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      07-29-2012, 04:36 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bholloway View Post
It's funny how so many M3 owners on here are such upper middle class elitests.People who work hard to buy a nice M3, but then start bashing everything else, even though they haven't driven or will probably ever have the means to drive or afford a real high end sports car. Yes I know that there are some people on this forum who own or have driven Ferraris, Porches, etc yet they seem to be the ones with the most balanced and realistic opinions. It's one thing to love your M3 as it is a great car, but theres no reason to bash on Mustangs, especially when most of the newer ones are faster than in M3 both in the straights and around the ring.

Some M3 owners (and most on this forum) have such a tendency to to look down on anything that's not a M3 which really doesn't make sense. The M3 is really just factory modded 3 series with a big engine...ok stop your bitching and let me explain (becasue I know that's what you're doing in your head). The M3 isn't designed to be a true performance car and thats the god damned truth. Is it a great sportscar... yes it absolutely is, but its not a car that was purely designed for performance the way a Porsche is, or the way a Ferrari is, or even a GT500. Its pretty fast, and good in turns, but it's not beating any true sportscar around a track. Its a jack of all trades and master of none.

Some M3 owners might concede this, and then point to how the M3 is more sophisticated and way more luxurious than any mustang or corvette could ever be and that's somewhat true. But again whats the price range for the M3. 40k at the low end used to around 80k new? The interior of your M3 isn't Bentley or Rolls Royce quality and its largely the same as any other BMW sedan. Sure the interface is clean and the leather is nice, but let's not fool ourselves by extolling the BMW interior and build quality because the leather thats in the M3 is the same thats in any 328i you see on the road.

The BMW M division has gone waaayyyyy downhill and no longer are they building true performance cars, but rather a car for a middle aged man to buy for around 50-60k to pretend he has an awesome car. And for that price it is. But no one who has 200k to spend on a car would look at an M3 over any other sports car. Its good for its price range, but lets leave it at that.
... and I generally hate quoting other people's posts and saying I agree as I think that's a cheap way to get out of posting your opinions because you are (a) too lazy and / or (b) don't know how. However, I agree with everything you have said.

Great post. Well said.
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      07-29-2012, 06:04 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by DiscoZ View Post
... and I generally hate quoting other people's posts and saying I agree as I think that's a cheap way to get out of posting your opinions because you are (a) too lazy and / or (b) don't know how. However, I agree with everything you have said.

Great post. Well said.
You guys take this forum way too seriously. It's an m3 forum and it's on the internet. What do you expect? These types of venues do not attract the group hug/United Nations types. It will be filled with m3 fanboys and other car nuts with extreme points of view protected by the internet's anonymity. Just enjoy the ride...
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      07-29-2012, 06:50 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bholloway View Post
It's funny how so many M3 owners on here are such upper middle class elitests.People who work hard to buy a nice M3, but then start bashing everything else, even though they haven't driven or will probably ever have the means to drive or afford a real high end sports car. Yes I know that there are some people on this forum who own or have driven Ferraris, Porches, etc yet they seem to be the ones with the most balanced and realistic opinions. It's one thing to love your M3 as it is a great car, but theres no reason to bash on Mustangs, especially when most of the newer ones are faster than in M3 both in the straights and around the ring.

Some M3 owners (and most on this forum) have such a tendency to to look down on anything that's not a M3 which really doesn't make sense. The M3 is really just factory modded 3 series with a big engine...ok stop your bitching and let me explain (becasue I know that's what you're doing in your head). The M3 isn't designed to be a true performance car and thats the god damned truth. Is it a great sportscar... yes it absolutely is, but its not a car that was purely designed for performance the way a Porsche is, or the way a Ferrari is, or even a GT500. Its pretty fast, and good in turns, but it's not beating any true sportscar around a track. Its a jack of all trades and master of none.

Some M3 owners might concede this, and then point to how the M3 is more sophisticated and way more luxurious than any mustang or corvette could ever be and that's somewhat true. But again whats the price range for the M3. 40k at the low end used to around 80k new? The interior of your M3 isn't Bentley or Rolls Royce quality and its largely the same as any other BMW sedan. Sure the interface is clean and the leather is nice, but let's not fool ourselves by extolling the BMW interior and build quality because the leather thats in the M3 is the same thats in any 328i you see on the road.

The BMW M division has gone waaayyyyy downhill and no longer are they building true performance cars, but rather a car for a middle aged man to buy for around 50-60k to pretend he has an awesome car. And for that price it is. But no one who has 200k to spend on a car would look at an M3 over any other sports car. Its good for its price range, but lets leave it at that.
Deserves award for post of the week/month/year.

And on topic... my dad just picked up a '13 GT500 a few weeks ago which I have already driven several times. Great car, feels/looks much better made than I expected. Handling is much improved with the Bilstein 2 mode adjustable suspension, I found it to be quite well behaved on normal roads and very responsive for its size/weight in sport mode. Not much needs to be said about the engine other than wow.
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      09-27-2012, 06:13 PM   #48
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My 2 cents...

I was looking at trading in my X5 for the Ford GT 500. Here is what I learned along the way.

1) forget about BMW. If you go looking at the Ford with "BMW" on the brain, you will loose interest instantly

2) you have to appreciate what "American muscle" means. it's meant to be fun, and give thrills, not really sophistication and prestigue

3) the Ford GT500 brakes become less reliable as they heat up, making it dangerous in any situation

4) the Ford GT500 oil temperature is yellow after the first lap, dang ned RED by the end of the 2nd lap. Something just isn't right with that. Scary even.

5) simply put, it's an engine looking for a chassis ... and I don't think it's found it yet.

6) I doubt the M3 would "murder" it on the track, but because of the Ford flaws, thumbs up to M3

... but as for myself, I'm now leading to the - GASP - beauty in the picture.
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      09-28-2012, 01:32 PM   #49
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For me, it's not about the .8 seconds quicker to 60 or the 2 mph trap speed, or the 1 second faster around a road course. Does that REALLY matter? Most of us are not pro drivers and simply will never drive any car we own to within a inch of it's limits. We'll reach our level of incompetence WAY before that. I've owned Mustangs, Firebirds, Trans Ams, Dodge Daytona (gag... sorry), a e36 M3, e46 330ci, '08 M Coupe, a 135i, and now have an e93 M3.

I pick my cars for reasons other than strictly HP numbers of 0-60 times. Sure, I don't want a dog, but the difference of less than a second to 60 is insignificant to me. I picked the M3 because of the styling, the looks, the handling, the interior, the sound, and the rarity (in addition to the HP). It's the whole package for me. I don't think any American muscle car can match the overall package. I don't mind paying more - I don't buy new anyways. There will always be a car that's faster out there. I'm ecstatic with my M3.
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      09-28-2012, 01:40 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james33 View Post
For me, it's not about the .8 seconds quicker to 60 or the 2 mph trap speed, or the 1 second faster around a road course. Does that REALLY matter? Most of us are not pro drivers and simply will never drive any car we own to within a inch of it's limits. We'll reach our level of incompetence WAY before that. I've owned Mustangs, Firebirds, Trans Ams, Dodge Daytona (gag... sorry), a e36 M3, e46 330ci, '08 M Coupe, a 135i, and now have an e93 M3.

I pick my cars for reasons other than strictly HP numbers of 0-60 times. Sure, I don't want a dog, but the difference of less than a second to 60 is insignificant to me. I picked the M3 because of the styling, the looks, the handling, the interior, the sound, and the rarity (in addition to the HP). It's the whole package for me. I don't think any American muscle car can match the overall package. I don't mind paying more - I don't buy new anyways. There will always be a car that's faster out there. I'm ecstatic with my M3.
Finally someone with a down to earth response. Love it
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      09-30-2012, 10:26 AM   #51
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I want one. Still waiting for a dealer that will sell me one for MSRP and not 15K markup. I think it would be fun and more power than my CGT. It would be a blast. A buddy let me drive his 2010 Cobra and man that thing was fun. I definitely want it in addition to the garage. Couldnt give a shit about the "whole package" or the stigma like most M3 owners that a car has to do everything known to man and basically give you a damn blowjob and back massage to be happy with it. The Cobra was a blast to drive. Its a muscle car. Some people just wont appreciate it, but for those who do, you know where I am coming from. However if Ford keeps F'ing around with me I will just hold off for the Viper.
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      09-30-2012, 12:32 PM   #52
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It's funny, I'm kind of in a similar predicament. I'm very, very intrigued by the Boss 302, but every time I think about making the switch I think to myself "do I really want to trade my BMW for a Ford?" I don't know why either, because the Boss is an amazing car, it's almost like that thought process is engrained.
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      09-30-2012, 01:44 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Optherion View Post
I want one. Still waiting for a dealer that will sell me one for MSRP and not 15K markup. I think it would be fun and more power than my CGT. It would be a blast. A buddy let me drive his 2010 Cobra and man that thing was fun. I definitely want it in addition to the garage. Couldnt give a shit about the "whole package" or the stigma like most M3 owners that a car has to do everything known to man and basically give you a damn blowjob and back massage to be happy with it. The Cobra was a blast to drive. Its a muscle car. Some people just wont appreciate it, but for those who do, you know where I am coming from. However if Ford keeps F'ing around with me I will just hold off for the Viper.
The problem may be that you're only looking for the car in your area. Everyone knows that they try to rip people off on the west coast. Expand your search to other states and you will definitely find the GT500 for MSRP or less.
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      09-30-2012, 04:59 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Optherion View Post
Couldnt give a shit about the "whole package"
Haha, good one - if I had the stable you have, I'd also look for a car that's different and special in any particular way rather than moderately good at most things. You are in a position to buy cars for their quirks and ​character rather than for versatility or lack of faults. From this perspective, GT500 is definitely more special then M3.
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      09-30-2012, 05:37 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by MaxL View Post
Haha, good one - if I had the stable you have, I'd also look for a car that's different and special in any particular way rather than moderately good at most things. You are in a position to buy cars for their quirks and ​character rather than for versatility or lack of faults. From this perspective, GT500 is definitely more special then M3.
Agreed - if I had the means to own hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of cars, I'd have a GT500 too, as well as GT-R, Aston Martin, a few Porsches, a couple of Lotus, etc. Not knocking the GT-500 or any other car. I just think too many people base a purchase decision on 0-60, qtr mile time, or hp numbers. There's a lot more to a car than that.
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      09-30-2012, 08:00 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by checkmate
Quote:
Originally Posted by bholloway View Post
It's funny how so many M3 owners on here are such upper middle class elitests.People who work hard to buy a nice M3, but then start bashing everything else, even though they haven't driven or will probably ever have the means to drive or afford a real high end sports car. Yes I know that there are some people on this forum who own or have driven Ferraris, Porches, etc yet they seem to be the ones with the most balanced and realistic opinions. It's one thing to love your M3 as it is a great car, but theres no reason to bash on Mustangs, especially when most of the newer ones are faster than in M3 both in the straights and around the ring.

Some M3 owners (and most on this forum) have such a tendency to to look down on anything that's not a M3 which really doesn't make sense. The M3 is really just factory modded 3 series with a big engine...ok stop your bitching and let me explain (becasue I know that's what you're doing in your head). The M3 isn't designed to be a true performance car and thats the god damned truth. Is it a great sportscar... yes it absolutely is, but its not a car that was purely designed for performance the way a Porsche is, or the way a Ferrari is, or even a GT500. Its pretty fast, and good in turns, but it's not beating any true sportscar around a track. Its a jack of all trades and master of none.

Some M3 owners might concede this, and then point to how the M3 is more sophisticated and way more luxurious than any mustang or corvette could ever be and that's somewhat true. But again whats the price range for the M3. 40k at the low end used to around 80k new? The interior of your M3 isn't Bentley or Rolls Royce quality and its largely the same as any other BMW sedan. Sure the interface is clean and the leather is nice, but let's not fool ourselves by extolling the BMW interior and build quality because the leather thats in the M3 is the same thats in any 328i you see on the road.

The BMW M division has gone waaayyyyy downhill and no longer are they building true performance cars, but rather a car for a middle aged man to buy for around 50-60k to pretend he has an awesome car. And for that price it is. But no one who has 200k to spend on a car would look at an M3 over any other sports car. Its good for its price range, but lets leave it at that.
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      09-30-2012, 08:26 PM   #57
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      09-30-2012, 08:30 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xfirer1guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex07M3 View Post
Ugly, cheesy and cheap looking!
Yep... This pretty much sums it up. It'll take a lot of redesigning by Ford and GM to shake that red neck stereotype associated with the Mustang and Corvette. BMW is more than just a car... its prestige, its classy, its refined, its "The Ultimate Driving Machine!!"

Wow that's not a valid enough reason, you probably wouldn't even call it "The Ultimate Driving Machine" if that wasn't BMW's slogan...smh sounding very 1-Dimensional right bout now...
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      09-30-2012, 10:20 PM   #59
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im not into the bulky styling of mustangs...... but i must say that for the price... thats one hell of a package.

I think the M3 is like nothing i've ever driven... but i do find myself longing for more G-force when i step on it here and there. For this reason i'm dying for a SC but just can't afford the expense right now. The M3 with 100 more ponies/lbs of torque makes the perfect car IMO... but hey its just a subjective opinion at the end of the day. To each its own.
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      10-01-2012, 09:15 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxL View Post
Haha, good one - if I had the stable you have, I'd also look for a car that's different and special in any particular way rather than moderately good at most things. You are in a position to buy cars for their quirks and ​character rather than for versatility or lack of faults. From this perspective, GT500 is definitely more special then M3.
You sir, are absolutely correct. The M3 does many things very well. Its very well balanced and, BMW's have always been my choice of a daily driver. From the 3 series to the 7. But the GT500 at its price and power brings back memories nothing else can. Unless I were to buy something from 1968-1970.

However my opinion is in the few because most people here seem to want to drive these performance cars everyday. I just dont know how you guys do it. Im not even old yet, but I find the relaxing comfort of the x5 seats and cls luxury my first choice when leaving for work. Saturday at 7am while having coffee, now that's a whole different story.
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      01-20-2013, 03:46 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bholloway View Post
It's funny how so many M3 owners on here are such upper middle class elitests.People who work hard to buy a nice M3, but then start bashing everything else, even though they haven't driven or will probably ever have the means to drive or afford a real high end sports car. Yes I know that there are some people on this forum who own or have driven Ferraris, Porches, etc yet they seem to be the ones with the most balanced and realistic opinions. It's one thing to love your M3 as it is a great car, but theres no reason to bash on Mustangs, especially when most of the newer ones are faster than in M3 both in the straights and around the ring.

Some M3 owners (and most on this forum) have such a tendency to to look down on anything that's not a M3 which really doesn't make sense. The M3 is really just factory modded 3 series with a big engine...ok stop your bitching and let me explain (becasue I know that's what you're doing in your head). The M3 isn't designed to be a true performance car and thats the god damned truth. Is it a great sportscar... yes it absolutely is, but its not a car that was purely designed for performance the way a Porsche is, or the way a Ferrari is, or even a GT500. Its pretty fast, and good in turns, but it's not beating any true sportscar around a track. Its a jack of all trades and master of none.

Some M3 owners might concede this, and then point to how the M3 is more sophisticated and way more luxurious than any mustang or corvette could ever be and that's somewhat true. But again whats the price range for the M3. 40k at the low end used to around 80k new? The interior of your M3 isn't Bentley or Rolls Royce quality and its largely the same as any other BMW sedan. Sure the interface is clean and the leather is nice, but let's not fool ourselves by extolling the BMW interior and build quality because the leather thats in the M3 is the same thats in any 328i you see on the road.

The BMW M division has gone waaayyyyy downhill and no longer are they building true performance cars, but rather a car for a middle aged man to buy for around 50-60k to pretend he has an awesome car. And for that price it is. But no one who has 200k to spend on a car would look at an M3 over any other sports car. Its good for its price range, but lets leave it at that.


I couldn't agree more. I love BMW's just as much as any bmw fanatic out there. But I do know when to give credit where its due. Driving my friends 5.0 mustang with a bassani exhaust just puts a stupid smile on my face.
I love my car and it will out handle that thing like no other and is about if not equally as fast in a straight line. But that engine noise and the overall package is pretty amazing to beat, nobody in their right mind can deny that.
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      01-20-2013, 08:07 AM   #62
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The Mustang is A great car, good bang for the buck, love the exterior styling, in my opinion the best looking Mustang yet but just not my cup of tea when looking at it as an overall package. The Z06 has a cheap interior but I would rather purchase one instead of the Mustang.
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      01-20-2013, 08:16 AM   #63
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650 HP super car speed capable Mustang for less than $70k (without mark-up), what's not to like? That thing would be a hoot to drive I guarantee it. I used to say Vettes were my favorite American cars if I had to get one, but this specific Mustang is up there.

As for the whole "better than M3" debate, it's not about the Stang being better, it's just plain different IMO. If you have many cars, then it's great to add this GT500 to the collection. If you have 1-2 cars to do everything (M3 + SUV), then the M3 is hard to beat in that respect.

I'm very interested to see though where stang beats the M3 on track? I haven't seen numbers to back this up. For example, C63 Black Series couldn't beat our M3 GTS on the track and the Black Series is a beast too.

Lastly, there's a ton of M3 haters in here for a M3 forum-that's just hilarious . While I agree the M3 isn't a true sports car like a Ferrari is, it's certainly not a 328i with a big engine - come on now...that's really generalizing something apparently you don't know much about.
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      01-20-2013, 10:17 AM   #64
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I had a 2012 GT500 for 10 months. Now I own a 2013 E92. Nuff said.
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      01-20-2013, 12:31 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SROC5 View Post
...I'm very interested to see though where stang beats the M3 on track? I haven't seen numbers to back this up. For example, C63 Black Series couldn't beat our M3 GTS on the track and the Black Series is a beast too...
Car & Driver Lightning Laps (at VIR):

2008 M3 (with recalcitrant auto), 3:05.6
2009 M3 (with slightly annoying auto and Michelin PSC+ sneakers), 3:05.4
2013 Shelby GT500 Mustang, 3:00.6
2013 Camaro SS (with 1LE handling package), 3:01.5
2013 MB C63 Black - 2:58.0
2013 Audi RS5 - 3:04.3
2012 Boss 302 LS - 3:02.8

Bruce

Edit: C & D hated the GT500 around VIR. The only reason it was quicker than the M3s was that it had insane power down the straights - but it was ugly everywhere else on track.

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 01-20-2013 at 01:54 PM.
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      01-20-2013, 01:21 PM   #66
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Bruce, you forgot the Camaro ZL1-2:57.0
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