covers a number of events per year

iPhone sorry spelling.
well the bmw assist doesn't work in Turkey I guess
Well I consider the insurance as "mafia that gives you invoice" and we can't buy track insurances as far as I know we can only buy "international insurance" say in case of joining the m fest
__________________
burakkose is offline   Turkey
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2012, 12:58 PM   #65
swartzentruber
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2011 E90 M3
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Chicago NW suburbs, IL

Posts: 566
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chriszeh View Post
i think the number of incidents depends on the track. bmwcca is well run but at PR anyway if you go off there is a good chance there will be damage. ive watched a lot of these other track videos and im amazed at the margin for error you have. people go off with just as much regularity at your events as any other its just they drive thru the grass and get back on rather than hit an embankment, jersey barrier, or other structure.
I'm not sure why there is such a difference in reported incidents, but I'm glad at least one person here is echoing my sentiments. I'm not mentioning this to try to scare anyone off, but new drivers should be realistic about the risk, and frankly I think posts suggesting that novice drivers with an instructor will be fine putting their M3 out on the track without insurance are bad advice. I've seen too many incidents on a variety of tracks with a variety of clubs and a variety of run groups to suggest otherwise. The main things I can think possibly accounting for these differences are either "safer" tracks (more runoff, so you can go off and not hit anything), better weather, or maybe the SoCal people just get out to the track more, vs us upper midwest folks have the regular winter/early spring/late fall gaps of bad weather.

Yes, shit does happen, and yes, many of them probably were preventable, but they still happenened. At my most recent BMWCCA event this spring, someone put their pretty new 335i into the armco, probably 5-10k in damages. I already mentioned the 2010 ofest experience. I recall maybe 5 years ago an instructor flipping or almost flipping his students Z06 at RA, probably totalling it. I wasn't at the event, but maybe 5 or so years ago someone flipped and totalled their Mini at either Gingerman or Grattan after a bad brake failure. Probably 4 years ago, a student in my run group put his Corvette into the wall after a brake failure. A recent instructor I had mentioned spinning in the rain at Grattan and hitting the wall pretty good. So yes, I've seen or heard about plenty of incidents, enough to realize that while it's quite safe from a injury perspective, hitting walls has in my experience been a not uncommon occurence.
__________________
2011 Jerez Black/Fox Red E90 M3 DCT, ZCP, ZCV, ZCW, ZP2, BMW Apps
2004 VW R32 (track car)
swartzentruber is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2012, 02:51 PM   #66
chili cheese
Captain
 
chili cheese's Avatar
 
Drives: '13 E92 M3, Santorini Blue
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southern CA

Posts: 958
iTrader: (6)

Yes, the track is a terrible idea, it sucks, don't try it. It's already too crowded out there.
chili cheese is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:27 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST