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      07-24-2012, 05:57 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdnrockies View Post

Feel free to blow me off as an outsider, BUT, it is very apparent from someone with an unbiased opinion, that these threads are exactly what is taking the US of A down a scary path.


Instead of discussing solutions and what is best for the citizens of America, people get far too caught up in spewing bile towards each other based on whether they are Dem or Rep.
You cannot oversimplify what is happening in this great country of ours and distill it down to what you read in a few threads.

The path this country is being led down is not the result of the people who may have opposing views, it is the result of the current administration who has decided to carve a path of their own and neglect the principles of our founding fathers.

"A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government." Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by cssnms; 07-24-2012 at 01:00 PM.
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      07-24-2012, 07:43 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
You cannot oversimplify what is happening in this great country of our and distill it down what you read in a few threads.

The path this country is being led down is not the result of the people who may have opposing viewings, it is the result of the current administration who has decided to carve a path of their own and neglect the principles of our founding fathers.

"A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government." Thomas Jefferson
It's all George Bush's fault and don't you ever forget it
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      07-24-2012, 08:06 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
You cannot oversimplify what is happening in this great country of our and distill it down what you read in a few threads.

The path this country is being led down is not the result of the people who may have opposing viewings, it is the result of the current administration who has decided to carve a path of their own and neglect the principles of our founding fathers.
It's actually much simpler than that. It's statements like the above, which have no substance, and only cause division and don't solve anything.
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      07-24-2012, 08:09 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bolinp78 View Post
It's all George Bush's fault and don't you ever forget it
This interjection of your's got tired a long time ago. But thanks for the contribution!
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      07-24-2012, 08:17 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdnrockies View Post
I'm going to make this post in both of the currently active threads as I think they both embody what is wrong with the current political system in the US.

Feel free to blow me off as an outsider, BUT, it is very apparent from someone with an unbiased opinion, that these threads are exactly what is taking the US of A down a scary path.

Instead of discussing solutions and what is best for the citizens of America, people get far too caught up in spewing bile towards each other based on whether they are Dem or Rep. Like either party or any individual has all of the right answers and will magically solve all of the problems that society faces.

Doesn't anyone see what is wrong with this???

Virtually every thread in this forum degenerates into name calling and personal/character attacks. Sad really.
I think it all boils down to anonymity on the internet and mommy/daddy issues. None of the people in here would talk like that to each other in real life, I'm pretty certain of that.
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      07-24-2012, 08:27 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
It's actually much simpler than that. It's statements like the above, which have no substance, and only cause division and don't solve anything.
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      07-24-2012, 08:39 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
This interjection of your's got tired a long time ago. But thanks for the contribution!
I can't help it, it's been pounded into my brain so many times, over and over again. It's more of a reflex now, really.
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      07-24-2012, 10:51 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
Obama explains why these entrepreneurs need what govt provides, and how public education gave them the knowledge to become smart and enable their success. In short, even business owners need govt. That's it.
Government doesn't provide things. Government does not generate wealth. Government taxes the consequences of productivity, and then allocates the proceeds as it (through the process of congress) deems appropriate.

The statement in the quotes above has it backwards. Government needs what entrepreneurs provide; that is to say, wealth generation. Since government does not generate wealth, it relies on wealth generation by citizens and business to fund its activities. In the quoted example, taxes pay for "what government provides" as well as public education. Government needs business owners. Government could not function without them.
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      07-24-2012, 12:38 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselDiner View Post
Government doesn't provide things. Government does not generate wealth. Government taxes the consequences of productivity, and then allocates the proceeds as it (through the process of congress) deems appropriate.

The statement in the quotes above has it backwards. Government needs what entrepreneurs provide; that is to say, wealth generation. Since government does not generate wealth, it relies on wealth generation by citizens and business to fund its activities. In the quoted example, taxes pay for "what government provides" as well as public education. Government needs business owners. Government could not function without them.
Yes, and that clarification has been mentioned probably a half-dozen times in this thread. We (should) all implicitly understand that gov't gets its revenue from taxes, and that individuals and businesses generate the tax revenue. The very simple point of this never-ending thread is that, as a group, small business owners are anti-tax; and yet, Obama explains that these business owners have also benefitted from the things that their tax dollars have paid for, such as education and infrastructure.
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      07-24-2012, 02:56 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
It's actually much simpler than that. It's statements like the above, which have no substance, and only cause division and don't solve anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 128vertinnoho View Post
+1
Scotch, you amaze me. You have the "Balls" to hammer me about +1 no more than I have used it when your duckling uses it almost every time you post. Your holier than thou attitude and I'm smarter than anyone else is beyond belief.
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      07-24-2012, 04:16 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mspeasl View Post
Scotch, you amaze me. You have the "Balls" to hammer me about +1 no more than I have used it when your duckling uses it almost every time you post. Your holier than thou attitude and I'm smarter than anyone else is beyond belief.
Dope, I don't control anyone's posts except my own. What other people do is completely under their control - why the hell are you getting on my case?

And I've never made "smarter than anyone" claims - more bullshit from you. Yeah, go ahead and pull-up the post where I get sick of being called a stupid retarded moron, and clarify that, like most people here, I'm in the fairly-well educated range, and probably more-or-less as intelligent as the others here. That's quite a bit different from your spin.
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      07-24-2012, 04:18 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mspeasl View Post
Scotch, you amaze me. You have the "Balls" to hammer me about +1 no more than I have used it when your duckling uses it almost every time you post. Your holier than thou attitude and I'm smarter than anyone else is beyond belief.
Well based on this, I'd say he might be smarter than you

How in the hell can he control someone else's post? He gets on you because you offer little insight and do a +1 to posts, but you get on HIM when SOMEONE ELSE does a +1 to his posts?

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      07-24-2012, 08:18 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar View Post
Well based on this, I'd say he might be smarter than you

How in the hell can he control someone else's post? He gets on you because you offer little insight and do a +1 to posts, but you get on HIM when SOMEONE ELSE does a +1 to his posts?

I'm sure he is smarter than I am. I don't have a PHD in my field, but he likes to give one the impression he has and good for him. It takes alot of hard work to reach that level. My only gripe is he blows his horn way to much about it.
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      07-24-2012, 10:15 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mspeasl View Post
I'm sure he is smarter than I am. I don't have a PHD in my field, but he likes to give one the impression he has and good for him. It takes alot of hard work to reach that level. My only gripe is he blows his horn way to much about it.
I've mentioned both the field and the business I work in, it's no mystery. Don't have a PHD, have never blown my horn about my career. Although one especially patronizing poster assumed I'm not interested in F-16s.
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      07-25-2012, 11:03 AM   #125
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Not sure why Obama would dig this hole for himself. The business owners paid taxes when they had the "help" getting there. Why should they owe more now? Non business owners are "helped" by the same things everyday as well. It is their own fault if they don't succeed. Now this means that failure deserves a tax break?
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      07-25-2012, 12:10 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fokus45 View Post
Not sure why Obama would dig this hole for himself. The business owners paid taxes when they had the "help" getting there. Why should they owe more now? Non business owners are "helped" by the same things everyday as well. It is their own fault if they don't succeed. Now this means that failure deserves a tax break?
You're making this assumption that upper-income tax rates are at some fixed, calculated level. They're not. They've gone up and down over the years, sometimes in large swings, but they're near their lowest rate ever. Bush didn't use any reasoning to lower them, except that he wanted to get re-elected.

No, we don't want to punish any class of people, but my rate is higher than someone making less than me, so is that punishment? Of course not, it's just basic logic. If you take too much from those who literally can't afford it, you'll put them into poverty. If you take too much from me, I'll no longer be able to stimulate the economy, or pay for (part of) my kid's college. You've got to take it from somewhere, and the fact is that the wealth gap in this country is getting larger, and the middle class is sinking.
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      07-25-2012, 12:33 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
If you take too much from those who literally can't afford it, you'll put them into poverty. If you take too much from me, I'll no longer be able to stimulate the economy, or pay for (part of) my kid's college. You've got to take it from somewhere, and the fact is that the wealth gap in this country is getting larger, and the middle class is sinking.
How about if we stop unncessary spending, and run the Government like a business.

I think bills need to be stripped down and not allowed to have all the special interest BS attached to them so the real issues can be addressed and voted on and not killed because some partisan special interest addition.

I also think that government programs should have an expiration date (much like a term limit) so we are forced to reevaluate them and see how they have performed and if there is need for improvement or move to just scrap them.

These are different discussions.
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      07-25-2012, 01:45 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
Bush didn't use any reasoning to lower them, except that he wanted to get re-elected.

During the Bush years, globalization really started to take hold, more than during any previous administration. The benchmark for what constituted a competitive environment started really changing drastically.

I know that you really dont like it when I bring up outsourcing, because you have no argument for something that blows a huge hole in your position. The reality, whether you like it or not, is that Titans of Industry were being squeezed like never before, from forces outside their control. The incentive to relocate jobs offshore, and the ease of doing so, became greater than at any previous point in history. Yes, Dubya wanted to get re-elected, but he also had to consider that it would be in everyone's best interest to keep the creators of jobs as happy as he could, given how the screws were being put to them in other ways that were NOT his fault. (he did not lobby for China to turn a blind eye to humanitarian and environmental concerns, thus making it financially attractive to create widget factories there)

Previous presidents, both Democrat and Republican, certainly had no equivalent financial threat, that is a relatively new thing. Relocating half your operations to China or India was not a realistically viable option then. Competition can be a real bitch.
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      07-25-2012, 05:37 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
You're making this assumption that upper-income tax rates are at some fixed, calculated level. They're not. They've gone up and down over the years, sometimes in large swings, but they're near their lowest rate ever. Bush didn't use any reasoning to lower them, except that he wanted to get re-elected.

No, we don't want to punish any class of people, but my rate is higher than someone making less than me, so is that punishment? Of course not, it's just basic logic. If you take too much from those who literally can't afford it, you'll put them into poverty. If you take too much from me, I'll no longer be able to stimulate the economy, or pay for (part of) my kid's college. You've got to take it from somewhere, and the fact is that the wealth gap in this country is getting larger, and the middle class is sinking.
I do understand that. I just feel that attacking them is a silly way to go about things. Some people don't feel that he was attacking, but I do. Saying you had help is true in the sense that he kind of failed to deliver. It is just that most everybody has that same help. The people who sacrafice everything, work hard, and make it to the top, still did it with the same help. Therefore, they still did it on their own. It seems like all the people who were cheering that speech on were occupy type of people who are proud to be lazy and take from others. This also looks bad because most people can't stand that group of people. Besides, won't business owners just charge more for their goods to make up for the loss in taxes? That will put the lower classes in even worse shape.
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      07-25-2012, 11:24 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fokus45 View Post
I do understand that. I just feel that attacking them is a silly way to go about things. Some people don't feel that he was attacking, but I do. Saying you had help is true in the sense that he kind of failed to deliver. It is just that most everybody has that same help. The people who sacrafice everything, work hard, and make it to the top, still did it with the same help. Therefore, they still did it on their own. It seems like all the people who were cheering that speech on were occupy type of people who are proud to be lazy and take from others. This also looks bad because most people can't stand that group of people. Besides, won't business owners just charge more for their goods to make up for the loss in taxes? That will put the lower classes in even worse shape.
Yes.
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      07-26-2012, 08:27 AM   #131
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When President Obama gave this speech, he had one very important part of it he aid. It was the following:

"The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."

Notice that first part there "our INDIVIDUAL INITIATIVE". The president didn't say the gov't built your business. He is saying there are people and infrastructure out there that has helped you along the way as well. It is very similar to what Mitt Romney said to a group of Olympic Athletes:



I think this has been blown WAY out of proportion. But, isn't that what the right has been doing ever since President Obama took office. I'm sure the right-wingers will be finding more items like this to create more false outrage.
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      07-26-2012, 11:16 AM   #132
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The left does the exact same thing. They had their fun when Bush was in office. It just the rights turn at the moment. It is happening with Romney right now too. Obama just has more media access so it is easier for the right to find things to pick apart.
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